Contraception

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I know of no denomination (Protestant or otherwise) that stated that contraception was wrong prior to 1930 (certainly no Protestant one), and I know of none today (the RCC being the foremost proponent of contraception and teacher of contraceptive birth control methodology)

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Uh, right. I think you need to learn a little more history.

Share the history for us....

Let's see... Catholic often claim anywhere from 18,000 to 50,000 Protestant denominations in the world (no idea where this comes from, but never seems to matter). List for us all of them that officially stated that contraception is wrong sometime before 1930.

I think if YOU learn a little history, it might enlighten you....


It seems moot to me. While FEW Protestant denominations are pro-contraception today and NONE known to me have contraceptive birth control classes at their parishes, since 1960's anyway, the RCC is very pro-contraception, is the world's foremost teacher of contraceptive birth control and my Catholic parish even held classes in it (required for those desiring to be married in the church).





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[sunlover1]

what exactly is so evil about oral sex before marriage or marital rape? neither are explicitly condemned in Scripture,

Go for it, I was asking what's evil about condoms.

the N.T. canon of which has no historical source but the Catholic Tradition. (the Bible doesn't say that oral sex is "fornication" or "lust". what is wrong with a little experimentation?)

Hey, I'm not standing in your way.. but what's evil about condoms?

the historic Trinitarian Church--the Biblical Church-

WOAH, ya lost me now.
later.

Fruits...

ahh, makes sense.

 

[Vendetta]

Share the history for us....

Let's see... Catholic often claim anywhere from 18,000 to 50,000 Protestant denominations in the world (no idea where this comes from, but never seems to matter). List for us all of them that officially stated that contraception is wrong sometime before 1930.

I think if YOU learn a little history, it might enlighten you....

Here you go. First link provides actual content. Wikipedia articles make claims and back those claims up with footnoted references.

Touchstone Archives: Children of the Reformation
Protestant views on birth control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian views on contraception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Share the history for us....

Let's see... Catholic often claim anywhere from 18,000 to 50,000 Protestant denominations in the world (no idea where this comes from, but never seems to matter). List for us all of them that officially stated that contraception is wrong sometime before 1930.

I think if YOU learn a little history, it might enlighten you....


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Here you go.

Touchstone Archives: Children of the Reformation
Protestant views on birth control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian views on contraception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You should have READ these before you provided the links....

NO mention of even ONE denomination - Protestant or otherwise - before 1930. In any of the links you provided. Not one.

And nothing to support the RCC's embrace of contraception and it's active support and teaching of contraceptive birth control - even in classes taught at the parish.





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[sunlover1]

It seems moot to me. While FEW Protestant denominations are pro-contraception today and NONE known to me have contraceptive birth control classes at their parishes, since 1960's anyway, the RCC is very pro-contraception, is the world's foremost teacher of contraceptive birth control and my Catholic parish even held classes in it (required for those desiring to be married in the church). .

In reality:
SAME thing. "Sex is nice, but lets not make a baby!"

Why is the ONE way evil ? I'll tell you why..... Its not...
Maybe it sounds holier if you "say" that you practice
your own type of nonbirth control and your own type of nondivorce...

And what's even worse, to say and not DO.
Putting unnecessary burdens on men and women.
(How many RCCs do you know? Do they have large
families? can we talk?)
From RCC website:
(Reuters Life!) - Some 98 percent of sexually active Catholic women in the United States have used contraceptive methods banned by the church, research published on Wednesday showed.

A new report from the Guttmacher Institute, the nonprofit sexual health research organization, shows that only 2 percent of Catholic women, even those who regularly attend church, rely on natural family planning.

The latest data shows practices of Catholic women are in line with women of other religious affiliations and adult American women in general.

Since I was raised in the church and all of my kin still are in the church
I can honestly say that beyond a shadow of a doubt not ONE family in
all of my extended kin has followed this rule. Almost all of them have
1 or 2 kids and a few have 3. Again, can we talk?

Hopefully our GT RCC friends are of the truthful type as were the ones
in the other forums I read just now.

Bottom line:
People people pushing a rule that they don't even practice themselves.
Shame on anyone who'd do that..

 

[Vendetta]

You should have READ these before you provided the links....

NO mention of even ONE denomination - Protestant or otherwise - before 1930. In any of the links you provided. Not one.

And nothing to support the RCC's embrace of contraception and it's active support and teaching of contraceptive birth control - even in classes taught at the parish.

Lolwut?

First link: Luther and Calvin are opposed to contraception, among other places, in the section titled "Essential Procreation".

Second link: "Still, all major early Protestant Reformers, and indeed Protestants in general until the twentieth century, condemned birth control as a contravention of God's procreative purpose for marriage."

Third link: The first sentence.


The Catholic Church has never and does not embrace contraception. What are they teaching in classes at this parish in your example?

 

[Heavens]

As it isn't anything referred to by God or His Christ or any of His Saints, contraception is a moot point.
Besides, from what I see, the catholic church is about the last place anyone might trust for proper sexual conduct.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You should have READ these before you provided the links....

NO mention of even ONE denomination - Protestant or otherwise - before 1930. In any of the links you provided. Not one.

And nothing to support the RCC's embrace of contraception and it's active support and teaching of contraceptive birth control - even in classes taught at the parish.


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Lolwut?

I have no idea what "lolwut" means....

No, the 3 links never so much as MENTIONED any Protestant denomination with any stand on anything prior to 1930. I followed the links and I read the article in entirety. I'm sure you were hoping I wouldn't.

The Catholic Church has never and does not embrace contraception. What are they teaching in classes at this parish in your example?

The Catholic Church cannot practice contraception, but it is perhaps the world's foremost promoter of such and world's largest teacher of contraceptive birth control. It taught such a method at our parish center - a required class for those who desired to be married in the church. I know of no denomination more involved in contraception and birth control than is the RCC.






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[JacktheCatholic]

Catholic theology on contraception deals first with God and His design for mankind and then it considers the heart of man and his intentions and such. Any form of birth control is evil because it interferes with God's design for mankind. Anything that works against God's design is evil by that nature.

As a Catechism teacher for our Church I know that this is what the RCC teaches globally. If any RCC is teaching otherwise then they are not teaching as the RCC teaches but some new form of Protestantism in the church (as deceitful as that is).

 

[JacktheCatholic]

NFP is in essence the man and wife abstaining from sex for God and in this way it conforms with God's design and is a form of worship to God and helps the married couple grow closer in a truly Christian love that places God before self.

 

[MrPolo]

You're doing it for pleasure.. so .. selfishly.. more or less..

In NFP there is no unnatural means of contra-cepting involved. The gifts of sexuality are not hindered. The act remains open to life as nature enables. The persons give themselves entirely to each other in the act as intended. With artificial contraception, none of these factors are involved and that's where the giving of bride and bridegroom is violated.

The 2 are not the same thing regardless of your insistence.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The Catholic Church cannot practice contraception, but it is perhaps the world's foremost promoter of such and world's largest teacher of contraceptive birth control. It taught such a method at our parish center - a required class for those who desired to be married in the church. I know of no denomination more involved in contraception and birth control than is the RCC.






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Intellectual honesty is something we all should practice. We all know that a liar is a child of Satan and as Christians we all strive to be children of God and so we are honest. I know you mean well but this statement that the RCC promotes contraception is not the truth and so it needs to be clarified that your personal experience at your parish is that they (your parish) are not fully in line with Catholic teachings. But to falsely claim the entire RCC is promoting contraception when they are not is false and not the truth. So, provide support to this false claim (which I know is non existent) or please be careful in your wording.

 

[MrPolo]

True Saints don't care what church organizations teach, or taught, whether protestant

And the Protestants of tomorrow will say the same thing about the views of Protestants in this thread. There's hope for Christian sexual teaching to be united on the matter as they once were even at the Reformation!!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I want you to provide proof (support needed) that the RCC is a promoter of contraception.

Um, read almost any thread by a Catholic on the topic.... Read almost any Catholic website on the subject.... It's all you need.

The emphasis of the RCC on this for the past 40+ years (since the sexual revolution) has been on HOW couples can have sex - and yet not likely conceive a child (um, that IS the definition of contraception - what is COUNTER to conception, what reduces the changes of conception).

As you likely know, the RCC not only seems VERY focused on this whole issue of contraception, but it seems it is the only denomination on the planet that has taken upon itself to teach the world HOW to practice contraception - even teaching contraceptive birth control classes in their parish (as mine did), even REQUIRING couples to take the class in contraception before they can be married in the Church.

Surely, you know all this....

this statement that the RCC promotes contraception is not the truth

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I thought this was common knowledge....

I was told (I can't verify such) that until the 1960's, the RCC had an UNOFFICIAL but popular teaching that couples should just have sex - and trust God concerning conception. Anything otherwise (contraception) was sinful and wrong. The only discussed alternative was abstainance - couples simply having a sexless marriage - but this was generally also rejected (except in certain medical situations).

But in the midst of the sexual revolution around the world, the RCC changed it's position. It began to say (now officially) that couples that didn't want (or shouldn't have) children SHOULD and COULD have sex (as often as any other couple) - just in CONTRACEPTIVE ways, ways that would COUNTER conception. Because it was opposed to generally accepted and effective ways to do that (for example, the new "birth control pill") it began to promote it's own favored method of contraceptive birth control. And it still does.

My parish had classes in this - promoting and teaching contraception. So did the parish where my sister and her (now) husband attended at the time. Both mandated a class in contraceptive birth control in order to be married in the Church - so they did. My sister commented that during the break, the couples noted (almost all of them) that they were just doing this to get married - most either were already using other methods or planned to. Although I'm not married (and no longer Catholic), it seems VERY few Catholics are preferring this particular method of contraceptive control - but they DO seem to be embracing the view that contraceptive birth control is okay - they ARE getting that message, they just don't seem to prefer the method the RCC is currently so actively promoting and teaching.

How can you say the RCC is not encouraging contraception when it is the world's foremost teacher of such? I'm not following you, Jack.




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[JacktheCatholic]

CaliforniaJosiah yet again you provide no support.

I provided support from the Vatican which is coming from the Pope and Magisterium which is the teaching authority for the entire RCC. You have provided nothing and your experiences cannot trump my source which is the Teaching Authority for the whole RCC.

So please show the same intellectual honesty I am showing you and provide support or do what you should and admit that the sources I provided are final and that you only have sources based on experiences from places and people that either do not know what their church teaches or they are hypocrites who boldly lie by saying they are RC when they truly are not.

 

[patricius79]

In NFP there is no unnatural means of contra-cepting involved. The gifts of sexuality are not hindered. The act remains open to life as nature enables. The persons give themselves entirely to each other in the act as intended. With artificial contraception, none of these factors are involved and that's where the giving of bride and bridegroom is violated.

The 2 are not the same thing regardless of your insistence.

I agree, and would add that the pro-contraceptive argument repeatedly implies that the end justifies the means/moral relativism

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

CaliforniaJosiah yet again you provide no support.

.... I do not believe you think the RCC offers two options: Have sex or be sexless. You are Catholic - an informed Catholic, I just don't accept that you actually think that.

What it has been so passionately promoting for longer than I've been alive is HAVE SEX! Often, as often as any couple - but you may DO IT in ways that are contraceptive, that are designed to DISCOURAGE to WORK AGAINST, to be CONTRA conception. It's called contraception. It's called birth CONTROL - not by being sexless but by having sex in contraceptive ways. Surely you know this, Jack! You honestly don't?








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[tadoflamb]

For the record, NFP can also be used to achieve conception for couples who are having trouble doing so. When my wife and I learned about NFP they were very clear about that. Therefore, NFP couldn't be considered a form of contraception such as a condom or the pill.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In NFP there is no unnatural means of contra-cepting involved.

So, counting days, taking temperatures, having sex then but not now - this is what all species do in relation to sex? I see NOTHING 'natural' about contraception - much less teaching birth control methods.

If it's natural, why does the RCC need to teach it in classes?

The gifts of sexuality are not hindered.

Exactly.

"HAVE SEX!!!! Just do it in ways that will discourage conception (ie is contraceptive). We'll teach you how!" I know of no other denomination so supportive of contraception and that teaches contraceptive birth control - right there at the parish center, required for couples desiring to be married.




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[JacktheCatholic]

.... I do not believe you think the RCC offers two options: Have sex or be sexless. You are Catholic - an informed Catholic, I just don't accept that you actually think that.

What it has been so passionately promoting for longer than I've been alive is HAVE SEX! Often, as often as any couple - but you may DO IT in ways that are contraceptive, that are designed to DISCOURAGE to WORK AGAINST, to be CONTRA conception. It's called contraception. It's called birth CONTROL - not by being sexless but by having sex in contraceptive ways. Surely you know this, Jack! You honestly don't?








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You would not be confused if you stopped relying on the false information you have received thus far and read the quotes and/or links I have provided from the Vatican on the real and true teachings of the RCC.

Marriage need not have sex at all in order to still be a marriage. An example is that the early Christians taught the Apostles became celibate for God and stopped having sexual relations with their wives. Though many try to argue this. But we cannot argue that, when Paul even gives celibacy such honor as a virtue.

Regardless, I have provided the teachings as given by the Magisterium and Pope and they are found in the CCC and so there is the support for all this and the explanations as well in sources I have provided like Humanae Vitae.