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Wendy Wright and Richard Dawkins

Jade Margery

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I watched about a third of it.

That's about how much I got through too. Couldn't take any more.


Aside @ Thobe: I agree with you completely. It's pretty hypocritical to preach smaller government but then want to police a lot of people's personal freedoms. I consider myself to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal, but since I like my civil liberties better than I like my money, I tend to vote left. (Also because, after the spending increase we saw during the Bush years, I feel like the political right are talking the talk more than walking it.) [/tangent]
 
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Thobewill

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That's about how much I got through too. Couldn't take any more.


Aside @ Thobe: I agree with you completely. It's pretty hypocritical to preach smaller government but then want to police a lot of people's personal freedoms. I consider myself to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal, but since I like my civil liberties better than I like my money, I tend to vote left. (Also because, after the spending increase we saw during the Bush years, I feel like the political right are talking the talk more than walking it.) [/tangent]

I ticket split quite often. If there's a fairly moderate fiscal conservative who is extremely conservative on social issues, I'll almost always vote left. If there is a democrat who is moderate on social issues but strongly liberal on the economy, I'll vote right, unless the opposing candidate reminds me of Sarah Palin. I especially dislike the enormous defense spending brought on by policing the world. What makes anyone think we have the right to do so? If anything, it just brings more people to hate the United states.

In any case, I love how people on any forum, no matter what, always derive the same shortened name for me. It's always "Thobe," never "Thob" or "Tho." I have no problem with this. It just interests me.

But, pertaining to the topic at hand, this woman is willfully ignorant, rejecting all of the evidence before looking at it, lacking understanding of how the processes responsible for evolution work, and making irrelevant strawmen about the philosophical implications of Darwinism rather than actually addressing the scientific points that Dawkins brings up. He mentions H. habilis, H. erectus, A. afarensis, and even early H. sapiens (Not H. sapiens sapiens, or modern human). However, when he asks her if she has seen them, she never, not even once responds directly. She always says either "I have looked at the evidence and do not see proof of Macroevolution from species to species (as if repeating a mantra over and over will make the [baby tone]evil atheists go away[/baby tone]) or that "we need to look at the philosophical implications of darwinism!"

The debate just went in circles. The Hominid transition fossils were brought up three or four times, and each time she changed the subject, and brough up philosophy. It was like this (in java):


public class WendyWright extends Creationist implements TeaPartyAgenda
{
public EvoDebate dawkinsDebate;

publicWendyWright(EvoDebate d, EvilAtheist a)
{
dawkinsDebate=d;
dawkinsDebate.setEvilAtheist(a);
}
public void refuteDawkins() //method called to refute dawkins
{
while(dawkinsDebate.isInProgress())
{
if(dawkinsDebate.currentArgument.instanceOf(transitionFossils)
{
int rand=(int)(Math.random()*4);

if(rand>2)
System.out.println("Let's look at the unfortunate philosophies encouraged by Darwinism");

else if(rand>1)
System.out.println("But doesn't all of the science show that we are all individual creations of god, each distinct from the rest?")

else if(rand>0)
System.out.println("But we have to teach the controversy, the falsehoods, and the evidence against evolution in schools")

else
System.out.println("I've examined the evidence and found nothing to support Macroevolution.")
}
}
}
/*Additional methods and code not shown*/



God i hope someone found that funny.

And....the forum is not very nice to my formatting, making my poorly written java much harder to read.
 
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visa

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Urgh. Wendy Wright. The stupid, unwavering grin even as she makes a total clown of herself. Oh well, it's an argument for education if nothing else, even if it painful to watch.
The stupid unwavering grin is there to keep the creationist numb nuts happy, they think she is doing a great job so she's playing to them, anyone with a brain can see right through her but she is not the least bit concerned about those people, she is talking to the creationists who believe that every word she's saying is true, she knows the audience she's aiming at.
 
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visa

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You've missed two semicolons. ;)

I think I've watched this before, at least parts of it. But I am very happy, that my English is not good enough to understand every word of it. :D
I certainly wish that my German was as bad as your English, I would be very pleased indeed.
 
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Delphiki

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God i hope someone found that funny.

And....the forum is not very nice to my formatting, making my poorly written java much harder to read.

Since I work with SQL all day long:


create or replace trigger t_respond_to_dawkins
after select on wendy.wright
for each row

begin
if dawkins.question like '%museum%' then
select
case when rand_answer = 1
then
"Let's look at the unfortunate philosophies encouraged by Darwinism"
when
when rand_answer = 2
then
"But doesn't all of the science show that we are all individual creations of god, each distinct from the rest?"
when
when rand_answer = 3
then
"But we have to teach the controversy, the falsehoods, and the evidence against evolution in schools"
else ""I've examined the evidence and found nothing to support Macroevolution."
from
(select
trunc(dbms_random.value*4) rand_answer from dual);

end if;
end;
/
 
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Delphiki

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1nG7M.png
 
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plindboe

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This saw a recent spotlight in the internet atheist community, so I figured I'd share it here as it's related to the conflict between creationists and knowledge. I recommend creationists and rationalists both check it out.

Thanks, I kinda enjoyed it. But there were several moments where I thought some obvious points needed to be made and where Dawkins let her off the hook. For instance her equating evolution and atheism I think should have been pursued more, since it's a bald-faced lie; how science is descriptive but not prescriptive; her claim that scientists say we evolved from slime should have been addressed; the point that religion shouldn't be taught in science class needed to be made. There were so many of her ridiculous claims that were left untouched, and perhaps it's partly due to Dawkins not being used to debating creationists, caring more about the science than addressing these people's misinformation about science.

Of course it's important to keep in mind that it was intended more like an interview than a debate, so he let her do most of the talking, which is understandable since he was making a TV program about these beliefs.

Peter :)
 
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Tomatoman

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Why do all the creationists Dawkins talks to have mad staring eyes? I mean, here is a picture of Dawkins arguing with pastor Ted Haggard (the anti-homosexual Haggard was sacked from his job after a male prostitute revealed his 3 year affair with him.)

haggard1.JPG


His eyes are nearly as out there as Wendy Wright's.


Is it compulsory for all creationsist to have mad staring eyes?
 
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Tomatoman

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Thanks, I kinda enjoyed it. But there were several moments where I thought some obvious points needed to be made and where Dawkins let her off the hook. For instance her equating evolution and atheism I think should have been pursued more, since it's a bald-faced lie; how science is descriptive but not prescriptive; her claim that scientists say we evolved from slime should have been addressed; the point that religion shouldn't be taught in science class needed to be made. There were so many of her ridiculous claims that were left untouched, and perhaps it's partly due to Dawkins not being used to debating creationists, caring more about the science than addressing these people's misinformation about science.

Of course it's important to keep in mind that it was intended more like an interview than a debate, so he let her do most of the talking, which is understandable since he was making a TV program about these beliefs.

Peter :)

I've heard Dawkins say that he doesn't feel he's very good at taking part in these debates. He is aware that he lets people off the hook, but it is because he is basically an academic and not a lawyer, preacher, salesman or politician.
 
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OllieFranz

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Thanks, I kinda enjoyed it. But there were several moments where I thought some obvious points needed to be made and where Dawkins let her off the hook. For instance her equating evolution and atheism I think should have been pursued more, since it's a bald-faced lie;

Dawkins was at two disadvantages there. He was determined to try to keep the debate focused as much as possible on the fossil evidence, and he is himself an atheist with limited knowledge of American fundamentalism. He kept trying to address that issue by mentioning the (Anglican) bishops who accept evolution.

... how science is descriptive but not prescriptive;

Yes, that was definitely a lost opportunity.

... her claim that scientists say we evolved from slime should have been addressed;

To be fair, he did try. The problem there is that he is too used to being allowed into the back rooms and storage areas of the museums, where the bulk of the fossils are kept and studied. Wendi (use of the cute "ditzy" spelling deliberate) has only been in the public exhibition rooms where the reconstructed species are displayed in dioramas, and she felt that these displays are more propaganda than evidence. She would voice that objection and change the subject every time, leaving Dawkins scrambling to catch up.

... the point that religion shouldn't be taught in science class needed to be made.

He fell into the trap of accepting "Darwinian" as a valid synonym for utilitarian. And, worse, he didn't recognize (or at least didn't argue against) the false dichotomy between this utilitarian philosophy and fundamentalist Christianity. If he had made these points, her argument would have collapsed.

There were so many of her ridiculous claims that were left untouched, and perhaps it's partly due to Dawkins not being used to debating creationists, caring more about the science than addressing these people's misinformation about science.

Of course it's important to keep in mind that it was intended more like an interview than a debate, so he let her do most of the talking, which is understandable since he was making a TV program about these beliefs.

Peter :)
 
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plindboe

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Dawkins was at two disadvantages there. He was determined to try to keep the debate focused as much as possible on the fossil evidence, and he is himself an atheist with limited knowledge of American fundamentalism. He kept trying to address that issue by mentioning the (Anglican) bishops who accept evolution.

Indeed, which was a fine point among others. I just wish that he'd asked the question "why do you keep equating evolution with atheism when so many theists around the world accept evolution?". Most of us realize that it's a propaganda-technique, but this woman pretends to be objective and without an agenda, so she should have been cornered more on the fact that so many christians and other theists are fine with the theory and yet she keeps misrepresenting it as atheism when it's so obviously not.


Yes, that was definitely a lost opportunity.

Indeed, and I'm sure in her mind she counted it as a victory that Dawkins "admitted" that so-called Darwinism shouldn't be applied socially. Merely observing things in nature, does not mean that we should apply them to our own societies. I wish he would have stressed the absurdity of such a notion. It's like accepting the germ theory of disease and on that basis considering anti-biotics immoral. It's that level of absurdity.

I also think he shouldn't have accepted the claim that Hitler's politics were based on Darwinism so readily. Hitler never mentioned Darwin in his writings, he showed a completely misunderstanding of evolution, even contradicting it in his writings, and books related to Darwin's theory were burned in 1935.

She also claimed that communism is based on the theory of evolution, with no contention by Dawkins. I can't see how one can make that link.


To be fair, he did try. The problem there is that he is too used to being allowed into the back rooms and storage areas of the museums, where the bulk of the fossils are kept and studied. Wendi (use of the cute "ditzy" spelling deliberate) has only been in the public exhibition rooms where the reconstructed species are displayed in dioramas, and she felt that these displays are more propaganda than evidence. She would voice that objection and change the subject every time, leaving Dawkins scrambling to catch up.

I don't think he addressed the specific "slime" claim, even though she mentioned it about 4 times. My problem is that she's all about being objective, non-biased and against ad hominem attacks, but she coats her language in strawmen that are meant to ridicule her opponents. She needed to be confronted with the question of why she uses the word "slime".


He fell into the trap of accepting "Darwinian" as a valid synonym for utilitarian. And, worse, he didn't recognize (or at least didn't argue against) the false dichotomy between this utilitarian philosophy and fundamentalist Christianity. If he had made these points, her argument would have collapsed.

He should have been much more clear about this, indeed.

Peter :)
 
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