Does morality exist without God?

[razeontherock]

in the case of your God, both of those conditions happen to be true (your God isn’t present to your senses and you haven’t wholly perceived it in reality).

And I've noted that you are completely wrong, and need to speak for yourself, from your own experience. (Something you continue to avoid, btw) All else is pretense.

 

[razeontherock]

You made claims that I’m asking you to justify.

believers are special or privileged in some way that allows only them to sense their God.

It's called being born again. Do you know where your local Church is?

 

[sandwiches]

Sir, quit being obstinate and recognize the FACT that this is a loaded statement you wish to trap me with! I am NOT going down your road of false supposition here - these 6 words are patently blasphemous.

Do refrain. If you choose to understand another's POV, that requires listening, not projecting your false assumptions onto them.

Ah... the good ol' argumentum ad blasphēmia...

 

[selfinflikted]

It's called being born again. Do you know where your local Church is?

I was born again. I still did not sense god. Please explain.

 

[3sigma]

And I've noted that you are completely wrong, and need to speak for yourself, from your own experience. (Something you continue to avoid, btw) All else is pretense.

It’s pretence all right, Ray, but not on my part. Your claims are not supported by fact. There is no sound reason to believe that religious believers are special or privileged in some way that allows only them to ‘sense’ their God. There is no sound evidence or sound argument supporting the claim that such a faculty exists, unless you are talking about a sense of insecurity. I can see how that could cause people to believe there is a God watching over them, their prayers will be answered and they will never really die.

It's called being born again.

Prove it, Ray. Prove beyond reasonable doubt that you have some faculty allowing you to perceive your God that others don’t possess. Explain the sensory mechanism. Provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this God you think you are ‘sensing’ is even real.

By the way, until someone can provide sound evidence and sound arguments to show that God is even real, the question of whether it is required for morality to exist is moot. You may as well argue over the colour of the quidditch shed at Hogwart’s or the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin.

 

[razeontherock]

There is no sound reason to believe that religious believers are

Oh wait, you mean you're not a believer, and I am? Because that's all you're saying here. Pretty simple, really. Plainly visible in our respective icons.

 

[razeontherock]

I was born again. I still did not sense god. Please explain.

Forgive me if I confused you with somebody else, but I think we touched on this before, right? This just adds a bit of info for me. How can you reconcile your statement here with this:

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

Here you're saying you were born again, but didn't see the Kingdom? It seems one statement or the other has to be false, but I know basically nothing about what you went through. I'd be most curious to learn what makes you think you were born again; it's a rare opportunity to come across a testimony like yours, and I think there must be something significant to learn from it.

 

[Belk]

Forgive me if I confused you with somebody else, but I think we touched on this before, right? This just adds a bit of info for me. How can you reconcile your statement here with this:

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

Here you're saying you were born again, but didn't see the Kingdom? It seems one statement or the other has to be false, but I know basically nothing about what you went through. I'd be most curious to learn what makes you think you were born again; it's a rare opportunity to come across a testimony like yours, and I think there must be something significant to learn from it.

Unless I am reading the statement completely wrong it says that you can not see the kingdom of God without being born again. It does not say if you are born again you will see the kingdom of God. Only that being born again is a perquisite.

 

[3sigma]

Oh wait, you mean you're not a believer, and I am? Because that's all you're saying here.

No, Ray, that’s not all I’m saying and you know it, but choose to ignore it. I’m saying you are evading my requests, you haven’t provided a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support your nonsensical claims and I’m asking you continually to provide that. Can you do that or are you just going to continue this evasive behaviour?

 

[razeontherock]

The answer's right in front of your face, and you refuse it

 

[Tzaousios]

I’m saying you are evading my requests, you haven’t provided a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support your nonsensical claims and I’m asking you continually to provide that. Can you do that or are you just going to continue this evasive behaviour?

You trot out the rhetoric of "evasive behavior," "ignoring it," "single shred of evidence," and "nonsensical claims" because you have failed in your quest to cause some kind of abyss experience in Christians or to make them apostasize on the spot.

The absolute and only answer you will accept is apostasization and/or renouncing of belief in God. It is disengenuous and smug to act like you would listen to other answers. When is your little denigration game going to end?

 

[sandwiches]

You trot out the rhetoric of "evasive behavior," "ignoring it," "single shred of evidence," and "nonsensical claims" because you have failed in your quest to cause some kind of abyss experience in Christians or to make them apostasize on the spot.

The absolute and only answer you will accept is apostasization and/or renouncing of belief in God. It is disengenuous and smug to act like you would listen to other answers. When is your little denigration game going to end?

So, does this mean you have evidence of humans being able to communicate to God?

 

[razeontherock]

Every Christian does. It would appear you are not one, so then said evidence would not apply to you.

 

[sandwiches]

Every Christian does. It would appear you are not one, so then said evidence would not apply to you.

Why not?

 

[razeontherock]

YouTube - Billie Holiday God Bless The Child

 

[3sigma]

The absolute and only answer you will accept is apostasization and/or renouncing of belief in God. It is disengenuous and smug to act like you would listen to other answers. When is your little denigration game going to end?

I’m not asking Christians to renounce their beliefs. I’m just asking them to show that their beliefs are reasonable. I will certainly listen to reasonable answers. I will stop asking the questions when Christians stop evading them and provide reasonable answers.

Can you provide any sound evidence or sound arguments to show that Christians are special or privileged in some way that allows only them to sense or communicate with their God? If so then please do. Explain the sensory or communication mechanism. Provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this God you think you are sensing is real and that your communication with it is not simply your imagination.

I’m guessing that you are yet another Christian who will evade these questions or fail to provide reasonable answers.

 

[razeontherock]

Can you provide any sound evidence or sound arguments to show that Christians are special or privileged in some way that allows only them to sense or communicate with their God?

Sure. It's exactly like those who demand proof re: Jesus from non Christian sources. by definition, those who would corroborate the story are Christians. Likewise, those with the ability to perceive Him, are believers.

Why is this difficult to understand?

 

[Tzaousios]

I’m not asking Christians to renounce their beliefs. I’m just asking them to show that their beliefs are reasonable. I will certainly listen to reasonable answers.

For those who want to "discuss" Christianity with 3sigma, here is a translation of his rhetoric. Reasonable absolutely means rejecting any belief in God or a divine being. Single shred of evidence absolutely means it must be able to be recreated in a laboratory using test tubes.

I will stop asking the questions when Christians stop evading them and provide reasonable answers.

Yes, you stopped asking the "questions" and mysteriously disappeared for a while. I take it you again wanted to satiate your appetite for the denigration of Christians? Back to conduct more laboratory experiments?

Can you provide any sound evidence or sound arguments to show that Christians are special or privileged in some way that allows only them to sense or communicate with their God? If so then please do. Explain the sensory or communication mechanism. Provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this God you think you are sensing is real and that your communication with it is not simply your imagination.

Take 50 cc of substance "Communicating with God" and add 50 cc of substance "Christian privilege." Shake. Warm over Bunsen burner for ten minutes. Resulting substance is Special Privilege of Christians to Communicate with God.

I’m guessing that you are yet another Christian who will evade these questions or fail to provide reasonable answers.

See above directions. Repeat.

 

[razeontherock]

I’m guessing that you are yet another Christian who will evade these questions or fail to provide reasonable answers.

Funny word, that "reasonable." Something you can't understand, is not reasonable to you. Which in no way makes it unreasonable, nor any less true. And here we have it, that unless you are born again, you cannot even see the Kingdom of God; although it's still within your reach.

 

[chris4243]

Funny word, that "reasonable." Something you can't understand, is not reasonable to you. Which in no way makes it unreasonable, nor any less true. And here we have it, that unless you are born again, you cannot even see the Kingdom of God; although it's still within your reach.

So what you're saying is that the ability to see the Kingdom of God, is a purely spiritual thing and not something able to be deduced via reason from non-spiritual things?