Demonstrable proof

[pinkputter]

No one can prove God. Either one has first hand experience or they don't. This experience comes as a grace from God and not from the self (ego) "lest any man should boast". No one can impart that over the internet (that I know of at least).

It's my understanding that all people will come to God realization. The process may take incredibly long periods of time. Many aions of painful study. It will not end after this body is left behind and long forgotten. Each seed will ripen when the God ordained time arrives.

God is the greatest thief of hearts. He will find yours someday. No need for me to convince you. God needs no defense. Good luck in your search

While I agree it's God who does the "winning" of souls, I believe God can be proven. Because we live in HIS world, with HIS laws (gravity, etc.) We should be able to find him in these, shouldn't we? It takes multiple arguments in combination for it to make sense and be complete "proof"
But if CS Lewis can be won by these principles, I believe other intelligent people can too. I have already mentioned some of these arguments to you.

What is imperative is that you study with your mind and search with your heart. You cannot find God with a closed heart because he has written his very law and love for you there.

Continue on with your search. It will lead you to Truth.

 

[Non sequitur]

While I agree it's God who does the "winning" of souls, I believe God can be proven. Because we live in HIS world, with HIS laws (gravity, etc.) We should be able to find him in these, shouldn't we? It takes multiple arguments in combination for it to make sense and be complete "proof"
But if CS Lewis can be won by these principles, I believe other intelligent people can too. I have already mentioned some of these arguments to you.

Awesome.

You can't use circular logic to prove things, which I personally find both preposterous and ridiculous.

Arguments are simply cases for or against something, they prove zilch.

What is imperative is that you study with your mind and search with your heart. You cannot find God with a closed heart because he has written his very law and love for you there.

Continue on with your search. It will lead you to Truth.

And if I search and don't find him... I wasn't really trying hard enough or didn't really believe.

Begging the question.


I don't deal with logical fallacies.

 

[Non sequitur]

No one can prove God. Either one has first hand experience or they don't. This experience comes as a grace from God and not from the self (ego) "lest any man should boast". No one can impart that over the internet (that I know of at least).

It's my understanding that all people will come to God realization. The process may take incredibly long periods of time. Many aions of painful study. It will not end after this body is left behind and long forgotten. Each seed will ripen when the God ordained time arrives.

God is the greatest thief of hearts. He will find yours someday. No need for me to convince you. God needs no defense. Good luck in your search

I'll assume you wish me luck in my search for truths, whatever these truths I find may be. Thanks.

Then can I ask you: how do you determine reality from non-reality?

 

[Abraham Garrett]

Non sequitur,

You will find that you cannot be reasoned out of a position that you did not reason yourself into. You didn't reason yourself into a lack of faith, so we will not be able to reason you out of your lack of faith, no matter how hard we try. And believe me, we do want to, with all our hearts.

Take a step back and look at your lack of faith, without any preconceptions. Look around you at the world. Draw your own conclusions, not from your humanist point of view, but start at the very beginning. I recommend that the first step of your journey be the creation, the most glorious of all events in our history. You may wish to reason like this: in the beginning, something was created. Realise that you can't get something from nothing, so something must have existed prior to the creation. What could possibly have existed before anything else?

You will soon discover for yourself that there is only one possible explanation for everything that you see around you. It may seem unrealistic at first, it may even seem unlikely. But as it was once said, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (my emphasis)

I pray for you to open your mind and your heart, to see that which you deny yourself.

All the best.

 

[Non sequitur]

Non sequitur,

You will find that you cannot be reasoned out of a position that you did not reason yourself into. You didn't reason yourself into a lack of faith, so we will not be able to reason you out of your lack of faith, no matter how hard we try. And believe me, we do want to, with all our hearts.

Uh, yes I did. That's how I arrived at my position.

Take a step back and look at your lack of faith, without any preconceptions. Look around you at the world. Draw your own conclusions, not from your humanist point of view, but start at the very beginning.

Not sure why I'd want to draw conclusions based on my immediate reality and my knowledge and understanding of it...

I recommend that the first step of your journey be the creation, the most glorious of all events in our history. You may wish to reason like this: in the beginning, something was created. Realise that you can't get something from nothing, so something must have existed prior to the creation. What could possibly have existed before anything else?

I'll put on my reason cap. (That's actually a joke, 'cuz it's always on )

"In the beginning, something was created."

If you are talking about the universe, I'm gonna go with the Big Bang.

But I think you are going deeper than that. Let me read further...

Well, my reason cap is is saying:

"Since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it was always here; it doesn't need to first be created in order for it to exist."

"What could possibly have existed before anything else?" is an invalid question, as it limits all possible answers.

"What could possibly have existed before anything else?" By definition, nothing existed before anything existed. Not sure what that proved...

You will soon discover for yourself that there is only one possible explanation for everything that you see around you. It may seem unrealistic at first, it may even seem unlikely.

My reason cap is going quite bonkers here...

There would be any number of possible explanations for everything around me. Some unrealistic, some not.

But that is why they are possible explanations, not the explanation. (my emphasis on your illogical jump from "maybe" to "definitely")

But as it was once said, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (my emphasis)

Ah, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Yes, that was probably Sherlock Holmes's most known quote.

Besides him using that to deduce only the physical and the real world, when used by you it has many issues.

"Whatever remains..." Well... there is a lot that remains.

There are things that we may not even be aware of that exist, but currently seem impossible solutions to us. So, we can't fairly go about eliminating things that we aren't even aware of.

We can't really discount any other religions or their supernatural claims as the truth because, by definition, they can't be proven or dis-proven.

Also, don't you think it's rather biased and presumptuous of you to arrive that Christianity was the last standing possibility?

I mean, unless you were not following the whole reason thing, cherry-picking and predisposed.


I always forget how logic is praised and used when it helps justify our beliefs, but shamed and dismissed when it doesn't.

You could almost say doing that... is illogical
[/QUOTE]

I pray for you to open your mind and your heart, to see that which you deny yourself.

All the best.

Ironically, I will wish you the same.

(By the way, I always use Bush's "All The Best" to end letters and emails, too!)

 

[Cuddles333]

This is the 'Demonstratable' 'Emperical' proof that Christianity is not a religious hoax:

Shroud of Turin debate rekindled - TODAY People - TODAY.com

It seems the longer this relic is around the stronger the evidence gets that it is authentic. Every objection to it has been getting disproved. Of course, we Christians do not need it to maintain our faith. The interest in it is how skeptics keep coming up with all kinds of far out theories of how it cannot be the real burial cloth of Christ. It just proves what Jesus said to the rich man in Luke chapter 16 about sending someone from the dead back to warn the rich man's brothers; "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be pursuaded, though one rise from the dead."

 

[Non sequitur]

This is the 'Demonstratable' 'Emperical' proof that Christianity is not a religious hoax:

Shroud of Turin debate rekindled - TODAY People - TODAY.com

First, I think it's interesting to point out how science has the ability to self-correct itself and its ok with that. It appears to be seeking validity in claims made.

Secondly, I find it interesting that when science does not support Christians, you bash it. But when it does, you revel in it.

That sounds like cherry-picking, to support your claim.

It seems the longer this relic is around the stronger the evidence gets that it is authentic. Every objection to it has been getting disproved. Of course, we Christians do not need it to maintain our faith. The interest in it is how skeptics keep coming up with all kinds of far out theories of how it cannot be the real burial cloth of Christ. It just proves what Jesus said to the rich man in Luke chapter 16 about sending someone from the dead back to warn the rich man's brothers; "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be pursuaded, though one rise from the dead."

They allowed scientist to cut Jesus's burial cloth? Not sure if that was sacrilegious, but got to give them points for that.


Summary of the article:

- It appears the shroud has been handled many times; it has been hung from a balcony for public display.

- It’s been burned in fires.

- They surmise that it seems the opportunity for contamination to settle on the cloth is high.

- No new tests will be done on the shroud, but they will visit the data of the original and contaminated specimens.

- It is remarkably well-preserved for an article so old.

- The image in the cloth was reproduced in 2005 by laying a wet strip of linen on a bas-relief and daubing at it with a red, ferric oxide pigment mixed with gelatin.

- One scientist who examined evidence collected during the 1978 examination reported that he found grains of pollen on the shroud that could only have come from the Middle East.

- The Catholic Church continues to hold that the shroud is not authentic, but the faithful are allowed to venerate it as a symbol of Christ’s death and resurrection.


Given all of the above, you concluded this to be strong evidence that proves it authenticity and found every objection to it as being getting disproved?

Really?

 

[visionary]

I'm curious what kind of demonstrable and/or empirical proof Christians have for their beliefs?

Ony God can demonstrate His reality to you... But you will have to ask Him to be real in your life.. are you willing to lay down everything .. to prepare to meet your maker?

 

[Non sequitur]

Ony God can demonstrate His reality to you... But you will have to ask Him to be real in your life.. are you willing to lay down everything .. to prepare to meet your maker?

Thank you for answering.

I have asked him to be real in my life, but have not experienced anything.

Now, if you want to infer that everything around me is already his demonstration, then I really didn't need to ask.

That would be drawing a conclusion, not a demonstration.


If I may ask a follow up: how do you determine reality from non-reality?

 

[visionary]

Thank you for answering.

I have asked him to be real in my life, but have not experienced anything.

Now, if you want to infer that everything around me is already his demonstration, then I really didn't need to ask.

That would be drawing a conclusion, not a demonstration.


If I may ask a follow up: how do you determine reality from non-reality?

God as a gentleman, and for your own safety, has not answered your request, because you are not prepared to meet Him. He is the Holy One of Israel, the God that Moses met on Mount Sinai, the transfigured Yeshua in the flesh.. and He is Holy.. which in contrast to our poor earthly states on unrighteousness, sinful, and deluded minds, .. would put us in the "blown away" catagory in His Presence... therefore He has laid out some things that might help you to be able to stand being in His Presence.

Ask yourself, "Do I really want to meet HIm?" if the answer is yes.. then He said for you to seek His Kingdom and His righteousness... you are to repent of any known sins, secret sins, favorite sins, and any other sins that come to mind, and like Moses climbing the Holy Mount. It would be wise to take a long weekend off for just such a purpose [cleansing everything/world/life that could possible be separating you from seeing or hearing Him] .. Doing some serious prayers for Him to reveal to you what is keeping you away from Him. Get real with HIm.., and He will get real with you. Praying for you to have the courage to go boldly to His throne of grace.

 

[Non sequitur]

God as a gentleman, and for your own safety, has not answered your request, because you are not prepared to meet Him. He is the Holy One of Israel, the God that Moses met on Mount Sinai, the transfigured Yeshua in the flesh.. and He is Holy.. which in contrast to our poor earthly states on unrighteousness, sinful, and deluded minds, .. would put us in the "blown away" catagory in His Presence... therefore He has laid out some things that might help you to be able to stand being in His Presence.

He said for you to seek His Kingdom and His righteousness... you are to repent of any known sins, secret sins, favorite sins, and any other sins that come to mind, and like Moses climbing the Holy Mount, it would be wise to take a long weekend off for just such a purpose [cleansing everything/world/life that could possible be separating you from seeing or hearing Him] .. Doing some serious prayers for Him to reveal to you what is keeping you away from Him. Get real with HIm.., and He will get real with you. Praying for you to have the courage to go boldly to His throne of grace.

That would be like me saying, "You don't know Waheguru, because you are not prepared to meet him."

And then referencing a lot of information about him, as fact.

Stating you don't know something, because you aren't ready to know something, doesn't prove its existence.

Circular logic doesn't prove itself, because it is circular.


I was asking: how do you determine reality from non-reality?

It is not an invalid question.


(Btw, only one person in this whole thread answered that. Do I really need to start a new thread, just so that question will be answered?)

 

[visionary]

That would be like me saying, "You don't know Waheguru, because you are not prepared to meet him."

And then referencing a lot of information about him, as fact.

Stating you don't know something, because you aren't ready to know something, doesn't prove its existence.

Circular logic doesn't prove itself, because it is circular.


I was asking: how do you determine reality from non-reality?

It is not an invalid question.


(Btw, only one person in this whole thread answered that. Do I really need to start a new thread, just so that question will be answered?)

So would the valid question, do you believe in ghosts? But until you run across one, it is still debateable... to end the debate in your mind, I say talk to God, challenge Him, Seek Him, Search for Him, and most of all get Him to prove Himself to you, after all, He is the evidence you seek.

 

[Non sequitur]

So would the valid question, do you believe in ghosts? But until you run across one, it is still debateable... to end the debate in your mind, I say talk to God, challenge Him, Seek Him, Search for Him, and most of all get Him to prove Himself to you, after all, He is the evidence you seek.

I don't believe in ghosts and concur that their existence is still debatable.

So agreeing that ghosts are debatable, we can't lead our search for ghosts by already assuming they do exist and talking to/at them.

 

[visionary]

I don't believe in ghosts and concur that their existence is still debatable.

So agreeing that ghosts are debatable, we can't lead our search for ghosts by already assuming they do exist and talking to/at them.

Can't prove their non existence by not searching out the evidences either.

 

[Non sequitur]

Can't prove their non existence by not searching out the evidences either.

Equally true.


If you never tried to find me, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or didn't exist.

If I never called you, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or did not exist.

If I sent you letters and messages, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or did not exist.

If all you had were pictures of me and others stories, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or did not exist.


Only until I showed up at your door in person, could you say that you truly know I exist.

 

[visionary]

Equally true.


If you never tried to find me, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or didn't exist.

If I never called you, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or did not exist.

If I sent you letters and messages, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or did not exist.

If all you had were pictures of me and others stories, you could never truly say you knew that I existed or did not exist.


Only until I showed up at your door in person, could you say that you truly know I exist.

Now there is the leap of faith.... it is that stepping out.. and walking, talking, and giving God a chance, that you will meet Him.. He does answer prayers ..Talking about knocking at the door .. Rev 3:20.. put that verse as a challenge for God to fulfill. He did for me..

 

[Non sequitur]

Now there is the leap of faith.... it is that stepping out.. and walking, talking, and giving God a chance, that you will meet Him.. He does answer prayers ..Talking about knocking at the door .. Rev 3:20.. put that verse as a challenge for God to fulfill. He did for me..

Now we have to look at motive.

If all the interactions with me were bad ones, despite my reasoning ("I only smack and hurt you, because I love you so much." Who has ever thought that was ok and justified?) you wouldn't really care to know if I truly exist. Unless you wanted to file police reports.

For the sake of argument, well assume that didn't happen.

So, if all the interactions, prior to me being at your door, were good ones... could you reasonably say that your wants and wishes for it to be true, they were quite wonderful, would naturally have some effect on your ability to determine it actually being true?

 

[visionary]

Now we have to look at motive.

If all the interactions with me were bad ones, despite my reasoning ("I only smack and hurt you, because I love you so much." Who has ever thought that was ok and justified?) you wouldn't really care to know if I truly exist. Unless you wanted to file police reports.

For the sake of argument, well assume that didn't happen.

So, if all the interactions, prior to me being at your door, were good ones... could you reasonably say that your wants and wishes for it to be true, they were quite wonderful, would naturally have some effect on your ability to determine it actually being true?

If I called you on the phone what appeal can I make that would invite you to come over?

 

[Non sequitur]

If I called you on the phone what appeal can I make that would invite you to come over?

While you didn't answer mine, I'll answer yours.

Well, if we have established that our previous interactions were good, you wouldn't have to make an appeal.

You could just ask, assuming that I was in a position that I could (not at my kids soccer game), and I would.

Then we would immediately meet in person and go from there.

 

[visionary]

While you didn't answer mine, I'll answer yours.

Well, if we have established that our previous interactions were good, you wouldn't have to make an appeal.

You could just ask, assuming that I was in a position that I could (not at my kids soccer game), and I would.

Then we would immediately meet in person and go from there.

OK.. make that same appeal to God, and see if He doesn't want to be your friends and want you to get to know Him better.. I would start with His love letter to you.