Is anyone interested in ecumenism?

[JoabAnias]

As taught by the Church and what exactly that entails from us?

This is a really broad and revolving topic that is quite facinating, well, to me at least.

Anyone else interested in ecumenism?

Here are some lresources on the subject:

USCCB - Secretariat for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs Home Page
USCCB - (SEIA) Ecumenism (Relations with other Christians)
USCCB - Catholic Church in the USA - Ecumenical Relations Backgrounder
index ecumenical and interreligious affairs

Monastic Interreligious Dialogue | Universalism and Ecumenism

Catholic Church and ecumenism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Catholic Church sees itself as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church, founded by Christ himself. Its teachings state the proper Church of Christ is identical with the Catholic Church, thus excluding all other Christian religious groups and churches.

Ecumenism takes as it starting point that Christ founded just one Church, not many churches; hence the Roman Catholic Church has as its ultimate hope and objective - that through prayer, study, and dialogue, the historically separated bodies may come again to be reunited with it.

 

[ebia]

Sounds like a good topic to me.

Just to add something to the resources:

The Bible and ecumenism
Conscious that the Church has her foundation in Christ, the incarnate Word of God, the Synod wished to emphasize the centrality of biblical studies within ecumenical dialogue aimed at the full expression of the unity of all believers in Christ.[151] The Scriptures themselves contain Jesus’ moving prayer to the Father that his disciples might be one, so that the world may believe (cf.
Jn 17:21). All this can only strengthen our conviction that by listening and meditating together on the Scriptures, we experience a real, albeit not yet full communion;[152] “shared listening to the Scriptures thus spurs us on towards the dialogue of charity and enables growth in the dialogue of truth”.[153] Listening together to the word of God, engaging in biblical lectio divina, letting ourselves be struck by the inexhaustible freshness of God’s word which never grows old, overcoming our deafness to those words that do not fit our own opinions or prejudices, listening and studying within the communion of the believers of every age: all these things represent a way of coming to unity in faith as a response to hearing the word of God.[154] The words of the Second Vatican Council were clear in this regard: “in [ecumenical] dialogue itself, sacred Scripture is a precious instrument in the mighty hand of God for attaining to that unity which the Saviour holds out to all”.[155] Consequently, there should be an increase in ecumenical study, discussion and celebrations of the word of God, with due respect for existing norms and the variety of traditions.[156] These celebrations advance the cause of ecumenism and, when suitably carried out, they represent intense moments of authentic prayer asking God to hasten the day when we will all be able at last to sit at the one table and drink from the one cup. Nonetheless, while it is praiseworthy and right to promote such services, care must be taken that they are not proposed to the faithful as alternatives to the celebration of Holy Mass on Sundays or holydays of obligation.
In this work of study and prayer, we serenely acknowledge those aspects which still need to be explored more deeply and those on which we still differ, such as the understanding of the authoritative subject of interpretation in the Church and the decisive role of the magisterium.[157]
Finally, I wish to emphasize the statements of the Synod Fathers about the ecumenical importance of translations of the Bible in the various languages. We know that translating a text is no mere mechanical task, but belongs in some sense to the work of interpretation. In this regard, the Venerable John Paul II observed that “anyone who recalls how heavily debates about Scripture influenced divisions, especially in the West, can appreciate the significant step forward which these common translations represent”.[158] Promoting common translations of the Bible is part of the ecumenical enterprise. I would like to thank all those engaged in this important work, and I encourage them to persevere in their efforts.

 

[ebia]

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[JoabAnias]

Sounds like a good topic to me.

Just to add something to the resources:

You got a double post there bud. <eta> see you noticed.

Check the wiki link. It links all the Church docs and makes a decent contrast of pre/post Vatican II ecumenical teachings.

My main interest is with true ecumenism and what some claim is misguided or false ecumenism and where that line falls.

I am confident about where that line is but the interpretation can be rather subjective. I've encountered hostility just for raising the subject before.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Interesting you would mention this after 3-4 days of - disappointment - as best i can describe my feelings atm.

Reunification is a tough battle indeed. (

1 2)

Some just dont want it, or they believe their Church doesnt want it.

 

[ebia]

You got a double post there bud. <eta> see you noticed.

Check the wiki link. It links all the Church docs and makes a decent contrast of pre/post Vatican II ecumenical teachings.

My main interest is with true ecumenism and what some claim is misguided or false ecumenism and where that line falls.

I am confident about where that line is but the interpretation can be rather subjective. I've encountered hostility just for raising the subject before.

Mmmm.. I think I know what you are talking about. I will look through your resources.

 

[JoabAnias]

Interesting you would mention this after 3-4 days of - disappointment - as best i can describe my feelings atm.

Some just dont want it, or they believe their Church doesnt want it.

Thats ever so true and takes some coming to terms with.

As I see it, if there is no ear to hear then you keep your peace. The Lord calls us to peace and we cannot lead anyone to salvation by forcing the truth on them.

We have to respect another's free will and sometimes their choice exceeds all our ability to explain or understand God.

Our enemy isn't the flesh but the spirits (Ephesians 6:12) and I find a few rules helpful in the pursuit of ecumenism, or dealing with anyone for that matter. They are directly from scripture:

This is how to judge if there is any use trying to discuss the faith:
Matthew 11:15
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is how to temper all dialogue from there:
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

This is how to know when to stop:
Galatians 5:15
But if you bite and devour one another; take heed you be not consumed one of another.

There are many many more I could cite but you get the gist.

What I see most often, and have done myself, is folks subjecting themselves to heresy in a false hope of changing hearts and minds. I don't know of very many cases where heresy has ever been overcome by the tongue alone if the person stuck doesn't care to listen. They will always find a way to circumvent whatever they want to. Hearts and dispositions have to change first. Know what I mean? Otherwise its just frustration and fruitless.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thats ever so true and takes some coming to terms with.

As I see it, if there is no ear to hear then you keep your peace. The Lord calls us to peace and we cannot lead anyone to salvation by forcing the truth on them.

We have to respect another's free will and sometimes their choice exceeds all our ability to explain or understand God.

Our enemy isn't the flesh but the spirits (Ephesians 6:12) and I find a few rules helpful in the pursuit of ecumenism, or dealing with anyone for that matter. They are directly from scripture:

This is how to judge if there is any use trying to discuss the faith:
Matthew 11:15
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is how to temper all dialogue from there:
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

This is how to know when to stop:
Galatians 5:15
But if you bite and devour one another; take heed you be not consumed one of another.

There are many many more I could cite but you get the gist.

What I see most often, and have done myself, is folks subjecting themselves to heresy in a false hope of changing hearts and minds. I don't know of very many cases where heresy has ever been overcome by the tongue alone if the person stuck doesn't care to listen. They will always find a way to circumvent whatever they want to. Hearts and dispositions have to change first. Know what I mean? Otherwise its just frustration and fruitless.

True, but someone has to make a voice first before we know if someone else knows what is or is not truth and what is hearsay and what not.

And i always believe prayer is the answer...hence what i said many times.

But perhaps the 1st step has to be met - then prayer. One cannot assume all hard hearts come from experience, but rather inexperience if one has no knowledge of whats up.

 

[JoabAnias]

True, but someone has to make a voice first before we know if someone else knows what is or is not truth and what is hearsay and what not.

And i always believe prayer is the answer...hence what i said many times.

But perhaps the 1st step has to be met - then prayer. One cannot assume all hard hearts come from experience, but rather inexperience if one has no knowledge of whats up.

You definitely seem open to teach. Are others as open to learn?

 

[Basil the Great]

As taught by the Church and what exactly that entails from us?

This is a really broad and revolving topic that is quite facinating, well, to me at least.

Anyone else interested in ecumenism?

Here are some lresources on the subject:

USCCB - Secretariat for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs Home Page
USCCB - (SEIA) Ecumenism (Relations with other Christians)
USCCB - Catholic Church in the USA - Ecumenical Relations Backgrounder
index ecumenical and interreligious affairs

Monastic Interreligious Dialogue | Universalism and Ecumenism

Catholic Church and ecumenism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Catholic Church sees itself as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church, founded by Christ himself. Its teachings state the proper Church of Christ is identical with the Catholic Church, thus excluding all other Christian religious groups and churches.

Ecumenism takes as it starting point that Christ founded just one Church, not many churches; hence the Roman Catholic Church has as its ultimate hope and objective - that through prayer, study, and dialogue, the historically separated bodies may come again to be reunited with it.

As I recall, the RCC no longer says that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church, at least not in such clear and specific language. Rather, it now teaches that "the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church". Don't ask me to explain the difference, but it probably has a lot to do with the Vatican II Church teaching that the Holy Spirit can work through non-Catholic Christians and that they have a chance at salvation via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". It seems that the Catholic Church still teaches that it is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind. However, for whatever reason, the RCC no longer wishes to explicitly teach that the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ are one in the same entity.

 

[JoabAnias]

As I recall, the RCC no longer says that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church, at least not in such clear and specific language. Rather, it now teaches that "the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church". Don't ask me to explain the difference, but it probably has a lot to do with the Vatican II Church teaching that the Holy Spirit can work through non-Catholic Christians and that they have a chance at salvation via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". It seems that the Catholic Church still teaches that it is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind. However, for whatever reason, the RCC no longer wishes to explicitly teach that the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ are one in the same entity.

The Catholic Church sees itself as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church, founded by Christ himself. Its teachings state the proper Church of Christ is identical with the visible Catholic Church.


Read this section:

The way of ecumenism: the way of the Church

Ut unum sint - Ioannes Paulus PP. II - Encyclical Letter (1995.05.25)

10. In the present situation of the lack of unity among Christians and of the confident quest for full communion, the Catholic faithful are conscious of being deeply challenged by the Lord of the Church. The Second Vatican Council strengthened their commitment with a clear ecclesiological vision, open to all the ecclesial values present among other Christians. The Catholic faithful face the ecumenical question in a spirit of faith.

The Council states that the Church of Christ "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him", and at the same time acknowledges that "many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity".

"It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church"

 

[ebia]

Heavenly Father,
you have called us in the Body of your Son Jesus Christ
to continue his work of reconciliation
and reveal you to the world:
forgive us the sins which tear us apart;
give us the courage to overcome our fears
and to seek that unity which is your gift and your will;
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[tadoflamb]

As taught by the Church and what exactly that entails from us?

This is a really broad and revolving topic that is quite facinating, well, to me at least.

Anyone else interested in ecumenism?

This is why I have a pope.

Let him deal with them.

 

[JoabAnias]

This is why I have a pope.

Let him deal with them.

Each member of the body has a purpose. The members of the mystical body, like those of the natural body, must mutually cherish one another.

Apostolicam Actuositatem is the Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity.

It was approved by a vote of 2,340 to 2 of bishops assembled at the Council, and promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 18, 1965.

The title is Latin for "Apostolic Activity," which is from the first line of the decree, as is customary with significant Catholic documents.

The decree defines the mission of the lay Christian faithful to both "lead non-believers to the faith and to instruct, strengthen, and encourage the faithful to a more fervent life".

"God's plan for the world is that men should work together to renew and constantly perfect the temporal order."
Decree on the Apostolate of Laity - Apostolicam Actuositatem

The Pope would call us to ecumenism.

 

[ebia]

This is why I have a pope.

Let him deal with them.

You make it sound like naughty students sent to the Principal.

 

[tadoflamb]

You make it sound like naughty students sent to the Principal.

And this is exactly why His Holiness doesn't need me in the field of ecumenism.

I'm terrible at it.

 

[JoabAnias]

And this is exactly why His Holiness doesn't need me in the field of ecumenism.

I'm terrible at it.

Trial and error.

 

[JoabAnias]

We could build an apologetic case for ecumenism with scripture:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

John 17:22
And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:

and of course that its ideal to be one in the visible Church:

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Fantine]

Every Lent our community has an ecumenical luncheon series. One church provides the preaching while another church provides the site, music, and lunch. Five churches participate--Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopal, and Methodist.

These same churches work together on other community projects--the low-cost medical clinic, homeless shelter, and food pantries.

At one such luncheon this year, the Presbyterian Church placed the "ecumenical creed" in its program. Sound familiar?

The Nicene Creed

​

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
​

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
​

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
​

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
​

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
​

I just found that on a Presbyterian website.

Come Worship with Us! | John Knox Presbyterian Church

I am sure the planning committee would not have placed it in an ecumenical service if all four faiths represented could not agree on its content.

I have attended Lutheran and Methodist liturgies and heard that selfsame prayer recited after the sermon.

There are far more commonalities than differences.

 

[QuantaCura]

As I recall, the RCC no longer says that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church, at least not in such clear and specific language. Rather, it now teaches that "the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church". Don't ask me to explain the difference, but it probably has a lot to do with the Vatican II Church teaching that the Holy Spirit can work through non-Catholic Christians and that they have a chance at salvation via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". It seems that the Catholic Church still teaches that it is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind. However, for whatever reason, the RCC no longer wishes to explicitly teach that the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ are one in the same entity.

This is a common misunderstanding. The phrase "subsistit in" does not diminish the identity of the Catholic Church with the Church of Christ, but reinforces it. Wheras the term "est" (is) means a present reality, "subsistit in" means a perduring reality--ie a permanent and enduring reality, despite the fact that ecclesial elements are found outside the Church (e.g. true sacraments, etc.). Furthermore, the Church of Christ can ONLY be said to subsist in the Catholic Church. It is wrong to say it subsists in other groups or that there are multiple subsistencies.

The recent CDF document on the Church explained this:

In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.​

And further:​

Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.[10]​

This same truth was clarified earlier in the CDF document, Dominus Iesus:​

The interpretation of those who would derive from the formula subsistit in the thesis that the one Church of Christ could subsist also in non-Catholic Churches and ecclesial communities is therefore contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen gentium. “The Council instead chose the word subsistit precisely to clarify that there exists only one ‘subsistence' of the true Church, while outside her visible structure there only exist elementa Ecclesiae, which — being elements of that same Church — tend and lead toward the Catholic Church”​

As an aside, this idea that these elements tend towards Catholic unity is not an innovation of Vatican II either. For example, in paragraphs 24 and 25 of this encyclical, Pius XI explains how the devotion towards the Eucharist and the Mother of God of the schismatic Easterners has kept them from becoming as far separated as other groups and that it will serve as a means of unity.​

For further reading on the phrase "subsistit in" check out these two articles by priests who are members of the CDF and most recently were part of the doctrinal discussions with the SSPX:​

An Examination of Subsistit in
Christ's Church Subsists in the Catholic Church​