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Standing Up

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We're going to look to the Babylonian Talmud to help us determine the the contents of the Church's Old Testament?

I think not.

(Tell me, isn't it the Babylonian Talmud where it says Jesus of Nazareth was a sorcerer?)

The point is the 400 year silence.

The churches are well able to determine their own contradictory Tradition, Canon, and Doctrine. As is well known, each group (RC, EO, OO, P) has done this.

What I'm trying to do is start from the claim that Jesus provided the bookends of both the OT and NT. From there, look at a variety of claims, one of which is fairly well established by now in this thread (400 years of silence, wherein even one of the books written during that time so attests).

But let's move on. Have you looked at the various Jewish sources cited that attest to the 400 years of silence? What have you found otherwise, keeping in mind what Paul said at Rom. 3:2?
 
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SummaScriptura

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<snip>But let's move on. Have you looked at the various Jewish sources cited that attest to the 400 years of silence? What have you found otherwise, keeping in mind what Paul said at Rom. 3:2?
You're kidding me, right?

This thread did not start yesterday. Some of the Jewish sources you put forth to support your claim were provided by me! Now you ask me if I have read any? You're too funny!!!

I'll restate now, as I have multiple times before, the citations I brought forth from the Apostolic era and earlier, paint a picture quite different from yours (as well as that of our Protestant forebears). Only the most hurried and sloppy of criticism of those sources can be used ot support the doctrine of the "400 silent years". The idea of a period of 400 silent years was developed AFTER the Apostolic era.
 
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Standing Up

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You're kidding me, right?

This thread did not start yesterday. Some of the Jewish sources you put forth to support your claim were provided by me! Now you ask me if I have read any? You're too funny!!!

I'll restate now, as I have multiple times before, the citations I brought forth from the Apostolic era and earlier, paint a picture quite different from yours (as well as that of our Protestant forebears). Only the most hurried and sloppy of criticism of those sources can be used ot support the doctrine of the "400 silent years". The idea of a period of 400 silent years was developed AFTER the Apostolic era.

Well, we've both slept since then. IIRC, you cited a source that agrees on the 400 years of silence, but I don't recall your citing a Jewish source saying otherwise. Please repost.

I know we talked about the issue that 400 years before Malachi, Zecharias was killed. But, I recently posted "new" info that the Hebrew canon was organized from Genesis to Chronicles (Abel to Zecharias), not as we have it now. As well, the sources cite the temple destruction and Spirit lifting.

PS What do you make of the bath kol idea?
 
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Montalban

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This thread did not start yesterday. Some of the Jewish sources you put forth to support your claim were provided by me! Now you ask me if I have read any? You're too funny!!!

We actually already have several examples of claims made to evidence that have been shown to be bogus. The problem here is that the claims continue to be repeated

We know that not all the Jews believed in that 'silence' because when they translated the OT into Greek (Septuagint) they included those books. For someone to then claim that they've yet seen any evidence that Jews would count these as prophetic is amazing

I feel like this thread is being held to ransom.

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Montalban

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We're going to look to the Babylonian Talmud to help us determine the the contents of the Church's Old Testament?

I think not.

(Tell me, isn't it the Babylonian Talmud where it says Jesus of Nazareth was a sorcerer?)

Indeed. I suppose we should include a Jewish understanding on OT prophecy and still await the Messiah. ^_^

The really strange point being made is an attempt to argue that the Jews believed in 400 years of silence - up till John the Baptist - but they would never have made that claim - the 'best' argument one could get is that prophecy left for ever.

It would be really odd for Jews to believe that propechy left between Malachi and John the Baptist - because then they'd be wondering if they were wrong in rejecting John the Baptist and Jesus.

So what has to happen is that one has to accept the Jewish belief that Malachi's the last prophet, then change back to Christian understanding that John the Baptist is the last of the old/first of the new because then the evidence doesn't fit the theory.

It's just chopping and changing all over the place to make a fit

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Standing Up

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Indeed. I suppose we should include a Jewish understanding on OT prophecy and still await the Messiah. ^_^

The really strange point being made is an attempt to argue that the Jews believed in 400 years of silence - up till John the Baptist - but they would never have made that claim - the 'best' argument one could get is that prophecy left for ever.

It would be really odd for Jews to believe that propechy left between Malachi and John the Baptist - because then they'd be wondering if they were wrong in rejecting John the Baptist and Jesus.

So what has to happen is that one has to accept the Jewish belief that Malachi's the last prophet, then change back to Christian understanding that John the Baptist is the last of the old/first of the new because then the evidence doesn't fit the theory.

It's just chopping and changing all over the place to make a fit

Not so odd at all. There were three additional rebellions that came later. The one in 70ad you've probably heard about; Messiah as lamb and lion if you get the drift. As well, consider the magi, consider the timing of Daniel. Consider Malachi's prophecy of elijah--John the Baptist. Consider the question, at this time is Messiah restoring the kingdom. Etc, Etc. Look at the reference a few posts up about those in Acts asking about the Spirit. From the perspective of Christians, it makes perfect sense and ties to the NT witness itself.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Not so odd at all. There were three additional rebellions that came later. The one in 70ad you've probably heard about; Messiah as lamb and lion if you get the drift. As well, consider the magi, consider the timing of Daniel. Consider Malachi's prophecy of elijah--John the Baptist. Consider the question, at this time is Messiah restoring the kingdom. Etc, Etc. Look at the reference a few posts up about those in Acts asking about the Spirit. From the perspective of Christians, it makes perfect sense and ties to the NT witness itself.

You string together a tantalizing aray of ideas, but you don't develop them here.

You need to make complete propostions which can then be either accepted or denied. Just to throw a bucnh of ideas out and hope that we can intuit your way of connecting the dots is an unreasonable expection on your part. (For the record, I have been reading your posts, and no, they don't answer the questions your post above raises).

For example, what is meant by "3 additional rebellions"? I am unaware of any discusssion of rebellions or their significance in this thread.

Also, what is meant by the rebellion in 70AD being associated with Messiah as lamb and lion? I cannot follow your course of thought.

How does the Apostolic expectation of the Messianic kingdom in 33 AD have anything to do with our discussion?

What does, "from the perspective of Christians, it makes perfect sense and ties to the NT witness itself", mean?

I think you should summarize your thoughts into a single, cohesive, sensible model and maybe then you will persuade someone by your evidence and conclusions, but maybe not. However, it seems to me you owe it to yourself to give your ideas a more crystalline form, so in any event you can either be seen as valid or not on the merits of the entirety of your argument.
 
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Montalban

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You string together a tantalizing aray of ideas, but you don't develop them here.

You need to make complete propostions which can then be either accepted or denied. Just to throw a bucnh of ideas out and hope that we can intuit your way of connecting the dots is an unreasonable expection on your part. (For the record, I have been reading your posts, and no, they don't answer the questions your post above raises).

For example, what is meant by "3 additional rebellions"? I am unaware of any discusssion of rebellions or their significance in this thread.

Also, what is meant by the rebellion in 70AD being associated with Messiah as lamb and lion? I cannot follow your course of thought.

How does the Apostolic expectation of the Messianic kingdom in 33 AD have anything to do with our discussion?

What does, "from the perspective of Christians, it makes perfect sense and ties to the NT witness itself", mean?

I think you should summarize your thoughts into a single, cohesive, sensible model and maybe then you will persuade someone by your evidence and conclusions, but maybe not. However, it seems to me you owe it to yourself to give your ideas a more crystalline form, so in any event you can either be seen as valid or not on the merits of the entirety of your argument.


It's a highly tortured theory

Firstly: Jews believed in 400 years of no prophets - falsified on many levels

Those that can be said to have believed that Malachi was the last prophet would not have said "Okay, that was 400 years ago, we're now back in a time of prophecy". It's a really odd idea that has some Protestants rejecting a number of books based on a twisting of Jewish ideas on final prophecy, interloping a 400 year period into that Jewish idea because those Protestants accept John the Baptist. This is probably the most tortured idea of them.

Secondly there are many Jews who believed in further prophecies given those same Jews included books in their Bible such as Tobit and Judith – in the Septuagint. To then claim never to have seen this evidence is incredible.

It's further evidenced (in the NT) that prophecies existed before John the Baptist's ministry, and that the temple was still being used.

Thirdly, it's based on a strained belief in what a prophecy is, This has been discredited. Prophecy does not solely reside within the books terms 'prophetic'.

Fourthly, it's a strange twisting on Wisdom's prophecies by claiming it says that Jesus won't die – even though the same terms are used in one of the Psalms.

Fifthly, based on now discredited claims that certain witnesses agree with the canon. Although the claims are repeated over and over again they're still shown to be false.

It's been shown that using Justin Martyr in his dialogue with a Jew was a classic case of taking him out of context. Justin Martyr doesn't refer to the 'rejected' books because he says he's debating someone who doesn't accept them. He notes this specifically.

Sixthly, based on another 'rule' selectively applied. The rule states that only books that claim within themselves to be inspired are inspired. Again this would collapse due to accepted books don't meet this rule, and rejected books do.

These six problems still remain. After many posts all I see now are simply claims that some argument has been won over some time ago.
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Standing Up

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It's a highly tortured theory

Firstly: Jews believed in 400 years of no prophets - falsified on many levels

Those that can be said to have believed that Malachi was the last prophet would not have said "Okay, that was 400 years ago, we're now back in a time of prophecy". It's a really odd idea that has some Protestants rejecting a number of books based on a twisting of Jewish ideas on final prophecy, interloping a 400 year period into that Jewish idea because those Protestants accept John the Baptist. This is probably the most tortured idea of them.

That's what they did though. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Secondly there are many Jews who believed in further prophecies given those same Jews included books in their Bible such as Tobit and Judith – in the Septuagint. To then claim never to have seen this evidence is incredible.

There's a difference between canon and scripture.

It's further evidenced (in the NT) that prophecies existed before John the Baptist's ministry, and that the temple was still being used.

John the baptist's conception, as in what David said, called from the womb.

The holy of holies was empty. See the post above about the 5 things missing (one of which was the Spirit of prophecy.

Thirdly, it's based on a strained belief in what a prophecy is, This has been discredited. Prophecy does not solely reside within the books terms 'prophetic'.

Prophets and times of the prophets. Maccabees tells us there were no genuine prophets at the time.

Fourthly, it's a strange twisting on Wisdom's prophecies by claiming it says that Jesus won't die – even though the same terms are used in one of the Psalms.

It is a prophecy? IIRC everyone else concluded it wasn't a prophecy.

Fifthly, based on now discredited claims that certain witnesses agree with the canon. Although the claims are repeated over and over again they're still shown to be false.

The earliest Christian list is c175 from Melito. The Protestant OT scripture is the same save Esther.

It's been shown that using Justin Martyr in his dialogue with a Jew was a classic case of taking him out of context. Justin Martyr doesn't refer to the 'rejected' books because he says he's debating someone who doesn't accept them. He notes this specifically.

Justin Martyr alleges 4 cases of rejected verses. These have been researched and found false. Again, Paul says the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. Paul or Justin?

Sixthly, based on another 'rule' selectively applied. The rule states that only books that claim within themselves to be inspired are inspired. Again this would collapse due to accepted books don't meet this rule, and rejected books do.

Law/prophets and/or law/prophets/writings. The other books were useful, but not scripture.

These six problems still remain. After many posts all I see now are simply claims that some argument has been won over some time ago.

Have you any other objections you don't think were answered?
 
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Montalban

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When someone offers evidence of witnesses that goes against what they claim, it undermines their argument. I guess basing an approach to Scripture that's reliant on Christ deniers doesn't help either.

It's been stated that the Holy of Holies was empty.

I've cited evidence that the Temple was still used. Others have added additional evidence.

It's now been re-stated again that the Holy of Holies was empty - and the question is asked if all my points have been addressed. I don't see as simply re-stating one's original point to evidence presented is actually addressing the point. What it is is a presentation of a 'just-so' statement that is then repeated at each instance of further argument as if it just covers the points raised.

The invention of books being in a canon but not scripture is a new one, however!

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Montalban

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The earliest Christian list is c175 from Melito. The Protestant OT scripture is the same save Esther.
The changes in emphasis don't help.

Aside from going from "Time of John the Baptist" to "Time of John the Baptist's conception" we've seen others emerge.

We've gone from seeing "Melito agrees with Origen and they agree with Josephus" to Melito agrees with them all, save concerning the book of Esther.

It's argument akin to the shell game.

How this helps argue for a particular canon is still unstated.

It's weird seeing someone change emphasis from their own theory



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Montalban

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Prophets and times of the prophets.
This has no meaning in the context of what I said.
Maccabees tells us there were no genuine prophets at the time.

This is again the original premise re-stated. It's not addressing points that were raised.

The statement regarding Maccabees in particular I have addressed

Re-hashing just-so statements; on and on

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Ortho_Cat

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The changes in emphasis don't help.

Aside from going from "Time of John the Baptist" to "Time of John the Baptist's conception" we've seen others emerge.

We've gone from seeing "Melito agrees with Origen and they agree with Josephus" to Melito agrees with them all, save concerning the book of Esther.

It's argument akin to the shell game.

How this helps argue for a particular canon is still unstated.

It's weird seeing someone change emphasis from their own theory



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We can't say with a certainty that Melito's list did not include Wisdom, neither can we say for certain that Josephus' list contains the exact description of the protestant canon that we know today. There are assumptions that have to be made in order to align these lists with P's canon, and so long as we have to rely on those assumptions, we have the potential for falsity and bias.
 
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Montalban

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We can't say with a certainty that Melito's list did not include Wisdom, neither can we say for certain that Josephus' list contains the exact description of the protestant canon that we know today. There are assumptions that have to be made in order to align these lists with P's canon, and so long as we have to rely on those assumptions, we have the potential for falsity and bias.

It's odd, it's gone from they agree, to almost an admission that they don't really - and this is days after that person cited the evidence that sunk their own claim!

Would you trust this theory? Not when the evidence cited by the person advocating it doesn't agree with the claims made

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heymikey80

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We can't say with a certainty that Melito's list did not include Wisdom, neither can we say for certain that Josephus' list contains the exact description of the protestant canon that we know today. There are assumptions that have to be made in order to align these lists with P's canon, and so long as we have to rely on those assumptions, we have the potential for falsity and bias.
We can say that neither agrees with any of the various A.S. canons -- though both are supposed to be A.S. representatives.

As long as we rely on the assumptions of Apostolic Succession, we have the potential for falsity and bias.
 
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Montalban

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We can say that neither agrees with any of the various A.S. canons -- though both are supposed to be A.S. representatives.

As long as we rely on the assumptions of Apostolic Succession, we have the potential for falsity and bias.

How's that work?

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Standing Up

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Athanasius:
The Jewish canon, or the Hebrew Bible, was universally received, while the Apocrypha added to the Greek version of the Septuagint were only in a general way accounted as books suitable for church reading,1293
1293 &#914;&#953;&#946;&#955;&#8055;&#945; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#947;&#953;&#957;&#969;&#963;&#954;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#945; (libri ecclesiastici), in distinction from &#954;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#8049;or &#954;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#950;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#945;on the one hand, and &#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#954;&#961;&#965;&#966;&#945;on the other. So Athanasius.
and thus as a middle class between canonical and strictly apocryphal (pseudonymous) writings. And justly; for those books, while they have great historical value, and fill the gap between the Old Testament and the New, all originated after the cessation of prophecy, and they cannot therefore be regarded as inspired, nor are they ever cited by Christ or the apostles.1294
History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Standing Up

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Mentioned many posts ago that it was Augustine who prevailed, rather than Jerome, in asserting the Roman version of the OT that includes the deteros. Thought this of interest from Jerome to Augustine:

Chap. V.
19. In another letter you [Augustine] ask why a former translation which I [Jerome] made of some of the canonical books was carefully marked with asterisks and obelisks, whereas I afterwards published a translation without these. You must pardon my saying that you seem to me not to understand the matter ...
NPNF1-01. The Confessions and Letters of St. Augustine, with a Sketch of his Life and Work | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

See also Chap. 21 in which, taking a page from Justin Martyr, he was accused of changing things.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Athanasius:
The Jewish canon, or the Hebrew Bible, was universally received, while the Apocrypha added to the Greek version of the Septuagint were only in a general way accounted as books suitable for church reading,1293
1293 &#914;&#953;&#946;&#955;&#8055;&#945; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#947;&#953;&#957;&#969;&#963;&#954;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#945; (libri ecclesiastici), in distinction from &#954;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#8049;or &#954;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#950;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#945;on the one hand, and &#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#954;&#961;&#965;&#966;&#945;on the other. So Athanasius.
and thus as a middle class between canonical and strictly apocryphal (pseudonymous) writings. And justly; for those books, while they have great historical value, and fill the gap between the Old Testament and the New, all originated after the cessation of prophecy, and they cannot therefore be regarded as inspired, nor are they ever cited by Christ or the apostles.1294
History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library


Athanasius didn't write this part. The deutero's were alluded to by Christ and the Apostles, as has been already demonstrated. Also, Athanasius accepted Baruch as part of the canonical old testament, and excludes Esther. Do you also?

What Athanasius did say, however:

But of these and such like inventions of idolatrous madness, Scripture taught us beforehand long ago, when it said, "The devising of idols was the beginning of fornication, and the invention of them, the corruption of life." (Athanasius, Against the Heathen, #11)

Here he refers to Wisdom 4:12 as "scripture". So it did appear that Athanasius did regard at least part of the deutero's as scripture.
 
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