Contraception

[MamaZ]

Contraception and birth control are not the same thing.

Did I miss state or something.. If so sorry. If one is preventing contraception then they are practicing a form of birth control.

 

[MamaZ]

The Church does not condemn birth control, only certain forms of it.

In my opinion, Josiah defines 'contraception' as he sees fit so as to include NFP in that definition because whatever the Catholic church teaches MUST be wrong. This is just my opinion, not necessarily objectively a fact.

Which forms of BC do they condemn?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Contraception and birth control are not the same thing.

Although if one is taking steps, applying methods, employing techniques taught in classes - the MEANS and the END in such being contraceptive, then it's contraceptive. It's contraception.





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[CaliforniaJosiah]

I don't believe that having sex during the infertile period is contracepted sex, even if one intends to avoid conception

Scratching head, lol....

Do you think that HAVING sex is having sex?
Do you think that something with the goal, intent, purpose, design and end is contraceptive is contraceptive?
Do you think that if one is DOING, practicing, employing, implementing what the RCC taught them so as to control births (contraception) is DOING so so as to have sex ("more than before" according to you) but contraceptively is thus having sex contraceptively?

I agree with Jesus

Quote Jesus where he states that employing a MEANS with the END being "to render procreation impossible" is both evil and pious?"




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

What other side has been presented?

RCC: Contraceptive sex is "evil."
RCC: Contraceptive sex is "pious." I'm the biggest religious promoter of it in the world, I teach classes in how to do it - and may mandate that couples that this class.

Both sides come from the same source.
READ the Catholic posts in this thread. You can skip all the Protestant ones, just thread the Catholic ones. "Both sides" are found there. The Protestants have just been parroting them.





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[patricius79]

In my opinion, Josiah defines 'contraception' as he sees fit so as to include NFP in that definition because whatever the Catholic church teaches MUST be wrong. .

the larger issue is whether contraception is wrong, as the ECFs taught and the Church has always taught, with the reformers and the Protestant denominations until 1930

it's difficult to believe that all of these are wrong, and Mother Teresa also

Gal 5

17 For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 14 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,

 

[sunlover1]

the larger issue is whether contraception is wrong, as the ECFs taught and the Church has always taught, with the reformers and the Protestant denominations until 1930

it's difficult to believe that all of these are wrong, and Mother Teresa also

Why is it so difficult to believe that the Christians can be wrong?
Mother Theresa btw, was filled with love but that doesn't make her
more "right" than you or I.

IMO

 

[cubinity]

If I don't want to get my wife pregnant, and so I don't have any sex with her, is that contraceptive abstinence?

Is that condemned by any church? Does that somehow conflict with Scripture?

 

[Rhamiel]

If I don't want to get my wife pregnant, and so I don't have any sex with her, is that contraceptive abstinence?

Is that condemned by any church? Does that somehow conflict with Scripture?

God told Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply"
so to be married and to NEVER want kids, well that would kind of be bad
but to just not have sex for a while because you can not handel a child at that moment
well i do not think that is agianst the bible

 

[patricius79]

Why is it so difficult to believe that the Christians can be wrong?
Mother Theresa btw, was filled with love but that doesn't make her
more "right" than you or I.

IMO

I agree that Christians can be wrong. I think it is much more likely that the Protestants here and in recent decades are wrong about this

rather than the reformers, the Christian Church, all Protestant denominations until 1930, Mother Teresa, etc

 

[ivebeenshown]

Although if one is taking steps, applying methods, employing techniques taught in classes - the MEANS and the END in such being contraceptive, then it's contraceptive. It's contraception.

Only according to your definition of contraception. As the Church uses the word 'contraception', it refers to those means of birth control which purposefully disrupt the natural process of intercourse or artificially diminish potency/fertility.

You're just being difficult and argumentative, in my opinion. The Catechism speaks of periodic continence as something contrary to contraception and you just appear to want to nitpick about it using your own definition of 'contraception.'

RCC: Contraceptive sex is "evil."
RCC: Contraceptive sex is "pious." I'm the biggest religious promoter of it in the world, I teach classes in how to do it - and may mandate that couples that this class.

This is a mis-representation. The Catholic teaching is 'periodic continence is contrary to contraception'. To quote the Catechism again, "The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality."

But go ahead, inject your definition of 'contraception' to make this sentence say 'the difference between contraception and contraception' and scream "CONTRADICTION! HYPOCRISY!" all you want.

 

[patricius79]

Only according to your definition of contraception. As the Church uses the word 'contraception', it refers to those means of birth control which purposefully disrupt the natural process of intercourse or artificially diminish potency/fertility.
\.

one of the questions I have is "what act is contraceptive sex in NFP?"

clearly having sex during the infertile period is not contraceptive, since one has not done anything to disrupt the act. clearly planning itself isn't contraceptive. and clearly abstaining from sex during the fertile period is not contracepted sex


it just seems like common sense, as well as a matter of faith, that these acts are very different from using a condom to avoid pregnancy, e.g.

and the sociological evidence reflects this. a 1% divorce rate for NFP couples, e.g.

 

[sunlover1]

one of the questions I have is "what act is contraceptive sex in NFP?"

clearly having sex during the infertile period is not contraceptive, since one has not done anything to disrupt the act. clearly planning itself isn't contraceptive. and clearly abstaining from sex during the fertile period is not contracepted sex

So you are saying that having sex only during infertile times is being open to conception?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

So you are saying that having sex only during infertile times is being open to conception?

Does the RCC think that conception is ADVANCED and made MORE likely if people employ, perform, apply, do, practice the birth control method it teaches on how to have more sex than ever but to have it in ways that embrace infertile times? It thinks that ADVANCES the changes of conception?




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[JacktheCatholic]

So you are saying that having sex only during infertile times is being open to conception?

yes

 

[MamaZ]

yes

How?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In my opinion, Josiah ... because whatever the Catholic church teaches MUST be wrong.

1. In my opinion, you obviously have not read anything I've posted. I've not only NEVER said I regard ANY method of contraceptive sex to be wrong, but I've repeatedly stated that I do NOT regard the RCC's method to be wrong.


2. In my opinion, shifting the discussion from the topic to condemnation of posters is simply an attempt to evade points made.


3. In my opinion, reading what the RCC itself states in the Catechism of itself (CCC 87), the RCC itself insists that all are to embrace whatever the RCC itself says "with docility" because it MUST be right. Your condemnation of presumption (irrespective of evidence) lies with Catholics. Read your Catechism # 87. We have.




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

one of the questions I have is "what act is contraceptive sex in NFP?"

As you noted, there is no abstinence or chastity or virginity or piety in the new Catholic method of Family Planning and Birth Control. As you stressed (thrice) is in this Catholic method, a couple may have MORE sex than otherwise. It's HAVING sex.

But it's HAVING sex employing, using, doing, practicing, implementing a METHOD (a means) that will accomplish the goal, purpose, design, objective (END) of being contraceptive. That makes it, by both means and end, contraceptive.

According to the Catholics here, what the RCC condemns specifically, particularly as "evil" is WHATEVER is done - BEFORE, during or after - that has the goal, purpose, end, intent, design of being contraceptive, of "rendering conception unlikely." HAVING sex CONTRACEPTIVELY.

having sex during the infertile period is not contraceptive

Well, unless the RCC sincerely thinks that directing this "more sex than otherwise" to INFERTILE times will increase or have NO impact whatsoever on the chances of conception, then your statement is absurd. THE WHOLE REASON (end) is to have sex contraceptively - and the RCC will teach you how to do this (means).






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[patricius79]

So you are saying that having sex only during infertile times is being open to conception?

I'm saying that none of the acts of NFP are contracepted sex

are you saying that having sex during the infertile period is contracepted sex?

I'm saying that having sex during the infertile period is not contracepted sex. nor is avoiding sex during the fertile period.

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] into a condom, however, is contracepted sex

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I'm saying that none of the acts of NFP are contracepted sex

I think you need to make up your mind....

You have insisted that the Catholic method of Family Planning and Birth Control means HAVING sex, "more than otherwise" you've repeatedly stressed. You have repeatedly stated it's not about abstinence or chastity or virginity or refraining from sex, it's about HAVING sex, "more than otherwise!"

If the Catholic method involves nothing - before, during or after - then how can it be said that some Catholics "practice it?" What could the RCC teach people to do in all those classes if nothing is done?

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] into a condom, however, is contracepted sex

Well, it's having sex with the means and end of not conceiving. Just like redirecting sex to infertile times (employing, doing a method taught and promoted by the RCC) is having sex with the means and end of not conceiving.






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