Why Sola Scriptura isn't God's plan

[Hentenza]

I see you completely side-stepped my reference to Jesus teaching from extra-biblical tradition...

I have addressed it. Jesus taught against the "T"radition of the Pharisees and Scribes. Nothing in Matt. 23 points to Jesus teaching from extrabiblical sources.

again, we all know that pharisees were hypocrites, and they had a great responsibility of teaching other's, which is probably one of the reasons why Jesus is so harsh on them. Nevertheless, in this verse, Jesus still acknowledges that what they teach occupies a special importance, and what the pharisees taught and believed combined both oral tradition and scripture.

We are going to disagree here. It was their "T"raditions that corrupted the written word and what Jesus chastised them for. Jesus accepted their teachings on the written law NOT their teachings driven by their "T"raditions.

 

[file13]

Even that is open to debate. Zwingli spent most of his time arguing against what he saw as physical presence, but with Catholics and Luther. He seems however to have believed that the sacrament is a symbol of Christ's non-bodily presence. See e.g. The encyclopedia of Christianity - Google Books

Thanks for the comment brother! My knowledge of Zwingli is limited, so I'll take your word for it and bookmark this for later. But I do appreciate your insight here as in the past.

In any case, we'd still have to admit that, regardless if Zwingli is the cause, what I called tradition #4 does exist as an option amongst contemporary Protestants. I say this for the sake of the RCC and EO folks in the spirit of keeping it irenic.

 

[simonthezealot]

God is responsible for His creation and all that happens in it.
Being responsible for guilty parties doesn't make you guilty of what they do.
He allows evil to work for the good of those who love Him.

I fail to understand how people don't understand this, they'd prefer to believe God works with what he's given, do they not see the examples in the OT of Him raising up the Assyrians? or what about Josephs brothers selling Him off to slavery?

 

[Hentenza]

I fail to understand how people don't understand this, they'd prefer to believe God works with what he's given, do they not see the examples in the OT of Him raising up the Assyrians? or what about Josephs brothers selling Him off to slavery?

I agree. None of the OT or NT prophets were given a choice to do the will of God or not. Heck, the one that tried spent three days in the belly of a fish.

 

[StThomasMore]

I fail to understand how people don't understand this, they'd prefer to believe God works with what he's given, do they not see the examples in the OT of Him raising up the Assyrians? or what about Josephs brothers selling Him off to slavery?

He rose up the Assyrians because of the sins of Israel to chastise them. God explicitly told the Hebrews about fidelity to Him and his covenant. They chose otherwise to not be faithful and thus God punished them. Also we are talking about the major and minor prophets, who were given a special dispensation(actual grace) by God not common among the general peoples. That extra supernatural "push" by God is what actual grace is, and it differs from sanctifying grace

a good analogy of God's grace and human beings is the analogy between spiritual growth and grace and plant growth and sunlight, in that sunlight provides the power to actually photosynthesize and grace provides the power to actually do good deeds.

 

[Hentenza]

He rose up the Assyrians because of the sins of Israel to chastise them. God explicitly told the Hebrews about fidelity to Him and his covenant. They chose otherwise to not be faithful and thus God punished them. Also we are talking about the major and minor prophets, who were given a special dispensation(actual grace) by God not common among the general peoples. That extra supernatural "push" by God is what actual grace is, and it differs from sanctifying grace

1. Did any of the major or minor prophets choose not to be prophets?
2. Did God only give them a special dispensation and not sanctifying grace?
3. Did the Assyrians or the Babylonians have a choice not to raise against Israel?

 

[Philothei]

I agree. None of the OT or NT prophets were given a choice to do the will of God or not. Heck, the one that tried spent three days in the belly of a fish.

Yet He chased them to the ends of the world to do so....Hmmm does it make you wonder why? Why put up alll this marsarade? Jonas denied him... Peter denied Him three times ... We all deny Him... now and then and then again we go on our Journey ... What do we have to say for the ones who fall off? What ? they were never with us??

Falling off the faith does not mean we were never Christians ...it means we are apostates. They were called apostates in history of Christianity... they were considered Christians who lived in Apostasis (gap) from the faith..



The apostates chose to be so... The Christian faith had a name for them ...

 

[Philothei]

I fail to understand how people don't understand this, they'd prefer to believe God works with what he's given, do they not see the examples in the OT of Him raising up the Assyrians? or what about Josephs brothers selling Him off to slavery?

If God is capable of inflicting evil and good how is then all love? Love presupposes commitment to Good and thus this is a fallacy ... You cannot have dualism in God. Inflicting evil while He does good to some... Then God is not fully in control as He acts in contradiction of himself and also He fails in His promise to "save" as salvation fails to apply to All...but some.

 

[simonthezealot]

If God is capable of inflicting evil and good how is then all love? Love presupposes commitment to Good and thus this is a fallacy ... You cannot have dualism in God. Inflicting evil while He does good to some... Then God is not fully in control as He acts in contradiction of himself and also He fails in His promise to "save" as salvation fails to apply to All...but some.

What man means for evil God means for good, God does not inflict evil He ordinates
Gen 15:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

The brothers and God sent Joseph to Egypt, God was holy in His ordination man evil in their actions.

Another example...

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Wicked men did this...BUT so did God...
~~~~~


He raised Assyria a tool to be used against His own nation...They still were evil and accountable.

Isa 53:10Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makesc his life a guilt offering,

Isa 10:5 5Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hands is My indignation, 6I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7Yet it does not so intend,
Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations.

 

[Philothei]

What you say and the way to view the scripture stil stands in contradiction of the gospel of John where it says God is love. Necessity of evil is NOT doing evil. The fact God allows evil does not mean He inflicts it.

God crushes all who are disobedient to His will and do evil... by which means? God can crush anyone at anytime but if God moves in Love crushing is nothing but "retracting" His love. If we turn our face from God is God responsible for our own doing? NO... For it says "you turn your face and their wither" God turns His face when we chose to not do His will. It is simple we are not "with God " God witdraws his love and "his face" ... It is pretty much our choice to do that and the evil one-satan- is doing the rest ... God has no necessity to 'do evil upon evil" from us.
If God needs to inflict evil he stops being God of love. period.

 

[Philothei]

What you say and the way to view the scripture stil stands in contradiction of the gospel of John where it says God is love. Necessity of evil is NOT doing evil. The fact God allows evil does not mean He inflicts it.

God crushes all who are disobedient to His will and do evil... by which means? God can crush anyone at anytime but if God moves in Love crushing is nothing but "retracting" His love. If we turn our face from God is God responsible for our own doing? NO... For it says "you turn your face and their wither" God turns His face when we chose to not do His will. It is simple we are not "with God " God witdraws his love and "his face" ... It is pretty much our choice to do that and the evil one-satan- is doing the rest ... God has no necessity to 'do evil upon evil" from us.
If God needs to inflict evil he stops being God of love. period.

Also if predestination was in the OT the Hebrew religion would be believign it but they do not No Jew believes in predestination

 

[simonthezealot]

What you say and the way to view the scripture stil stands in contradiction of the gospel of John where it says God is love. Necessity of evil is NOT doing evil. The fact God allows evil does not mean He inflicts it.

God crushes all who are disobedient to His will and do evil... by which means? God can crush anyone at anytime but if God moves in Love crushing is nothing but "retracting" His love. If we turn our face from God is God responsible for our own doing? NO... For it says "you turn your face and their wither" God turns His face when we chose to not do His will. It is simple we are not "with God " God witdraws his love and "his face" ... It is pretty much our choice to do that and the evil one-satan- is doing the rest ... God has no necessity to 'do evil upon evil" from us.
If God needs to inflict evil he stops being God of love. period.

Did you simply ignore my very informative ALL scripture post so you could offer you opinion with no basis in scripture?

God does NOT inflict but He does ordinate all things.
You need to understand there are both and answers, predestination works under a form of compatiblism. Try explaining those verses i quoted above with your free-will understanding...

How can you ignore what the evil men and what God does work together, read this verse...

Acts:27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

OPEN thy eyes sister and understand there is beauty in God's powerful providence and sovereignty.

 

[Philothei]

You have not solve the problem of evil in God yet though I will asnser you when you do answer me... And my eyes are wide open ..."predestination" is no where found in the scripture ..The Jews do not believe it also that outghta tell ya somethin'

 

[simonthezealot]

You have not solve the problem of evil in God yet though I will asnser you when you do answer me... And my eyes are wide open ..."predestination" is no where found in the scripture ..The Jews do not believe it also that outghta tell ya somethin'

God has no evil in Him, what gives you that idea.

 

[Philothei]

You just said he inflicts evil How can one who inflicts evil be "love"?

 

[simonthezealot]

You just said he inflicts evil How can one who inflicts evil be "love"?

You said that, i said man's evil and God's good can be compatible. Without it affecting the purity and holiness of God almighty and I showed it over and over in scripture (Our only infallible rule of faith.) ~keeping on topic~

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Philothei;What you say and the way to view the scripture stil stands in contradiction of the gospel of John where it says God is love. Necessity of evil is NOT doing evil. The fact God allows evil does not mean He inflicts it.

He allows it to be inflicted when & where it suits His purpose, yes?

God crushes all who are disobedient to His will and do evil... by which means? God can crush anyone at anytime but if God moves in Love crushing is nothing but "retracting" His love. If we turn our face from God is God responsible for our own doing? NO... For it says "you turn your face and their wither" God turns His face when we chose to not do His will. It is simple we are not "with God " God witdraws his love and "his face" ... It is pretty much our choice to do that and the evil one-satan- is doing the rest ... God has no necessity to 'do evil upon evil" from us.
If God needs to inflict evil he stops being God of love. period.

So He didn't need to allow Joseph's brothers to throw him in the pit?
He retracted His love from Joseph?
Sounds more like He retracted His love from the brothers.

 

[Rick Otto]

You just said he inflicts evil How can one who inflicts evil be "love"?

How dare He spank His children?
No pain, no gain.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Since Ortho brushed off, glossed over my posts, I'll lay out the issues in other terms.

Problems With Tradition As The Ultimate Authority Vs. Sola Scriptura As The Ultimate Authority

1. It assumes God the Holy Spirit will not give the regenerate person sitting in the pews an infallible interpretation without a (man appointed) "religious authority".

2. The notion of infallable "religious authority" (Pope, Priest, Bishop) Scripture interpretation must be assumed first without question. With this assumption is the notion God the Holy Spirit will not give any true interpretation to the non-ordained.

3. The assumptions undermines the authority of God the Holy Spirit, placing tradition on the same level of authority, and "religious authority" even higher.

4. The assumption "personal interpretation" has done nothing but divide Christians. Creeds and confessions are evidence to the contrary.

5. The assumption that a (man appointed) "religious authority" is indeed a regenerate called, chosen, elected, speaker, that God the Holy Spirit is speaking through them infallibly on every matter pertaining to Scripture. To even make the assumption one either accepts them by blind faith, and or a pre-knowledge of Scripture.

6. The starting point therefore for true interpretation rests on blind faith in man, rather than God the Holy Spirit.

 

[sbvd]

1. Did any of the major or minor prophets choose not to be prophets?

I guess those who didn't choose to become prophets did not become prophets