A Few MAJOR Pretrib Contradictions

[chalkstc]

Lizzy,

Jesus was saying the words of Matthew 24 in roughly 27AD, speaking of an abomination of desolation as spoken of in Daniel and said WHEN YOU SEE it come to pass, then..." and YOU still sit there and insist Jesus was referring to Epiphanes which was nearly 200 years BEFORE Christ!

No, I did not say that at all..............

I said when Dan spoke about it, Antiochus was still future to himself, but past tense when Jesus spoke Mat 24:15. There is no contest, that there was an AOD in the 2nd Century BC. It is documented history.

So seeing there was already and AOD in the past for the Apostle's ears, they are not told to look at that one but the one DAN 12 says happens in the last 1260 + 30 days at the end of the age, and not in AD 70.

It is called the law of "double" referrence. Where more than one theme is repeated in history. :Type, and anti-type. And prophecy is simply "history" spoken in advance.

if you don't understand my point, then we must let this go and disagree............period.

Bro Frankie

 

[LovedofHim]

Lizzy,



No, I did not say that at all..............

I said when Dan spoke about it, Antiochus was still future to himself, but past tense when Jesus spoke Mat 24:15. There is no contest, that there was an AOD in the 2nd Century BC. It is documented history.

So seeing there was already and AOD in the past for the Apostle's ears, they are not told to look at that one but the one DAN 12 says happens in the last 1260 + 30 days at the end of the age, and not in AD 70.

Yes, Epiphanes actions have no place in the discussion of the abomination of desolation that Jesus was referring to.

No, the abomination of desolation does not happen at the end of the age.

LOOK:


Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

The abomination of desolation followed by the great tribulation that lasts until the time of the end did NOT happen at "the end of the age".

Do you or do you not see that?

Daniel 12's 1290 days is referring to Daniel 11:31, which was future from Jesus' perspective and past by 1900 years from our perspective.

Daniel 12: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

[Manasseh_]

THAT, right THERE! That is incorrect.

There is your error. Do you see what you are saying?

Jesus was saying the words of Matthew 24 in roughly 27AD, speaking of an abomination of desolation as spoken of in Daniel and said WHEN YOU SEE it come to pass, then..." and YOU still sit there and insist Jesus was referring to Epiphanes which was nearly 200 years BEFORE Christ!

1. 166bc (roughly) = Epiphanes
2. 27 AD (Jesus spoke the PROPHECY, referencing Daniel)

You are gravely mistaken to believe that Jesus was referring to Epiphanes in Daniel 11:31. Jesus was speaking of a FUTURE abomination of desolation, not a past abomination of desolation from HIS perspective in about 27AD.

Christ didn't tell his apostles when you "see it" come to pass, he told
them when all of his prophecy to them would come to pass and only
the end time generation would actually see all of it happen.


Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Christ's apostles did not see :

a great tribulation which couldn't be compared to any other history of men since history is still being written to this day.......Mat 24:21 such a bad time it can't be compare and such a bad time it will never happen again afterward.

they did not see an abomination of desolation placed in the temple during their time because Titus and his armies completely destroyed the temple during their generation.

They did not fully see this gospel of the kingdom published to all nations during their lifetime Mat 24:14

They did not see a time so terrible that mankind would annihilate itself if God didn't intervene Mat 24:22, they had no such technology in those days, but we do today, not only weapons of mass destruction but weapons of total destruction if God didn't stop it.

and most obviously the apostles did not see Christ return in power and glory to set up his kingdom on earth.

Christ was speaking of a future abomination of Desolation, Antiochus Ephiphanes and a few others were examples given in scripture of the abomination of desolation...........Christ was warning about the very end time abomination of desolation which would be the beginning of the great tribulation before his return.

Paul said basically the things even the apostles read about in the OT, things prophets foretold, things that happened to men in general, things that happened to Israel in the past were all there for examples also so that believers would have better understanding.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

So Christ was giving an example of an abomination of desolation by quoting to them Daniel, but he was also foretelling this example would happen again at the very end, but in a much worse intensity.

 

[LovedofHim]

Christ didn't tell his apostles when you "see it" come to pass, he told
them when all of his prophecy to them would come to pass and only
the end time generation would actually see all of it happen.

NO, indeed.

The abomination of desolation that Jesus referred to in Matt 24 is found in Daniel 11:31. Daniel 11:31 ACTUALLY says that it does not occur at the time of the end but well before it.


Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

[chalkstc]

Lizzy,

NO, indeed.

The abomination of desolation that Jesus referred to in Matt 24 is found in Daniel 11:31. Daniel 11:31 ACTUALLY says that it does not occur at the time of the end but well before it.


Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Both Manesseh and myself have explained your dating error and you still don't give any creedence that you just might be wrong.

Everything Dan spoke from the last of ch 11, and thru the 12th chap is about the time of the end, including the last 1290 days.

Time of trouble like none else. 70 AD was not even as bad as the holocost.
Mike stands up. When? Rev 12 says in the last 1260 days.
The dead are raised. When? The gathering of MAT 24 and a host of other texts.
Dan is told to stand in his lot at the end. When?

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

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For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

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Then cometh the end, ​

KJV​

I have been into eschatology for the past 30 years or so and can tell you that there is still a lot I do not know 100%. And I have no ego to grind when one shows me an error I might have spoken. Why? Because the truth is more important than my preconceived view. So what do I do? Change to align myself with the truth.​

But because you believe you have the final word on this theme, you'll never change imo.​

There is no more to say....................we just disagree....period!​

Frankie​

PS I also told you that the reason your AOD timing was errant is because the Demise of the Temple was local in scope and did not even affect the seven churches in Asia Minor in Rev 2 and 3. But the trouble Jesus and Dan refer to will be global in scope and the AOD just introduces this last 1260 days of the end of the age. The aspostasy and the MOS is revealed who the Lord detroys with the brightness of His Coming. He even plants the tabernacle of his palise in the pleasant land between the seas.

 

[LovedofHim]

Lizzy,



Everything Dan spoke from the last of ch 11, and thru the 12th chap is about the time of the end, including the last 1290 days.

Incorrect. Daniel 11-12 is where an angel is describing a 3500 year time period from the Medes to the GWT judgment.

In Daniel 12, the angel mentions:

1. time, times, half a time which is the 3500 years of "these wonders"

2. The 1290 days refers to the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31. It is past.

3. The 1335 days refers to the time of wrath (indignation) during which the antichrist is around after Michael has cast the devil down to the earth and the elect have been gathered (delivered).

The "time of trouble" when Michael stands up is when the Northern armies invade Israel at the end of the great tribulation that has gone on since the desolation of Israel. It happens at the time of the end, prior to the "time of wrath" (indignation) on the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Continuing from the posts I started here (posts 285 and 286 on this thread): http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-29/#post56959718





Well first we have prophecies in Daniel 8 and 11 which seem to fit Epiphanes perfectly. He even set up an abomination that maketh desolate as Daniel prophesies would happen in Daniel 11:31. However, Messiah had not even been born yet when Epiphanes did the things he did. Daniel 9:27 describes the sacrifice ceasing and the destruction of the city and sanctuary after Messiah is cut off. Jesus also mentions the abomination of desolation as a future event from the point in time He was speaking. This presents a couple of problems. Jesus is quoting Daniel, and He is prophesying a future event. He cites Daniel’s prophecy which indicates that what Daniel saw must also be a future event. You don’t prophesy about a past event; that is… unless it’s going to happen again.

Was the Roman invasion the abomination of desolation Jesus was speaking about? Again, many believe it was and tie it in with Daniel 9:26-27. Again, many of the things described by Jesus in the gospel of Luke took place when Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans. Many were killed. Many were taken into captivity. The city was in essence destroyed.

Now let’s look at what Jesus says closely. The passage is Matthew chapter 24. I want to focus on this passage in this post. Later I will discuss the seeming discrepancy between what Matthew and Mark record and what we read in Luke.

There are a couple of clues here that simply cannot be ignored. First, Jesus proclaims His return. That is the end of all these things. Do not forget that the disciples asked, “…when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Mat 24:3)

When will all these things be (one stone not being left upon another), and when will the end (His return) come? Has it happened? Did He come in the clouds? Did we all miss it? No. He has not returned. Yet He said immediately…pause. Immediately after what?

Now back up a few verses. Verse 14 is “amen”. Why do I say that? Jesus makes an ending statement there. The end will come when? When the gospel is preached to the whole world. Did this happen during the time of the apostles? This is a multidimensional statement. What do I mean by that? This statement encompasses not only physical space, but also time. The gospel was to be preached not only to the people of the disciples’ time but to the generations that had yet to be born.

Now the completion of the preaching of the gospel in both physical space and down through the generations of time brings about the end. Notice the preaching of the gospel to the whole world is not the end. But the end will come once the gospel has been preached to all nations. What then happens? What does Jesus say next?

When the gospel has been preached unto all nations, then the end shall come. And the disciples asked Him, when will all of this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

First He tells them all the things which must happen leading to the end (a general synopsis of things that will take place over a long time). Now we have arrived at the end. The gospel has been preached. And what happens next?

Now it’s time to answer the next part of the question, what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Now that the gospel has been preached and we are at the end (then shall the end come; not then shall be the end; but then shall the end come), when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place. What happens then?

Instructions are given and then we read, “For [when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place] then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time…” (so many people miss this one word, time, not place, time; Jesus already gave the place when He told us the abomination of desolation would be standing in the holy place) (Mat 24:21). What time is He referring to? The time when the abomination of desolation is seen standing in the holy place which is after the gospel has been preached to the whole world (both in space or location and in time down through the generations)

“For the promise [salvation through Christ] is unto you [those present at that point in time with Peter], and to your children [descendants down through time], and to all that are afar off [all who are afar off spatially (other locations, nations or countries) and down through time (their children; descendants)], even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Act 2:39)

And what happens as a result of this time of great tribulation? Jesus cuts it short. Why? Because if He did not, no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22). Did the invasion of 70 CE threaten all flesh with extermination? But for the sake of the elect, He will cut those days short so that all flesh will not perish from the earth. And then, after the gospel has been preached to all nations, and during the time of great tribulation if any man comes to you and says Christ is here or there, do not believe him. Why? Because at this time false prophets will begin working miracles and show great signs and wonders so much so that if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived by them. What does Revelation say will happen? “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet [just a point of interest; but note there are three entities here]. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” (Rev 16:13-14)

They are the spirits of deception. If they bid you to go here into the desert or else where saying Christ is there, do not go. Why? Because they are not The Christ. For when The Christ returns it will be like when lightening comes out of the east and shines all the way over to the west, as quick as lightening, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Now, immediately after the tribulation of those days (what tribulation? The tribulation that follows the completion of the gospel being preached; the tribulation that begins when the abomination of desolation is seen standing where it should not; the tribulation that is so bad it threatens the world with extinction; immediately after that tribulation that threatens the world with extinction) the sun will not shine, the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then (after the signs in the sun, moon and stars) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then the tribes of the earth will mourn for [at that time] they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.

Yes Jesus spoke about a lot of things covering a lot of time. But the great distress or great tribulation He was talking about was not the invasion of Jerusalem or the completion of the Diaspora. All of these things happened so that all of God’s word might be fulfilled. But the end was not yet. The time of great tribulation Jesus prophesied about was to be a specific period of time involving the abomination of desolation which would immediately precede His second coming. Once you see this, you know that the generation on the earth at that time will not pass until all is fulfilled unto the coming of The Lord.

“So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” (Mat 24:33-34)

2000 years simply does not cut it. The generation that sees these things come to pass cannot die off before all of these things are fulfilled (the fulfillment of it all is the second coming which has not happened yet). So there has to be a point that marks the beginning of the things Jesus is talking about. And I think we can all agree that if the end of these things is His second coming (this is the question He is answering for the disciples after all), then the beginning of the things which signal the generation that will see His return cannot have been the invasion of Jerusalem in 70 CE since no one is left alive from that generation to see it all fulfilled, and Jesus cannot lie.

Therefore the abomination of desolation He was prophesying about could not have been the destruction of Jerusalem at that time because when the abomination of desolation He was speaking about is seen, then will be the time of great tribulation unlike any in the history of the world unto that time immediately after which He will return (while someone in that generation that sees these things still lives to see them all fulfilled in His second coming).

I am going to continue with these posts. I still want to discuss what some see as a discrepancy between what we read in Luke, and what is seen in Matthew and Mark. I also want to get into exactly what the abomination of desolation is we should be looking for.

To be continued…

Jump to next post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-32/#post56984209

 

[chalkstc]

Lizzy,

time, times, half a time which is the 3500 years of "these wonders"

Where did you get that errant time calculation?
First off, the t, t's + 1/2 t is listed along with the 1260 and 42 months in the Rev.

But to give you a more accurrate duration, let me quote Dan again....................

Dan 4:15​

Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:​

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Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.​

KJV


Dan 4:23​

And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;​

KJV


Dan 4:25​

That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.​

KJV


Dan 4:32​

And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.​

KJV


Dan 4:33​

The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.​

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And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:​

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KJV

Now if we use your calculation, we will come up with a whole bunch of years hundreds of years longer than any lives.

So let me correct you........(LOL!)

A "TIME" = one year
"TIMES" = two years
1/2 "TIME" = 6 months or 1/2 year
Total = 3 1/2 years or 1260 days or 42 months.

This is the total length of the GT.

Frankie

 

[chalkstc]

kC,

Your doing a great job on the timing of the AOD. I've been trying to convince two sisters here for about 20 posts but to no avail. Maybe a different voice can crack the ice.......brrrr!

Frankie

 

[POSTIOS]

Do you guys think that 70 AD presumed desecration could have been a type for the end times AOD caused by the son of perdition.

 

[son_flower]

Do you guys think that 70 AD presumed desecration could have been a type for the end times AOD caused by the son of perdition.

Actually no I don't I believe Jesus was the Messiah spoken of in Daniel 9 and fulfilled the determined seventy weeks for the Jews.
They were given 70 weeks, the sacrifices ceased, the temple destroyed and made desolate until the end of time.

 

[chalkstc]

SF,

Actually no I don't I believe Jesus was the Messiah spoken of in Daniel 9 and fulfilled the determined seventy weeks for the Jews.
They were given 70 weeks, the sacrifices ceased, the temple destroyed and made desolate until the end of time.

__________________

Nada!

 

[son_flower]

SF,

__________________

Nada!

What do you mean by that? We are in the new covenant Frankie, there is no more sacrificial animals nor Temple other than us.
Do you not believe Jesus was the promised Messiah that put an end to sins and made reconciliation?

 

[chalkstc]

SF,

Do you not believe Jesus was the promised Messiah that put an end to sins and made reconciliation?

__________________

Of course, but your previous statement was .........................

I don't I believe Jesus was the Messiah spoken of in Daniel 9

Frankie

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Do you guys think that 70 AD presumed desecration could have been a type for the end times AOD caused by the son of perdition.

The desolation of Jerusalem in 70 CE was so that all things written might be fulfilled. It was not the abomination of desolation. If you understand a bit of history as well as prophecy, then I don’t think it’s too hard to identify what the abomination of desolation is that Christ was prophesying about.

 

[chalkstc]

Amen KC,

The desolation of Jerusalem in 70 CE was so that all things written might be fulfilled. It was not the abomination of desolation. If you understand a bit of history as well as prophecy, then I don’t think it’s too hard to identify what the abomination of desolation is that Christ was prophesying about.

I think the two sisters I mentioned are not just historists, but maybe partial preterists. That would make sense for all the flac I've debated with them about.

Frankie

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Continuing from post 308 found here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-31/#post56974118



Now the next obvious question we need to address is the supposed discrepancy between Luke’s account and the accounts we read in Matthew and Mark concerning the destruction of the temple, the invasion of Jerusalem and the abomination of desolation. After all, Luke’s account clearly refers to the invasion of Jerusalem. Jesus is speaking of many of the same things that we read about in Matthew and Mark. So let’s carefully consider these seemingly disparate accounts which lead many to believe that the abomination of desolation and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are one and the same event.

The first place to start is to consider the audiences in each account. Let’s start with Matthew.

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Mat 24:1-3)

“And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?” (Mark 13:1-4)

In the accounts given in Matthew and Mark we see that Jesus left the temple, and the disciples approached Him privately. This was a conversation between Christ and His disciples. They were seeking clarification.

Now let’s consider the account given in Luke. Who was His audience in Luke?

“And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,” (Luke 20:1)

“And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.” (Luke 20:19)

“Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,” (Luke 20:45)

Now as we enter chapter 21, there has been no change in venue or audience. Jesus is still teaching in the temple to all the people. Now Jesus tells them that the days will come when there shall not be left one stone upon another. Then they proceed to ask when will all of these things be (when will one stone not be left upon another), and what will be the sign that these things (the destruction of the temple) will come to pass?

“As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?” (Luke 21:6-7)

Now Jesus goes on to describe how false Christs will arise, and they will hear of wars and commotions. But He tells them that the end is not yet. Then He describes that nation will rise against nation, and there will be famine, pestilence and earthquakes in diverse places. And there will be fearful and great signs from heaven.

And then in verse 12 He says, “But before all these…”

Now Jesus is about to answer their actual question, when will the temple be destroyed? Clearly if the things that follow happen before all of these things He just told them about, then the things He just told them about must come after the things He is about to tell them.

Now Jesus tells them about the persecution they will face for His name’s sake. But this persecution will be an opportunity to testify and will itself be a testimony. He tells them that they will be hated by all men for His name’s sake. He lets them know that they will be betrayed by family and friends. He goes on to answer their question in verse 20. He tells them, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

When you see the armies surround Jerusalem, then know that the desolation and destruction I told you about is near (the destruction of the temple where one stone will not be left upon another). He goes on to warn that those in Judea at that time should flee when they see these armies. He also tells them that this happens so that all things that have been written will be fulfilled in verse 22.

We then arrive at verse 24, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

We then read in verses 25-27, “And [when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled or are at an end] there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Jesus just skipped to the end of the story. Jesus goes on to say in verse 28, “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

What things are being referred to that indicate that our redemption draws close (meaning our redemption in the resurrection and change that accompany His second coming)? Is it the destruction of Jerusalem? Let us once again consider what He says next.

“And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:29-32)

Once again, Jesus says that the generation that sees these things come to pass will not pass away or die off before all is fulfilled unto the coming of The Lord in power and glory that He just told them about. Again, Jesus cannot lie. Someone that sees these things come to pass has to be left alive unto His second coming. Yet no one from that generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem is left alive to witness His second coming. Therefore, that cannot be the event He is referring to.

So what is He referring to? He is referring to the things that transpire when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled (or is at its end). When the times of the gentiles is at its end, from that point, those who witness the events that follow (which are fulfilled at the close of this age; the age which closes with the rise of the prophesied man of sin), someone will be left from that generation who will witness His second coming.

Now to confirm that He was teaching to all the people in the temple and not privately to His disciples, we read in verse 37, “And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.”

Now where do we find Him in Matthew and Mark’s accounts?

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Mat 24:1-3)

“And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?” (Mark 13:1-4)

So Luke is providing one account where Jesus taught in the temple to all the people. Matthew and Mark provide us an account of what He told His disciples privately. Why? Because they sought clarification. However, they expanded the question. They did not merely want to know when the temple would be destroyed (since He had answered this already). They wanted to know, “when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

To answer their question, Jesus focused more on what must happen immediately preceding His return. He tells them about the abomination of desolation and the time of great tribulation that is unlike anything in human history that happens when the abomination of desolation is seen standing in the holy place.

It is no different than the President of the US giving a public speech about an issue. He might then go to a private meeting with his advisors to discuss the issue in greater detail than he did with the public. It would be about the same subject. They would probably discuss many of the same talking points he went over in his public speech. But ultimately they would learn details that were probably left out of the public speech.

Continued…

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Continuing…



Another thing that separates the two conversations is the fact that while speaking to all the people, Christ focuses in on details specific to the time of the Roman invasion of Jerusalem. For example He describes how they will fall by the sword and be led away captive into all nations (the time of the Diaspora). Again, Christ makes it clear that these things happen so that the word of God might be fulfilled (Luke 21:22).

“For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Luk 21:22)



What things?



“For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.” (Hos 3:4-5)

“Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days [days according to God; see 2 Pet 3:8] will he revive us: in the third day [Millennium] he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.” (Hos 6:1-2)

“And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:” [when Titus invaded Jerusalem] (Deu 28:64-66)

“Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations [Diaspora], like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.” (Amos 9:8-9)

“And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars. In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.” (Ez 6:1-8)

“And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery [northern kingdom of Israel] I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah [southern kingdom] feared not, but went and played the harlot also.” (Jer 3:8)

“Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.” (2Ki 17:18)

“Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.” [prophecy of the reuniting of the whole house of Israel into one kingdom under one King] (Eze 37:19)

“And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.” (Zec 10:6-10)

The Diaspora happened in stages beginning with the Assyrian invasion of Northern Israel and what is referred to today as the “lost ten tribes” of Israel being taken into captivity; the House of Israel that God divorced (stick of Ephraim). It continued with the Babylonian invasion of the kingdom of Judah (southern kingdom) which is the point we find both Ezekiel and Daniel at. The Romans essentially completed the job. As prophesied, Israel was scattered among the nations. Jesus told them that the coming invasion of Jerusalem was so that all things written might be fulfilled. Prophecies such as Hosea’s prophecy about their restoration could not be fulfilled until after they had been scattered (which itself was part of the prophecies that had to be fulfilled). This Diaspora was prophesied to come to an end, and eventually the whole house of Israel would be restored after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. The times of the gentiles culminate with the arrival of the man of sin and the abomination of desolation. This will bring about the end of the time of the gentiles, the beginning of the full restoration of the whole house of Israel (rejoining of the stick of Ephraim with the stick of Judah) and the deliverance of God’s church and their gathering to Him to reign with Him.

To get back to the subject of this post however, when Jesus speaks to His disciples privately, He does not mention anything about His people being led away captive into all nations when He speaks about the abomination of desolation. That is because the abomination of desolation happens after they begin to return from captivity at the end of the time of the gentiles (after 2 days according to Hosea). It is a specific event associated with the end of this age that heralds the imminent return of Christ at that time.

Now we arrive at the next question. If the abomination of desolation was not the invasion of Jerusalem in 70 CE, then what exactly is the abomination of desolation? That is the next question I hope to address in the next post.

To be continued…

Visit http://www.christianforums.com/t7545015/#post57012701http://www.christianforums.com/t7545015/#post57012708 for the final post concerning the abomination of desolation.

 

[Kristen.NewCreation]

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[Manasseh_]

Do you guys think that 70 AD presumed desecration could have been a type for the end times AOD caused by the son of perdition.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Both Daniel and Christ are referring to the temple being desecrated, something unholy coming into the temple. The holy place which the apostles understood to be the holy of holies, that's what the inner chamber was called where the High Priest was the only one allowed and would enter once a year (Day of Atonement) to make sacrifice for all the people, symbolic of Christ our high priest who was the only one worthy to make sacrifice for all the people, Christ is the only atonement for sins.

Now we compare this to Paul's description of the man of sin

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

First there is a "falling away" an apostasy in the church, an apostasy where many members of the body of Christ will abandon their faith , abandon faith in Christ and in doing so will fall away back into sin
which is the catylst that allows the man of sin to then be revealed.

Now the man of sin appears and he not only enters the "holy place" of the temple as the high priest would, but he goes to the most extreme and claims he is God himself sitting in the holy place on his throne, that's the name for the "heaven" where God is in the greek............Theos Thronos......or the 3rd heaven spoken of in scripture.

In 70 AD there was neither event or similar event in order for it to be a "type or shadow" of the abomination of desolation, first because the body of Christ was in it's infancy, only beginning not having large numbers of saints who abandoned their faith in Christ and there was no temple left at all in 70 AD because Titus and his armies had completely destroyed the temple at that time, leaving no "holy place" to stand in.

All of us know all too well the 2nd commandment, NO IDOL WORSHIP, because God says he is a jealous God, elsewhere in scripture he teaches that he will not SHARE his GLORY with anyone (Isa 42:8 ) there is only one true God worthy of worship Father and Son.

.....and this is exactly what the man of sin does, going into the "holy place" symbolic of the 3rd heaven, declaring that he is God, seeking to be worshiped as God, but an IDOL not worthy of worship........a wicked man who deceives in order to destroy (abomination of desolation) and who is obviously destroyed himself at Christ's second coming.