Do you have to believe in every word of the NT to be considered Messianic?

[anisavta]

It's one thing for a Jew to curse another Jew on the freeway. It's quite another for a Gentile so called Christian to say things like this:
"
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:
First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...
Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...
Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...
Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it..."
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
No Desert Rose - I will not cut one slack who wants to destroy my own People in the name of Jesus.

 

[Desert Rose]

I have found with age comes mellowing out. That which was so vitally important when I was 25 that I'd argue fret and stress barely receives a raised eyebrow now.

ha, makes me want to be that mellowed age now! i still get all worked up over issues
********
Anisavta, I hear you, he was a real putz. Imi dearest says that "I am being kind and compassionate enough to humanity" lately, so i increase kindness and tolerance . Dont know where the hippie rethoric comes from at the ripe old age of 64, but she usually has a point

I thought maybe ML just lost his mind at the end, or something.... There were lots of people like him, sadly.

 

[Lulav]

Well, I would believe that the first Jewish converts, in Jerusalem and environs, as well as the disciples, as recorded in the Gospels and Acts 1-9 or 10 or so and then in Acts 21:20 and on, were indeed the very first, first, first Messianic Jews, If they are not what would you call them? Obviously they had no NT in its completeness, if at all, other than probably oral carrying of the message. Therefore these Jews who had come to believe that Yeshua is The Messiah were "Messianic" in the ultimately original sense of the word "Messianic".

Therefore, it should be obvious, even to those that would deny it, that these orignal Messianic Jews were "Messianic" though they had no complete NT, but surely they were "Messianic". So,it follows that you can be "Messianic" without believing "every word of the NT". It's probably more important to BE Messianic than to worry about being considered this, that or whatever, by others.

HOWEVER, the New Testament, as a text, certainly is useful and informative to those learning of His Salvation and how to live His Way, and I think read and re-read to help continuing in The Way, rather than the mere man made machination of a Rome derived church(s) and its contrivances.

I would imagine that some may not like my response. Good!

An excellent argument counselor!

 

[Lulav]

ha, makes me want to be that mellowed age now! i still get all worked up over issues
********
Anisavta, I hear you, he was a real putz. Imi dearest says that "I am being kind and compassionate enough to humanity" lately, so i increase kindness and tolerance . Dont know where the hippie rethoric comes from at the ripe old age of 64, but she usually has a point

I thought maybe ML just lost his mind at the end, or something.... There were lots of people like him, sadly.

I wish I could believe that, but I think it was more than that. Far from maturity, it was about a man who wanted to get his own way. Someone that would go up against the RCC is definately one who won't back down, thinking they are always right, (he must have been an iNTJ)

He started out wanting to 'convert' the Jews to what he believed they should believe. When that didn't work and his plan to be the one in history to turn them to their Messiah, his true feelings could not be held back, and he let loose. It had to be their fault of course because he should have been able to convince them, had they been reasonable people.

Anyone that calls for burning G-ds word, I don't care what else they've written, it in league with the devil, period. And for him to say that we are devils, well that is very telling isn't it?

There is only one that wants to forbid or keep us from praising G-d and I'll give you one guess. Funny how he is telling 'Christians' to not allow Jews (from Judah, meaning 'praise' ) to not praise G-d!

 

[yedida]

I wish I could believe that, but I think it was more than that. Far from maturity, it was about a man who wanted to get his own way. Someone that would go up against the RCC is definately one who won't back down, thinking they are always right, (he must have been an iNTJ)

He started out wanting to 'convert' the Jews to what he believed they should believe. When that didn't work and his plan to be the one in history to turn them to their Messiah, his true feelings could not be held back, and he let loose. It had to be their fault of course because he should have been able to convince them, had they been reasonable people.

Anyone that calls for burning G-ds word, I don't care what else they've written, it in league with the devil, period. And for him to say that we are devils, well that is very telling isn't it?

There is only one that wants to forbid or keep us from praising G-d and I'll give you one guess. Funny how he is telling 'Christians' to not allow Jews (from Judah, meaning 'praise' ) to not praise G-d!

The majority of mainstream christianity would argue with me, but I think ML is a perfect picture of someone who lost/threw away his salvation. For it is plainly stated in 1 John that if there is hatred in your heart for your brethren (I consider that to be all other human beings) then the love of God is not in you. No love of God = no salvation. (Was he truly saved before, in his youth? He says yes, and it's not our job to judge yea or nay. Did he retain his salvation with such venomous hatred in him, it's not scriptural.)
Just my personal opinion (don't forget I'm a "feeler.")

 

[rsduncan]

The majority of mainstream christianity would argue with me, but I think ML is a perfect picture of someone who lost/threw away his salvation. For it is plainly stated in 1 John that if there is hatred in your heart for your brethren (I consider that to be all other human beings) then the love of God is not in you. No love of God = no salvation. (Was he truly saved before, in his youth? He says yes, and it's not our job to judge yea or nay. Did he retain his salvation with such venomous hatred in him, it's not scriptural.)
Just my personal opinion (don't forget I'm a "feeler.")

I define who is "my bretheren" somewhat differently:

1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
9And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
14Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
15But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
16And charged them that they should not make him known:
17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

...

 

[yedida]

I define who is "my bretheren" somewhat differently:
...

I have absolutely no argument with your assertion whatsoever.
Perhaps there's a different level of consideration, but man was created in the image of God, therefore all humanity is (at least for the most part) deserving of common courtesy and dignity, caring and love.

 

[rsduncan]

I have absolutely no argument with your assertion whatsoever.
Perhaps there's a different level of consideration, but man was created in the image of God, therefore all humanity is (at least for the most part) deserving of common courtesy and dignity, caring and love.

Agreed!!!

 

[visionary]

I have absolutely no argument with your assertion whatsoever.
Perhaps there's a different level of consideration, but man was created in the image of God, therefore all humanity is (at least for the most part) deserving of common courtesy and dignity, caring and love.

We may not be throwing pearls before swine.. but even dogs get crumbs from the Master's table... love your neighbors...

 

[yedida]

We may not be throwing pearls before swine.. but even dogs get crumbs from the Master's table... love your neighbors...

There you go.

 

[ContraMundum]

I dont see why we shouldnt cut that boy Martin some slack. He had a good heart, some anger issues,his brain maybe went a bit off in the later years.
Do you know how you and I gonna be if we live to see our old days?

As usual, DR, you are right. You know more about Martin Luther than the "experts" here do. He was very pro-Jewish in his early years- and was criticized for it- and was very anti-Jewish in his later years - and is criticized for it, and yet urged kindness towards the Jews in his last ever sermon (something not very well known)

The fact of the matter is this: can anyone name one single Christian leader of the 1500's that was not anti-semitic? Just one? Nope. I have checked and checked....not a single person prepared to be nice to the Jews. Yet, we have "Jesus was a Jew", and "How Christians Should Regard Moses" written in that time. So, ironically, the only "pro-Jewish" literature I have found from that era was written by....Martin Luther! This is proof that truth is stranger than fiction!

There is a very strange desire by many here to try to paint the myth that Luther was the worst of all the anti-semites. I believe this is because he is a high-profile figure, and every word he spoke seems to have gained an audience. However, as I have found, in the 1500s, there is not a single Christian teacher who was kind to the Jews. This was a sign of the times. I can't, for this reason, blame old Luther as the cause of the woe of the Jews. He tried- against the tide- to urge kindness to the Jews, at least for time, until the pressure of living under a death sentence got to him and he lashed out once more like his peers against the Jews. At least he demonstrated some change of heart four days before his death. Can't say that for the rest of Christendom.

 

[ContraMundum]

The majority of mainstream christianity would argue with me, but I think ML is a perfect picture of someone who lost/threw away his salvation. For it is plainly stated in 1 John that if there is hatred in your heart for your brethren (I consider that to be all other human beings) then the love of God is not in you. No love of God = no salvation. (Was he truly saved before, in his youth? He says yes, and it's not our job to judge yea or nay. Did he retain his salvation with such venomous hatred in him, it's not scriptural.)
Just my personal opinion (don't forget I'm a "feeler.")

Unfortunately for you the majority of Christians would disagree with you because they know more about the facts of the matter.

Luther was a man of his time (see above post of mine) but also, his infamous work "The Jews and Their Lies" was an exegesis of texts found in the NT, in particular:

"Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." (Matt 28:11-15)

Note: this is from the most Jewish of the Gospels.

Luther was stating that this was still the common argument against Christ in His day. He considered this to be a terrible lie against Him.

So, to many, this fervent defense of the Gospel and the words of Matthew is a sign of faith and salvation.

However, there is more to this, as you would guess. This paper of Luther's was rather weak and poor for his high standards, and Lutheran scholars to this day pretty much say it isn't worth the paper its printed on. He wrote it in uncertain conditions in the years when his life was pretty tough. Some historians have noted that it was written around the same time that the banks held the Saxon government in a position that was almost blackmail, when it was trying to form a Christian welfare system under the request of the Reformers. Guess who the banks were owned by? I think this is an interesting hypothesis.

For the record, I think TJaTL is awful and shows a lack of control. But I also think Luther was not much good after 1534, and I would not recommend anything of his after approximately that time without caution. He lost his edge and was under too much pressure.

 

[Desert Rose]

thanks for the info, CM. we humaniods are truly controversial creatures, and often capable of very out of character things, indeed

 

[Lulav]

Luther was a man of his time (see above post of mine) but also, his infamous work "The Jews and Their Lies" was an exegesis of texts found in the NT, in particular:

"Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." (Matt 28:11-15)

Note: this is from the most Jewish of the Gospels.

Luther was stating that this was still the common argument against Christ in His day. He considered this to be a terrible lie against Him.

So, to many, this fervent defense of the Gospel and the words of Matthew is a sign of faith and salvation.


For the record, I think TJaTL is awful and shows a lack of control. But I also think Luther was not much good after 1534, and I would not recommend anything of his after approximately that time without caution. He lost his edge and was under too much pressure.

The problem with this rebuttal is that this only shows that Luther like other Christians did not know how to put the blame where it should have been.

Just like the old standby: 'The Jews killed Christ' which has put a curse on our whole people instead of a faction, he also bought into this lie.

Jewish or not the book of Matthew has been copied to say what they wanted to believe, regarding Jews in general. Ask anyone 40 and up or who lived before the information age, when they discovered that Jesus was Jewish.

I have a bit of trouble in other areas of Matthew 28 but won't go into that here, but I think there is some consensus that this was not in the original.
Being that we do not have any extant manuscript (MS) which contains all of Matthew dating prior to the fourth century. Nor do we find any MS prior to this time that contains Matthew 28.

Also I highly doubt that any Roman soldier, let alone more than one could be bought off by the Sadducees to basically confess they fell down on the job, this would be a death sentence for them.

 

[Lulav]

thanks for the info, CM. we humaniods are truly controversial creatures, and often capable of very out of character things, indeed

Speak for yourself, I myself am quite human.

 

[Desert Rose]

Speak for yourself, I myself am quite human.

Only after the first coffee i am passable for one before that -not so much

 

[ContraMundum]

Jewish or not the book of Matthew has been copied to say what they wanted to believe, regarding Jews in general.

Let me get this right....you don't believe in Paul...and now you don't believe in Matthew either?

What's left?

Can you prove this, or is it just what the latest higher critical craze is saying these days? How can we tell which bits of Matthew are reliable and which aren't?

This is ok to the liberal theology field...but I have my doubts about secret hidden conspiracy theories and Bible texts. I just don't think we can base our faith on conspiracy theories and speak of crimes against the Word of God without the names, dates and motives of the antagonists.

Ask anyone 40 and up or who lived before the information age, when they discovered that Jesus was Jewish.

What would that prove? Ignorance of the Bible is common on many points. Most people probably don't even know Moses was Jewish, and in fact, most people think he never existed anyway- it's all a myth to them.

I have a bit of trouble in other areas of Matthew 28 but won't go into that here, but I think there is some consensus that this was not in the original.

First I've heard of this consensus. But, then again, many of these in such consensual groups are outside of the faith anyway.

Being that we do not have any extant manuscript (MS) which contains all of Matthew dating prior to the fourth century. Nor do we find any MS prior to this time that contains Matthew 28.

Nothing special about that. Common to many texts- even parts of the Tanach.

I can't agree with your assertion here, but even if I did, I would say that anyone who has a problem with the late completion and compilation of a Gospel text should throw their Torahs out the window- when speaking about the Torah we're talking about a work not finished and compiled until the Babylonian exile! That's about 700-800 years after Mt. Sinai and only God knows how long after Noah! Apply the same standard and I would say the Torah is going to be very very unreliable.

It's about faith in the end...and a lot of people play favorites.

Also I highly doubt that any Roman soldier, let alone more than one could be bought off by the Sadducees to basically confess they fell down on the job, this would be a death sentence for them.

I don't have a problem with it. The Talmud tells us that those times were among the worst times for morality in Israel, so I can see the religious authorities bribing others. (Also, it is not likely that the soldiers were in fact Roman. More likely local conscripts in the service of Rome, as was typical in most regions. Those conscripts were not known for obedience and loyalty, especially in the Holy Land.)

 

[visionary]

There is nothing Ideal in this world we live in.. May the Lord be our Hope, and it is to His Hem we cling.

 

[Lulav]

Only after the first coffee i am passable for one before that -not so much

Only one? I need at least two!

 

[Lulav]

Let me get this right....you don't believe in Paul...and now you don't believe in Matthew either?

What's left?

Where in G-ds word does it say I have to believe in any man but Messiah? Anyway, as far as Matthew, I only brought up one chapter which has been contested. We were speaking of this in another thread about Mary and the woman touching Yeshua. Matthew is the only one that shows the woman grabbed at his feet. It also sounds different than the rest, and even looks like an addition.

Can you prove this, or is it just what the latest higher critical craze is saying these days? How can we tell which bits of Matthew are reliable and which aren't?

As far as reliability, that has been studied. As I said there aren't any existent mss that contain 28 before the 4th century. So it can't be proved or disproved either. There are other things contested in that chapter as well, I am just stating what I found odd.

This is ok to the liberal theology field...but I have my doubts about secret hidden conspiracy theories and Bible texts. I just don't think we can base our faith on conspiracy theories and speak of crimes against the Word of God without the names, dates and motives of the antagonists.

Who said anything about 'secret hidden conspiracy theories'? I do believe in a force against G-d at work on this earth, that which does, among other things, carries out plans to keep the truth from us. Think what you will of this but if this weren't so we would all not be in a fallen state and everything would be hunky dorry!

What would that prove? Ignorance of the Bible is common on many points. Most people probably don't even know Moses was Jewish, and in fact, most people think he never existed anyway- it's all a myth to them.

I was not speaking of 'most people' but of Christians in general. I have seen it on this very forum, so it is not about ignorance but what is being taught in seminaries and regurgitated from the pulpit. No offense but this is what happens.

First I've heard of this consensus. But, then again, many of these in such consensual groups are outside of the faith anyway.

Outside of the faith? meaning what? Not believing what the church teaches or not believing period?

Who would you believe?

Nothing special about that. Common to many texts- even parts of the Tanach.

That may be true, but there are many important points of church doctrine contained in this one chapter. Wouldn't you agree?

I can't agree with your assertion here, but even if I did, I would say that anyone who has a problem with the late completion and compilation of a Gospel text should throw their Torahs out the window- when speaking about the Torah we're talking about a work not finished and compiled until the Babylonian exile! That's about 700-800 years after Mt. Sinai and only God knows how long after Noah! Apply the same standard and I would say the Torah is going to be very very unreliable.

I'll get into a discussion about the canon later, but suffice it for now that I will not throw out any of the bible. I don't think you can apply the same standard as you are speaking about two groups of people. One that was given these words directly from G-d and the other that took this for their own. We do have the DSS that can show us what was being used at the time of Yeshua.

It's about faith in the end...and a lot of people play favorites.

Yes this is true, but the only favorite should be something that has something more than faith to back it up.

I don't have a problem with it. The Talmud tells us that those times were among the worst times for morality in Israel, so I can see the religious authorities bribing others. (Also, it is not likely that the soldiers were in fact Roman. More likely local conscripts in the service of Rome, as was typical in most regions. Those conscripts were not known for obedience and loyalty, especially in the Holy Land.)

I was saying that they would have done this, but I don't think the soldiers would have been bought off. As far as obedience and loyalty, I think if you life is at stake it doesn't matter. The problem lies in this being about a few corrupt government officials and a whole nation being colored by their doings.