"Dear Lord, I am a good person and an Atheist . . ."

[Eudaimonist]

Hi Mark. Haven't seen you in a while. Neither have I seen you express quite this before, and it does add to the picture. The idea of being born with original sin is a modern addition, not what the Apostles taught. We do separate ourselves from God. He also reaches out to every individual personally, and we have to reject that to remain separated from Him. Not sure how any of this info would factor in were you to consider it, but there it is.

You are the only Christian I've seen to deny that people are born with Original Sin. This is a first. This doctrine isn't in the Nicene Creed, but I thought it was a standard view to explain the need for Salvation for everyone.

Not sure what connection you're making. If it hasn't been developed already, could you explain?

If it is so very easy to sin that everyone naturally does at least at some point in their lives, then saying that people did that out of their own free will seems like a weak observation.

From a man-centered worldview, the whole thing could certainly paint G-d as evil, yes.

And the Jews suffering in concentration camps should be told not to have such a "Jew-centered worldview", and if only they had a Hitler-centered worldview they'd see that he wasn't such a bad guy?

The human perspective is all we have, and it would be silly to admonish someone suffering in hell for having a human perspective. This isn't being self-centered, but recognzing that human beings are fully a part of the ethical issue.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

No, I'm comparing the Bible not supporting abortion to the Bible not supporting TV. Without trying to crowbar statements into the concept, it talks about neither.

Whoa there, this is not true.

 

[razeontherock]

I dont see how anyone can seriously believe that anything jesus supposedly said was written down accurately many years later.

This is really very easy to address. The Gospels are the most sacred element, of a 1,000's strong movement that rose quickly and all met in one place. They had leadership structure already in place, and all the eyewitnesses were the leaders of the new movement. Nobody was concerned with writing anything down at the time, as the force of the events was more than enough to be emblazened into vivid memory. Plus, the Gospels were recited weekly, in front of the full company.

The only reason any of it was ever written down was that as persecution and growth forced physical movement, new leaders wanted to be sure not to mess things up and so requested a written record. This was well within 40 years, and I can remember mundane things from over 40 years ago, in vivid detail. So there's nothing really special about what you're asking, it's just out of place in today's society.

 

[razeontherock]

That would be all well and good if in fact the gospels were harmonius. If you've never done a side by side comparison of events, you might be surprised how incongruous the accounts really are.

Nothing that causes a problem. In fact it lines up perfectly with what modern studies show about human nature, so it shows that people recorded this. Just as we would expect

 

[razeontherock]

And Jesus will kill these people?

You betcha! With the sword that comes out of His mouth. [Interesting thing about Rev; it is a vision. Every single Biblical vision that is interpreted for us was quite different than the actual event it pertained to. Should we expect that precedent to be broken?

 

[razeontherock]

That is where the whole thing breaks down as far as I am concerned.

Funny, but what you're responding to is actually out of context. "Be brought to your remembrance" specifically refers to being put on trial, martyr style. Does not pertain to this discussion.

 

[razeontherock]

You are the only Christian I've seen to deny that people are born with Original Sin. This is a first. This doctrine isn't in the Nicene Creed, but I thought it was a standard view to explain the need for Salvation for everyone.

Well the Orthodox are not a large majority, but they are not a tiny fringe either. This is their understanding. They are the ones with the congregations that go back to the Apostles. I find it really hard to pick nits with their positions, and you know how I am about picking nits

And the Jews suffering in concentration camps should be told not to have such a "Jew-centered worldview", and if only they had a Hitler-centered worldview they'd see that he wasn't such a bad guy?

The human perspective is all we have, and it would be silly to admonish someone suffering in hell for having a human perspective. This isn't being self-centered, but recognzing that human beings are fully a part of the ethical issue.

This started with your statement that the deck is stacked against mankind. I pointed out the Christian concept of creation is G-d-centered, and that the deck is intentionally stacked against Himself rather than us. I'll develop that idea with the addition that nothing about this life is intended for our glorification or honor, but our servitude. This does go against our natural impulses, yes; but it is a consistent theme. I would think you could easily reconcile this with the concept of daimon? Surely you know that faithfully pursuing that does not result in concentration camps?

 

[Freodin]

This is really very easy to address. The Gospels are the most sacred element, of a 1,000's strong movement that rose quickly and all met in one place. They had leadership structure already in place, and all the eyewitnesses were the leaders of the new movement. Nobody was concerned with writing anything down at the time, as the force of the events was more than enough to be emblazened into vivid memory. Plus, the Gospels were recited weekly, in front of the full company.

The only reason any of it was ever written down was that as persecution and growth forced physical movement, new leaders wanted to be sure not to mess things up and so requested a written record. This was well within 40 years, and I can remember mundane things from over 40 years ago, in vivid detail. So there's nothing really special about what you're asking, it's just out of place in today's society.

Say, how do you know all that?

 

[Eudaimonist]

This started with your statement that the deck is stacked against mankind. I pointed out the Christian concept of creation is G-d-centered, and that the deck is intentionally stacked against Himself rather than us.

This just seems like wordplay to me. I don't see how it affects the core ethics of the issue.

I'll develop that idea with the addition that nothing about this life is intended for our glorification or honor, but our servitude. This does go against our natural impulses, yes; but it is a consistent theme.

I think it goes against more than just natural impulses. It does not paint God well to have such little regard for humanity that he would simply desire our servitude, instead of respecting us enough to achieve our own honor in his eyes.

I would think you could easily reconcile this with the concept of daimon?

I wouldn't want to try. I don't associate heeding the call of one's daimon with "servitude". There is no conflict between faithfully pursuing one's calling in life and earning honor or glory.

Surely you know that faithfully pursuing that does not result in concentration camps?

Pursuing a productive calling in life, or dedicating oneself to a proper ethical ideal, are unlikely to lead to concentration camps.

However, I wouldn't want to mix in the idea of "servitude". This easily leads to the idea of second-class persons -- the servants -- who aren't entitled to achieve their own honor or glory. How easy it becomes to be uncaring when they end up in concentration camps... or hell. They are "servants". Too bad for them.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[mzungu]

I was brought up to believe that if you pull a gun then you have to use it. That if you want to threaten someone then you do it yourself and not behind someone's back or by proxy. If God allows people to do the threatening for him then by all definitions he cannot be omniscient nor omnipotent.

thousands of years and he has yet to show his face nor his might!

I do not wish to insult the religious and it is not my intent to do so; All I am doing is avoiding insulting my own intelligence!

 

[razeontherock]

This just seems like wordplay to me. I don't see how it affects the core ethics of the issue.

The difference between the deck being intentionally stacked against us, or against God Himself, is HUGE. Let's leave that off for now.

1. I think it goes against more than just natural impulses. It does not paint God well to have such little regard for humanity that he would simply desire our servitude, instead of respecting us enough to achieve our own honor in his eyes.

There is no conflict between faithfully pursuing one's calling in life and earning honor or glory.

2. Pursuing a productive calling in life, or dedicating oneself to a proper ethical ideal, are unlikely to lead to concentration camps.

3. How easy it becomes to be uncaring when they end up in concentration camps... or hell. They are "servants". Too bad for them.

I think this expresses your thinking on the subject thoroughly enough to address. Unfortunately you have me at a disadvantage, in that what I express to counter this is not my own, and the entirety of it is beyond my understanding. So I'm not likely to be as concise Still, you've come to some very drastic conclusions, (expressed elsewhere, not here) with these ideas at their core. Let me try breaking this down into workable chunks, starting with the last statement in your quote:

#3 is an appropriate statement to make to human leadership. Your valid concern here is thoroughly flushed away within C! God has gone to great lengths to cause mankind to avoid hell, and it is quite possible. This would be, the opposite of the uncaring position you conclude. Hell is a last straw final resort, and the fact that there is no consensus of opinion on it's nature tells us the details aren't presently knowable. Is it corrective? Is it destructive, as in temporary? Is it eternal punishment? Intelligent and learned C's hold all 3 positions, because each can be supported. With no sure answer, no conclusion can be drawn based on this element. It's sole function is to help our species turn from evil, via the fear of the Lord.

Yet another aspect of the servant mentality expressed in the Bible: if any among you would become great, let him be servant of all. Do you see how this precept directly counters what you have expressed here? Of course i don't know, but it seems to me that you have not encountered C leadership of this type. I know it's difficult for me to find that, and I've never known it to remain corruption free for even 5 years.

Your point that I labeled #2 would seem to me to assuage much of the contentions I've grown accustomed to seeing you make. This is why it took me so long to make any sense out of your position. Christian principles can be (and are) summed up as "against which there is no law." Goodness, integrity, honesty, intellect, hard work, social justice; this deserves to be reviled? Rather, it seems very much like what you have embraced.

1. This is a toughie: "respecting us enough to earn our own honor in His eyes." There's simply no easy way for me to say this. You say you read the Bible, and that's why you turned away from C. Ok. You're an intelligent guy w/ no comprehension issues. Why is it that i can constantly see glaring errors in your assessment of anything Biblical? Honest question here, I really don't know.

What I DO know, is that you missed everything the Bible says about us earning our own honor, in God's eyes! Would you like me to furnish book chapter and verse? I'm not sure how long that list might be, but it is not some one off obscure idea that can and should be dismissed. You missed a BIG chunk here. I can only speculate it's because you recoiled so from OT atrocities which is understandable enough; that's also why we are to become "rooted and grounded," as an important step of growth before we go on to strong meat. I can honestly assert that you would be shocked to learn the purpose and application of those OT stories you object to so strongly, but this is not the time for that.

I just see you (hypothetically) saying you'd knowingly side w/ satan and sure defeat, such is your intentional rejection of God. And I see this based on disinformation, so as a bit of that comes to the surface, how can I not address it? That would be inhuman of me.

 

[razeontherock]

thousands of years and he has yet to show his face nor his might!

Sorry for the cliche, but - citation? IOW, you are quite wrong about that. Experience; mine and countless others, not some book.

 

[mzungu]

Sorry for the cliche, but - citation? IOW, you are quite wrong about that. Experience; mine and countless others, not some book.

That reminds me of the LSD experiences of the late 60's YouTube - Jimi Hendrix: Are You Experienced?

 

[razeontherock]

I've been to the plant where his first big record was pressed. It had a label attached for the workers: "distortion intentional, do not correct." Did you know that the biggest element of his sound, was his guitar cord?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Nothing that causes a problem. In fact it lines up perfectly with what modern studies show about human nature, so it shows that people recorded this. Just as we would expect

Of course people recored the gospels. We just don't know who exactly, or where exactly, or when exactly. Which is why they don't line up on some very key aspects. But of course, you've studied the bible for yourself, as I have, so this isn't news to you.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

razeontherock has just carpet-bombed this thread

 

[razeontherock]

Of course people recored the gospels. We just don't know who exactly, or where exactly, or when exactly. Which is why they don't line up on some very key aspects.

It is their differences that give us a more complete picture.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

It is their differences that give us a more complete picture.

They are clearly contradictory, which does give us an accurate picture.

 

[razeontherock]

Well, the moral thing to do here is put up a sign post as a warning, that those who read the Bible but never seek to reconcile the apparent contradictions are doomed to fall away from Faith. While those who do their due diligence and listen to their conscience to resolve cognitive dissonance will come to know G-d, and remain steadfast.

Quote the accomplishment God has made!

 

[Tergle]

razeontherock has just carpet-bombed this thread

With too many of his pearls that when he collects them agains, they will be scratched and chipped to pieces from the usual suspects.