Contraception

[CaliforniaJosiah]

(and yes, I do use NFP for grave reasons)

Periodic abstinence is an active choice. It is inconveninent. It requires self-control. That does not negate the fact that is it purposefully avoiding conception.

How does this ACTION on your part have the sole, singular purpose and intent of having more babies, of conceiving more often - of being pregnant as often and as much as biologically possible?



[Edit: See posts 302, 305 and 306 following]

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[cobweb]

How does this ACTION on your part have the sole, singular purpose and intent of having more babies, of conceiving more often - of being pregnant as often and as much as biologically possible?.

It doesn't. I did use it to conceive one of my children, but my sole purpose in using it is to avoid pregnancy.

Among couples our age, we have the fewest number of children in our small mission parish. The average is 3-4. The priest has 5 and the (soon to be) deacon has 7.

To be perfectly honest... I have never known a Catholic woman IRL who used NFP. We discussed it at work and I was the only one who was not on Depo or the pill. They all think that I am crazy.

 

[patricius79]

Periodic abstinence is an active choice. It is inconveninent. It requires self-control. That does not negate the fact that is it purposefully avoiding conception.

yes, but I don't think it is morally equivalent to having sex with a condom, e.g, because in that case one is having sex without giving one's natural fertility or infertility to the other

I do agree that a person might begin using NFP and note its benefits and then gradually come to see its moral difference

 

[cobweb]

yes, but I don't think it is morally equivalent to having sex with a condom, e.g, because in that case one is having sex without giving one's natural fertility or infertility to the other

I do agree that a person might begin using NFP and note its benefits and then gradually come to see its moral difference

If you are using NFP to avoid pregnancy then one is ALSO having sex without giving one's natural fertility or infertility to the other. You are actively depriving your spouse of marital relations during fetrtile days with the sole purpose of avoiding pregnancy. This also means that you are purposely making sure that the only times that you have sexual contact with your spouse.... you are infertile.

I would say that is morally equivalent.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

but my sole purpose in using it is to avoid pregnancy.

Thanks.

Understand, please, I TOTALLY respect that and I have NO desire or intent to debate the morality or wisdom of that... I just want to understand ONE (rather theoretical) aspect: When you do this to avoid conception, do you sense that it might be appropriate thus to call this contraceptive in purpose?

To be perfectly honest... I have never known a Catholic woman IRL who used NFP. We discussed it at work and I was the only one who was not on Depo or the pill. They all think that I am crazy.

I know one for sure (one of my teachers). She used it for some years to avoid pregnancy, then found she was having a bit of a problem HAVING kids and so used it to try to help things - and a few kids later, used it to avoid more. This was never an "issue" for me (hey, I'm single) and never really thought about it much in my Catholic days, she certainly presented all that as if that IS NFP.... It's purpose was family planning (aka birth control), using the preferred Papal method.

I mentioned in my post to D'Ann that my sister took the required class at her parish. I didn't mention that during the break, the couples talked - and she reported that NONE of them had any intentions at all of doing this; most were already using other methods.... ONE of the things that troubled me, a bit..., in Catholicism was a kind of "don't ask, don't tell" mentality - just smile, play along, and ignore what you were told. My sis was troubled by that as she struggled.... My sis and I are made of some of the same stuff. I couldn't smile and pretend, either. BTW, my sister was willing... it was her cradle Catholic spouse-to-be who shouted "no way!" She was fine with that.


Blessings to you.... and your family!


- Josiah





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[cobweb]

Thanks.

Understand, please, I TOTALLY respect that and I have NO desire or intent to debate the morality or wisdom of that... I just want to understand ONE (rather theoretical) aspect: When you do this to avoid conception, do you sense that it might be appropriate thus to call this contraceptive in purpose?

Absolutely. I've already stated in this thread that I consider it contraceptive.

 

[MKJ]

If you are using NFP to avoid pregnancy then one is ALSO having sex without giving one's natural fertility or infertility to the other. You are actively depriving your spouse of marital relations during fetrtile days with the sole purpose of avoiding pregnancy. This also means that you are purposely making sure that the only times that you have sexual contact with your spouse.... you are infertile.

I would say that is morally equivalent.

I'm not sure it is the same, but OTOH I do not understand people saying the purpose of NFP is not contraceptive. NFP has good results at avoiding pregnancy, it has a higher rate of success than condoms. People using it to avoid want to avoid conception, pregnancy, and a child. They wouldn't be avoiding those things anyway. If the argument was that NFP is ok because it is not that great a method and there is always a chance of pregnancy, that is false.

Where I think their might be a difference is in practice. In NFP, to avoid pregnancy you actually have to not have sex. You have to understand clearly the connection between sexuality and pregnancy, and you have to actually abstain when you are fertile. And the more you care, the more you may have to abstain.

This is different than a condom (or whatever) where you are actually separating entirely sex from procreation. There is sex, but it becomes something other than ordered toward procreation, it becaomes an act without reference to fertility. In fact, I think this speaks to why people prefer the Pill or shots or an IUD - it allows them to not think about the real implications of sex at the time of engaging in it.

So to me, the psychological effects are quite different even at this level, plus of course because of the nature of NFP people may be less inclined to use it for selfish or frivolous reasons, and it means good communication and a prayer life between spouses must develop.

 

[MKJ]

Condoms are not abortion. Either provide scientific evidence.... or stop insisting that they are.

Yes please. It is a weird thing to say.

 

[patricius79]

If you are using NFP to avoid pregnancy then one is ALSO having sex without giving one's natural fertility or infertility to the other. .

I don't think so. and the different divorce rates between the two groups are interesting: among Catholic e..g about 1% vs about 50%

and we know that two means used to reach the same end can be intrinsically different as to morality

however, the Christian Church does agree that NFP can be used with a wrong intention: whether that means avoiding pregnancy for selfish reasons or trying to get pregnant for selfish reasons

in either case, the Church's message is mercy, infinite Mercy

 

[cobweb]

I don't think so. and the different divorce rates between the two groups are interesting: among Catholic e..g about 1% vs about 50%

and we know that two means used to reach the same end can be intrinsically different as to morality

however, the Christian Church does agree that NFP can be used with a wrong intention: whether that means avoiding pregnancy for selfish reasons or trying to get pregnant for selfish reasons

in either case, the Church's message is mercy, infinite Mercy

Since I am not Roman Catholic... this means little to me. "The Christian Church" in my view is not in Communion with yours.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I don't think so.

Does the Catholic Church say it's okay to use NFP to NOT conceive (at least at this time), to briefly cease having sex so as to not conceive now?






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[patricius79]

Does the Catholic Church say it's okay to use NFP to NOT conceive (at least at this time), to briefly cease having sex so as to not conceive now?
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yes, of course. it's not intrinsically wrong like contraception is. but must be used for serious reasons and under the right circumstances

the Biblical Church's teaching is that it is fundamentally different to have sex without giving oneself fully

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Does the Catholic Church say it's okay to use NFP to NOT conceive (at least at this time), to briefly cease having sex so as to not conceive now?

yes, of course.

Case closed.....


I need say no more.





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[D'Ann]

I mentioned in my post to D'Ann that my sister took the required class at her parish. I didn't mention that during the break, the couples talked - and she reported that NONE of them had any intentions at all of doing this; most were already using other methods.... ONE of the things that troubled me, a bit..., in Catholicism was a kind of "don't ask, don't tell" mentality - just smile, play along, and ignore what you were told. My sis was troubled by that as she struggled.... My sis and I are made of some of the same stuff. I couldn't smile and pretend, either. BTW, my sister was willing... it was her cradle Catholic spouse-to-be who shouted "no way!" She was fine with that.

And that is why the Catholic Church struggles. We have a lot of Catholics, similar to like the Kennedys who profess to be Catholic and yet don't understand or perhaps accept the fullness of Catholic Church teaching on pro-creation.

There are a lot of Catholics who are good Christians, but they don't understand this branch of Catholicism. That doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is teaching anything contrary to it's dogma, but rather, us Catholics kinda put a smile on our face and say yes to the Catholic Church, but in our heart, we struggle and say no... I'm going to do it my way. And we do that because we don't fully understand Catholic teaching. Pope John Paul II wrote a wonderful book called Theology of the Body and if Catholics were to read that, they would have a deeper and profound understanding as to why the Catholic Church is against any kind of birth control and why Catholics should be pro-creation and against birth control, but when you see the Kennedys and other well-known and unknown Catholics fighting against the dogma of pro-creation... well, that explains why non-Catholics are confused with what the Catholic Church actually teaches. It doesn't mean that Catholics are evil or not good and loving Catholic Christians, but rather... we all are human and we all struggle with different Christian issues.

So... have a nice day and I'm done. Believe what you want... the truth is the truth.

God bless,

D'Ann

 

[D'Ann]

Does the Catholic Church say it's okay to use NFP to NOT conceive (at least at this time), to briefly cease having sex so as to not conceive now?

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No, the Catholic Church does not say it's okay to use NFP or any contraception for the sole purpose to not conceive.

 

[cobweb]

yes, of course. it's not intrinsically wrong like contraception is. but must be used for serious reasons and under the right circumstances

the Biblical Church's teaching is that it is fundamentally different to have sex without giving oneself fully

No, the Catholic Church does not say it's okay to use NFP or any contraception for the sole purpose to not conceive.

Perhaps you guys should have a brief huddle and get back to us when you can agree on an answer.

 

[sunlover1]

Originally Posted by patricius79

yes, of course. it's not intrinsically wrong like contraception is. but must be used for serious reasons and under the right circumstances

the Biblical Church's teaching is that it is fundamentally different to have sex without giving oneself fully
​

Originally Posted by D'Ann

No, the Catholic Church does not say it's okay to use NFP or any contraception for the sole purpose to not conceive.

​

Perhaps you guys should have a brief huddle and get back to us when you can agree on an answer.

Well THAT was awkward...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well THAT was awkward...

1. I'm better appreciating what my cradle Catholic brother-in-law said about this: "When the Church makes up it's mind, let me know." I think his perspective is understandable...


2. Of course, MY singular point is only that IF it's used contraceptively, then it's contraceptive. Several have confirmed that's how it's used, some that the RCC approves of such and teaches such.


3. Now, D'Ann makes an interesting (and important) point - if the Catholics here (and it seems to me....Catholics everywhere) are wrong and the Family PLANNING has one and only one meaning, purpose and teaching: how to have as many children as is biologically possible, then perhaps it IS often (perhaps almost always) contraceptive but should not be. (Isn't it still birth control - done specifically to control birth?). Valid point; perhaps a theoretical one - but a valid point nonetheless. Of course, other Catholics categorically and fundamentally disagree with her.


4. I've appreciated ALL the responses so far.... they all present a piece of the puzzle, a part of the picture, and give insight into the reality. Thanks!





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[Vendetta]

Statement withdrawn before I get shown up for not knowing what I'm talking about. Regardless. NFP is not necessarily contraception. Contraception is immoral. NFP can be or always is moral. End of story.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Having sex when she is on an infertile period is not in itself immoral. Example: she is pregnant already, you know she won't conceive by you having it with her, but it is not a sin to have it with her.

Abstaining from sex when she is in her fertile period is not in itself immoral.
Abstaining from sex for reproduction when you do not have the means to support a(nother) child at the moment is not in itself immoral.

If any of these are immoral, feel free to show me how.

2. Of course, MY singular point is only that IF it's used contraceptively, then it's contraceptive. Several have confirmed that's how it's used, some that the RCC approves of such and teaches such.

2370 ... birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158

NFP does not disrupt any natural process of the sexual act. To say that NFP is NOT in conformity with the objective criteria of morality, you must be professing that both abstaining from sex during fertile periods is immoral and having sex during infertile periods is immoral.