When is it acceptable to force an abortion on a mother?

[kittycat7]

I'd say never.

 

[Zebra1552]

Mary had not yet married, but was likely of marital age. This would indicate she was likely around the stage of a na'arah, which is around 12 years old (in modern days though this is actually younger due to puberty starting earlier, at least in those countries where it is starting earlier).

Reference:
Title: The Disposal of Virgins
Author(s): J. Duncan M. Derrett
Source: Man, New Series, Vol. 9, No. 1 (Mar., 1974), pp. 23-30
Publisher(s): Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland
Stable URL: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

How do you know her age or when she hit puberty?

 

[wanderingone]

I'm not a psychologist or doctor, but I would assume somewhere younger than 13.

You would assume? But you're the one who suggested that it would be okay to force an abortion on someone who is "too young" So what age do you believe is too young to continue a pregnancy if the girl in question is not interested in having an abortion.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Well maybe God shouldn't force such a thing on such a young girl

Anyway I thought Mary was about 14. God would have used someone of a decent age if what you say is the case.

Do you mind me asking if you think it is ok impregnate a 12 year old then if she consents?

There would be two issues with this question. The first is the issue of putting the mother in harms way by making her carry a baby, but I dare say the lack of medicine was a bigger cause of harm than the age, at least back when they lacked medicine. As such, if it was ok to impregnate a 20 year old despite the risk, this isn't all that much riskier.

The second issue is one of consent in general, but the Bible does not condemn, it was legal back then, it was viewed as abuse (thus it was not mentally scarring), and the 12 year old would have been an adult (not an elder with political power, but an adult), so why would it be wrong from this sense? This is only based on the belief people shouldn't have sex till they are 18, but that is a new belief that has only risen in the last 100 years (it evolved from the belief a girl shouldn't have sex before marriage, combined with an increase in the average age of marriage).

Of course, if Mary was 12, 14, or 20, God is so many levels more powerful than her, thus she can't consent, so no matter how you look at it, it was rape. Each year, we celebrate rape.

 

[lawtonfogle]

God made a 12 year old girl with a 10 year old body give birth?

Where do you get that she had a 10 year old body?

Also, she would have likely been 13 when the birth actually happened, even based on the age of a na'arah.

If this is true I'm far more likely to think the virgin birth didn't happen.

If the whole 'impossible by medical science' didn't already give you this opinion, I'm surprised this did.

 

[lawtonfogle]

How do you know her age or when she hit puberty?

Which is why we are using the average of the time. Oh, she might have been two years older, but then she might have been 10 as well. Do you have some source that have evidence of her hitting puberty at 14?

 

[DaisyDay]

The question of the thread is 'when is it acceptable to force an abortion', and my answer, which I have now supported, excludes your examples of a coma and a vegetative state. If you disagree, you can attack my support rather than merely stating quite obviously that this is just my opinion as that does not support your position.

She did successfully counter your argument. You said that the woman would have made her wishes known, but that is not necessarily the case at all. For instance, she may have been ambivalent or she may have decided but put off telling people - she may not have been particularly close to anyone. Again, she may not have known she was pregnant and she may not have been pregnant before lapsing into a coma.

In either case, the chances are slim that she will recover to begin with.

You don't know that.

A small increase in the likelihood that another will live by causing another to die is a gamble, not a decision.

It may be an informed decision. And you don't know that the increase is actually small or huge - with eclampsia or with a pregnancy outside the womb, it is huge.

 

[KarateCowboy]

You know pregnancies are temporal and end themselves through birth. I have never heard of anyone saying "I really, really want to have a pregnancy". Who needs an artificial abortion when pregnancies end themselves naturally at nine months? It's generally much healthier to let nature run its course. So when people complain about an 'unwanted pregnancy' it's pretty obvious they are speaking euphemistically. What they're really saying is "unwanted child". But when you say that it exposes how heartless and unloving you really are, so they say "unwanted pregnancy" in order to assuage the convicted remains of their decayed consciences.

 

[selfinflikted]

You know pregnancies are temporal and end themselves through birth. I have never heard of anyone saying "I really, really want to have a pregnancy". Who needs an artificial abortion when pregnancies end themselves naturally at nine months? It's generally much healthier to let nature run its course. So when people complain about an 'unwanted pregnancy' it's pretty obvious they are speaking euphemistically. What they're really saying is "unwanted child". But when you say that it exposes how heartless and unloving you really are, so they say "unwanted pregnancy" in order to assuage the convicted remains of their decayed consciences.

Again, because having a living thing inside your belly mooching off you for nine months is a walk in the park.

Abortion also says nothing about how "loving" a person may or may not be.

 

[homeofmew]

When the Pregnancy threatens the Mothers Life.

 

[lawtonfogle]

When the Pregnancy threatens the Mothers Life.

What if she wants the child though? Remember, this is about forcing, not allowing.

 

[JadeTigress]

You know pregnancies are temporal and end themselves through birth. I have never heard of anyone saying "I really, really want to have a pregnancy". Who needs an artificial abortion when pregnancies end themselves naturally at nine months? It's generally much healthier to let nature run its course. So when people complain about an 'unwanted pregnancy' it's pretty obvious they are speaking euphemistically. What they're really saying is "unwanted child". But when you say that it exposes how heartless and unloving you really are, so they say "unwanted pregnancy" in order to assuage the convicted remains of their decayed consciences.

Actually, I've heard people say they want a pregnancy. My cousin is one. She loves kids, and she's doing it to have kids, but she loves the pregnancy part.

And for people such as myself, it is an unwanted pregnancy. I don't want to deal with it. Ever. Yeah, I could just give the kid up for adoption (which I would), but I'd still have to deal with 9 months of torture before hand, plus any lasting damage from the birth itself. I won't do it. So for people like me, both the pregnancy and the child are unwanted. And I'll say "unwanted child" all day long. It doesn't hurt my conscience any.

 

[JadeTigress]

What if she wants the child though? Remember, this is about forcing, not allowing.

Then you say, "Too bad. We're aborting the child. You're welcome to try again later."

 

[Zebra1552]

She did successfully counter your argument.

Mere disagreement is not a counter to any argument unless it is the affirmative argument and said argument doesn't give any arguments. In this case, I am not the affirmative side.

You said that the woman would have made her wishes known, but that is not necessarily the case at all.

I said the woman would have made her wishes known if the coma started near the time of birth. You can't hide a 6 month pregnancy very well. If not...

For instance, she may have been ambivalent or she may have decided but put off telling people - she may not have been particularly close to anyone.

...then who gets the right to decide? A doctor? Why should they force a procedure on her having no knowledge of her, no family to contact, and no friends to ask?

Again, she may not have known she was pregnant and she may not have been pregnant before lapsing into a coma.

In which case she would have been in said coma for at least several months. I accounted for this variable.

You don't know that.

You don't know that you'll live to see tomorrow, but I'll bet you've made plans for what you'll do. Not knowing something with 100% certainty is a cop out. Do you have actual data that shows it is common for someone who has been in a coma for several months to come to with no complications whatsoever? Then present it.

It may be an informed decision. And you don't know that the increase is actually small or huge - with eclampsia or with a pregnancy outside the womb, it is huge.

If it's an informed decision, then it isn't forced and therefore excluded in this discussion: The woman has made her choice. Why should you disregard her wishes? I distinctly remember an ER episode where they treated a boy who had lost a lot of blood and needed a transfusion, but didn't want one for religious reasons. They gave him one anyway, and later found him in a bathtub with his stitches ripped out. You don't give someone a procedure they don't want just because you think it's the right one.

 

[Zebra1552]

Which is why we are using the average of the time. Oh, she might have been two years older, but then she might have been 10 as well. Do you have some source that have evidence of her hitting puberty at 14?

Do you have evidence that she was younger or older? If not, then claiming to know the age is utterly pointless.

 

[hollyda]

Never*. If the woman wants to have the baby, even knowing she would die, it's her choice.

*In the case of rape of minors, we get into shadier territory. If I found out my 7 year old child was raped and carrying a baby, I'd first be on a warpath to whoever raped my child, but also terrified of how my small child could carry a baby to term without putting herself at serious risk. In this case, I would be guardian and would likely make the decision to have my child's pregnancy aborted. I say likely, because I'm looking at this as a 26-year old woman with no children who will hopefully never be in this position (I really, really hope), but objectively, this is the choice I believe I'd make.

According to this website, the youngest recorded pregnancy occurred when the child was five years old.

If I were the parent of a child (age 13-17) who had been raped and became pregnant, I'd have a very serious conversation with her to let her know her options, that I'd support her decision whatever way I could (including helping her care for the child or place it for adoption), see what she wanted, what she felt, and we'd proceed from there.

Excepting those extreme hurts-your-heart-think-about-it cases, forcing a woman into an abortion is, in my opinion, unethical.

 

[lux et lex]

Let's see. If I got pregnant say, today, I likely wouldn't find out about it for another 5 weeks or so. I'm on several medications which are dangerous for pregnancy and cause damage to a fetus. So that's 5 or so weeks that this fetus is exposed to these drugs...And then you want me to stop taking them so I don't do any more harm to the fetus for another 7.75 months? Or am I allowed to stay on them as they help me with my day to day life?

 

[KarateCowboy]

Some day after we've aborted all the Republican babies and we become as progressive as China then it will be OK all the time.

 

[hollyda]

Some day after we've aborted all the Republican babies and we become as progressive as China then it will be OK all the time.

Babies come with political affiliations now?

Someone must have switched me at birth.

 

[solarwave]

There would be two issues with this question. The first is the issue of putting the mother in harms way by making her carry a baby, but I dare say the lack of medicine was a bigger cause of harm than the age, at least back when they lacked medicine. As such, if it was ok to impregnate a 20 year old despite the risk, this isn't all that much riskier.

So you don't think being 12 or 20 makes much difference to how likely a pregancy is harm the 12 year old?

The second issue is one of consent in general, but the Bible does not condemn, it was legal back then, it was viewed as abuse (thus it was not mentally scarring), and the 12 year old would have been an adult (not an elder with political power, but an adult), so why would it be wrong from this sense? This is only based on the belief people shouldn't have sex till they are 18, but that is a new belief that has only risen in the last 100 years (it evolved from the belief a girl shouldn't have sex before marriage, combined with an increase in the average age of marriage).

I assumed the reason the age of consent was 16 (UK) was because if you go much younger than that the child can't fully choose whether sex is a good idea or not (pregnacy also) and because they are more likely to be forced to do something by someone older. I assumed it was based on some sort of research. If it is based just on what the Bible says then it is a bad law. If this is the case then I would say the law should have a lower age and the age at which you can force an abortion should be lower.

So an abortion should be forced on someone who is too young to be able to fully decide what is best.

Of course, if Mary was 12, 14, or 20, God is so many levels more powerful than her, thus she can't consent, so no matter how you look at it, it was rape. Each year, we celebrate rape.

The older she is the more conscious and mature the trust she can have in God though. The younger she is the more her faith is based on her parents faith.

Where do you get that she had a 10 year old body?

It would be to pointless for me to explain and wouldn't add anything. Ignore what I said.

Also, she would have likely been 13 when the birth actually happened, even based on the age of a na'arah.

I originally said below 13, so Mary would have been ok under my rough guess of an age.

If the whole 'impossible by medical science' didn't already give you this opinion, I'm surprised this did.

God can cause it to happen. If she is so young that it would cause unnecessary mental and physical problems then it is hard to see how it could be moral. I guess it could be said that God knew it wouldn't.