"Zionism Has Nothing to do With Judaism"

[Paxton25]

An Interview With Dr. Hajo Meyer

By DAVID ZLUTNICK

''Zionism and Judaism are contrary to each other. Because Judaism is universal and humane, and Zionism is exactly the opposite. It is very narrow, very nationalistic, racist, colonialist, and all this. There is no ''National Judaism.'' There is Zionism and there is Judaism, and they are completely different.''

David Zlutnick: "Zionism Has Nothing to do With Judaism"

 

[laconicstudent]

An Interview With Dr. Hajo Meyer

By DAVID ZLUTNICK

''Zionism and Judaism are contrary to each other. Because Judaism is universal and humane, and Zionism is exactly the opposite. It is very narrow, very nationalistic, racist, colonialist, and all this. There is no ''National Judaism.'' There is Zionism and there is Judaism, and they are completely different.''

David Zlutnick: "Zionism Has Nothing to do With Judaism"

I rather agree.

 

[E.C.]

Finally somebody speaks the truth in GT!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Zionism Has Nothing to do With Judaism"

Subscribing.
There is also this interesting thread on how Judaism views Zionism

http://www.christianforums.com/t1988173/
Jewish opinions on Christian Zionism?

quote OP: With coverage of the Gaza pullout all over the news, I've been thinking about certain brands of Christians who are zionists. As you all know, many Christians offer financial and political support to Israel. But as you also know, orthodox Christian theology states that Jews will be condemned apart from becoming Christians. And most of the Christian zionists also believe that the regathering of Jews to Palestine is essential in order for the end times to begin (this is where zionists differ from Christian orthodoxy). So I'm just curious as to how Jews regard Christian zionism.

In the interest of full disclosure, let me mention that I am theologically not a zionist, in that I do not believe God gives Jews (or any other ethnic group) a divine right to the land of Palestine. Politically, I also don't think it's a good idea to support Israel. But I don't think it's morally wrong to support Israel on a political basis, so long as the Christian religion is not used to justify such support.

Well, I hope I can get some Jewish opinions on this. Thank you.

 

[RABBIT-HUNTER]

However, the Israeli leadership, in no way shuns, the naive Christian Zionist's money, and political clout, towards there goals, and getting American money, from the Zionist't that lurk, in the US government. Alex.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

However, the Israeli leadership, in no way shuns, the naive Christian Zionist's money, and political clout, towards there goals, and getting American money, from the Zionist't that lurk, in the US government. Alex.

Any idea of how many Zionists are in the US governement?

 

[Lovely Lane]

''Zionism and Judaism" both are abomination to God. Zionism promotes segregation and prejudice while Judaism denies Christ.
The ancient Israelite have been dispersed since the destruction of Temple #2 and have not magically reappeared since 1948. Although the Zionist have manipulated the world powers of the '40's (UK, USA & UN), to purge the inhabitants of the land of Palestine to move in Jews from around the world. Strange of how a newly created UN focused so much attention and controversy of the creation of a Zionist state and that Jews from all over the globe have such a hard time living in a host country.

Governments have been influenced by Jewish wealth for centuries, and is the root cause for the continued conflict in today's Land of Canaan. And the cause for possible war with Iran to have the USA do the heavy-lifting for the Zionist.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Governments have been influenced by Jewish wealth for centuries,

I don't want to rush to Godwin's Law, but frankly this line of thinking is precisely the sort of rhetoric that became the foundational doctrines of the Third Reich concerning the "Judenfrage".

Zionism is not Judaism. Zionism is not the Jewish people. Zionism is a secular, nationalist philosophy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lovely Lane]

I don't want to rush to Godwin's Law, but frankly this line of thinking is precisely the sort of rhetoric that became the foundational doctrines of the Third Reich concerning the "Judenfrage".

Zionism is not Judaism. Zionism is not the Jewish people. Zionism is a secular, nationalist philosophy.

-CryptoLutheran

I know what Zionist are and separated that from Judaism in my post.
Why not use someone other than Hitler? (someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler and the Nazis)Maybe go a little further back to Claudius, Hardrian or General Julius Severus. Would judenfrage apply there, if so, what term would you use to describe it? Another German word I suppose..."lebensraum","balkanization", many terms (German words used as terms) can be found in Mein Kampf. Of which I do not borrow material from for conversation. Perhaps using Koine Greek words as terms of expression and definition of a issue would be appropriate, at least it would be refreshing than drudging up Hitler again and again.

 

[Steve Petersen]

For the past 2000 years Jews have been praying three times daily for the restoration of Jerusalem and the Temple and that they be permitted to return to the land.

Hard to see how you can separate the two.

 

[ViaCrucis]

For the past 2000 years Jews have been praying three times daily for the restoration of Jerusalem and the Temple and that they be permitted to return to the land.

Hard to see how you can separate the two.

Because as I understand it, the general, rather orthodox, position of historic Judaism has been that these things cannot happen until Messiah comes. Zionism was rather emphatically opposed to it in its formative period, not by Gentiles of other religions, but by religious, practicing Jews. The Diaspora would persist until God's own appointed time, when Messiah would reestablish the people in the Land. Even today many religious Jews are opposed to the philosophy of Zionism and the modern Zionist state on the basis of religious grounds, and because the result of the Zionist movement has been intense violence between Jews, Muslims, and Christians; between Jewish immigrants and the native Palestinian population.

But, as Zionism was a secular, nationalist ideology--not a religious one initially--it became influential in secular Jewish circles. Religious Zionism did arise eventually, but its genesis was a secular, nationalist view. Principally due to the ugly, anti-semtic, and violent treatment of the Jewish people in their nations of residence where they were usually treated somewhere between second rate citizens to something less than diseased rodents.

Having said all this, I'm not opposed to the current nation state of Israel. I just don't think its existence is of divine origin; further, the Israeli government has rather consistently been on the side of perpetuating violence and injustice against non-Israelis. Following that, it boggles the mind how there is a religious ideology among so many Christians that is perfectly okay with violence and wonton injustice against their Palestinian brothers and sisters.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lovely Lane]

"House of David"
Why was it important Matthew and Luke penned the genealogy of Jesus?

Matthew writes of genealogy from Abraham (of whom the old covenant, by sign of circumcision) to Jesus, the author of the new covenant, a spiritual circumcision where all souls are welcomed, Jew and Gentile, in the Church of Christ.
Luke writes of the city of David where a Savior, Christ the Lord is born. As well as in scripting a genealogy as far back to Adam, (then one more step back) ,the son of God.
I believe that God promised to bless all the tribes of the earth, and that His promise is completed, fulfilled, in the works of Jesus.

Was it not the Kingdom of Israel that rejected the Davidic lineage, refusing to accept Rehoboam , lineage of David, as king? I believe it was.
1948 State of Israel was created by Zionist for Zionist using the biblical name of Israel. 1948 State of Israel is not the "House of David". Hence, perhaps the reason why they did not take the name State of Judah.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

An Interview With Dr. Hajo Meyer

By DAVID ZLUTNICK

''Zionism and Judaism are contrary to each other. Because Judaism is universal and humane, and Zionism is exactly the opposite. It is very narrow, very nationalistic, racist, colonialist, and all this. There is no ''National Judaism.'' There is Zionism and there is Judaism, and they are completely different.''

David Zlutnick: "Zionism Has Nothing to do With Judaism"

Well that's a gross simplification. Rabbinic Judaism and secular Zionism are certainly often at odds, but to say one cannot be an orthodox Jew and a secular Zionist is to misunderstand both.

An orthodox Jew might not believe that the modern nation-state called Israel founded in 1948 is the reestablished kingdom of ha-Mashiach (the Messiah), but there's nothing that forbids them from being either a secular or a religious Zionist. As a religious Zionist, they might say that the modern nation-state of Israel is the germ of the future restored kingdom of Israel; or, as a secular Zionist, they may simply believe that it is important for their ethnic group, like every ethnic group, to have a national homeland with a nation-state that can defend their interests internationally.

I don't want to rush to Godwin's Law, but frankly this line of thinking is precisely the sort of rhetoric that became the foundational doctrines of the Third Reich concerning the "Judenfrage".

Zionism is not Judaism. Zionism is not the Jewish people. Zionism is a secular, nationalist philosophy.

-CryptoLutheran

It began that way, anyhow. But following the Six Day War (1967) and the capture of East Jerusalem by the Israeli Defense Forces, religious Zionism became a very serious force in both American and Israeli politics.

And I must say, while I am certainly and obviously not a Christian Zionist (dispensationalist), let alone a religious Jewish Zionist, the religious Zionist perspective does pretty much look like the Judaism looked throughout the Second Temple Period and especially from beginning of the (successful) Maccabean Revolt in 167 BCE to the end of the (unsuccessful) Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE.

 

[Frogster]

Lets stop looking at the flesh.


Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

lets look to the new creation, and let's get rid of al this touchy feely israel worship, and land mass worship, and racism, ethnocentricity and nationalism, jewish pride etc, it boring.


2 Cor 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

For the past 2000 years Jews have been praying three times daily for the restoration of Jerusalem and the Temple and that they be permitted to return to the land.

Hard to see how you can separate the two.

So they will continue to do it another 2000yrs. And your point?

..

 

[Lovely Lane]

Why is ok for these organizations to lobby government, infiltrate college campuses, abuse the courts. Just look at the ZOA Center for Law and Justice (ZOA-CLJ) Zionist Organization of America - Law & Justice where they state that they fight against anti-Israel bias in the media and on college campuses.
I get it when they want to protect their religious freedoms, but to me it isn't American to use the courts to suppress ones freedom of speech concerning anti-Israel reporting.


The Jewish Virtual Library - About AICE
World Zionist Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zionist Organization of America - About the ZOA
Types of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Why is ok for these organizations to lobby government, infiltrate college campuses, abuse the courts. Just look at the ZOA Center for Law and Justice (ZOA-CLJ) Zionist Organization of America - Law & Justice where they state that they fight against anti-Israel bias in the media and on college campuses.
I get it when they want to protect their religious freedoms, but to me it isn't American to use the courts to suppress ones freedom of speech concerning anti-Israel reporting.


The Jewish Virtual Library - About AICE
World Zionist Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zionist Organization of America - About the ZOA
Types of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Could you provide some examples of court cases where the court has ruled in their favor and, say, awarded damages for slander or libel?

 

[Lovely Lane]

Could you provide some examples of court cases where the court has ruled in their favor and, say, awarded damages for slander or libel?

http://www.zoa.org/media/user/images/zoa report F-2012-low.pdf
begin on page 10 to see how ZOA uses the power of legal intimidation.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

http://www.zoa.org/media/user/images/zoa%20report%20F-2012-low.pdf
begin on page 10 to see how ZOA uses the power of legal intimidation.

This is all pretty typical activity for an advocacy group. Could you perhaps state which parts you have a problem with?

 

[Lovely Lane]

This is all pretty typical activity for an advocacy group. Could you perhaps state which parts you have a problem with?

sure, I'll post it again

...where they state that they fight against anti-Israel bias in the media and on college campuses.

These legal beagles just don't sit around twiddling thumbs..

Staff and Board
Susan B. Tuchman, Esq.
Director since 2003. Ms. Tuchman graduated magna cum laude, with honors, from Brandeis University, and received her law degree from the Boston University School of Law, where she was accorded the academic distinction of Paul J. Liacos Scholar.
Following a clerkship with the Superior Court of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Ms. Tuchman was a litigator at the Boston law firm of Fine & Ambrogne until the firm's dissolution, and then practiced in the Boston office of the law firm of Hinckley, Allen & Snyder, where she was the first woman partner in the firm's litigation department. Ms. Tuchman had a general and varied commercial litigation practice at both firms, and also handled several civil rights and constitutional cases.
In addition to a Director managing its day-to-day affairs, the ZOA-CLJ has a distinguished Board of Advisors:

• Morris J. Amitay, Esq., a prominent Washington lobbyist and head of a major pro-Israel PAC who was formerly national executive director of AIPAC.
• Louis Rene Beres, a professor of international law at Purdue University who has lectured and published widely on international relations and international law.
• Kenneth J. Bialkin, Esq., a senior partner with the law firm of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, past chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, and past national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League.
• Stephen M. Flatow, Esq., a leader of legal and educational efforts to hold terrorists and their sponsors accountable for their actions.
• Malvina Halberstam, a professor of international law at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law and former counselor on international law for the U.S. Department of State, Office of the Legal Advisor.
• Nathan Lewin, Esq., a renowned expert in criminal and constitutional law who has taught at Columbia Law School, Harvard Law School, and the University of Chicago Law School, and is at the vanguard of litigation against terrorists and their supporters.
• Steven R. Perles, Esq., founder of his own firm and one of the country's leading lawyers representing victims of terrorism.
• Clifford A. Rieders, Esq., who heads his own law firm in Pennsylvania and is a past president of the Pennsylvania Trial Lawyers Association.
• David Schoen, Esq., a nationally-known criminal defense attorney.