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Why Sola Scriptura isn't God's plan

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LittleLambofJesus

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Not sure why you'd say such a thing.

I am a fundy and I don't believe that all of Scripture is literal except John 6.
And none of the fundies I know of believe that either.
Fundies are LeET! :thumbsup: :hug:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7350852/
GT Fundies. Who are they?

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Fundie: sunlover1 Board:Christian Forums

Quote# 23349

One time though, I was standing in
the living room waiting for something
to heat on the stove, watching the
tv, and the Lord spoke right to me, and
said, " I have hear her prayers and I
am giving her a child" (there was more
too but that was the beginning of the
message).

I was sort of freaked out, and I knew
without Him saying who He was referring
to, exactly what He meant.
It wasn't anyone I had been praying for
or even spoke to more than once a month
if that.

I asked Him why He told me and if I were
to share the info etc. but He didn't
choose to have a conversation about it
I guess.
 
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file13

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And what if the protestant examines history and finds that their belief/practice was either condemned as a heresy, or otherwise entirely absent in the early church?

Such as not venerating icons? ;)

Do they still go ahead with their practices/beliefs if their conviction is that their doctrine is 'biblical'?

This is a good question, but it's also too broad of a question. To answer it, we have to make distinctions on what is essential, what is desirable, what is allowed, and what is not allowed. It also would help if we took it out of the abstract.

That being said, what's an example of a doctrine that you have in mind here so we can bring this out of the abstract. How about the nature of the Eucharist since you bring it up later?

Despite the claims of some off thousands of numbers of "different Protestant denominations," when it comes to an issue like the Eucharist, you really only have 4 options.

  1. Christ is not only physically and spiritually present in the Eucharist, but the host really does transform into His flesh and blood (RCC & EO: RCC explains how, EO dosen't).
  2. Christ is physical and spiritually present in the Eucharist, but there is no material change to the host. (Lutheran)
  3. Christ is spiritually present in the Eucharist, but there is no physical or material change in the host. However, the host should be approached and treated as if Christ was physically present in the host. (Reformed)
  4. The Eucharist is just a symbolic ritual and Christ is not present either in spirit or flesh in the host. (Zwingli & Radical Reformation)
That's about it. So much for the thousands of different interpretations.

Now, when you read the early Fathers like Ignatius, I think you'll find that of these 4, one can validly interpret what's said by fathers such as Ignatius to be any of the first 3. Why? Because regardless of how much RCC and EO folks want to prove their case, the fathers don't go this far and are not crystal clear on what is meant. It's only until later when you find the Eucharist defined with any real precision, and based on the first three definitions, we can easily make our case to be in tune with the early church using any of the first three definitions.

With this in mind, how can you say that Christians holding to any of the first three are out of line with the interpretation of the early church? Seriously, grab a copy of the Apostolic Fathers and every time you run across a Eucharist reference, ask yourself if you can determine which of the 4 views above are supported by the text. I think you'll find that your forced to admit that only Zwingli, the father of solo or nuda scriptura, is the only one who's off in left field.

Finally, let's not forget what we said earlier about "how essential" is a doctrine? Is the Eucharist really a salvational issue in the sense that if you don't have the right belief, you're out? If you assert this, you're making salvation dependent on knowing the right formula. Does perfect doctrine now save us? So, on a scale of 1 to 10, how essential is any given doctrine and practice? (I can already see the RCC, EO, and Protestant fundies all assigning 10s to everything). This might sound silly, but it's a good way to be honest about just how serious an issue is. For example, is music in church an essential? If it's not, how important on a scale of 1 to 10 is it? How about eschatology? Is it essential for us to know exactly what God's getting at in Revelation?

These are the important distinctions we would bring up when it comes to these appeals to tradition that you're making. #1, is the issue really that big of a deal? If not, who cares? #2, if it is a big deal, is it really the case that Protestants in the manner of the Magisterial Reformers are actually not able to back up their beliefs from tradition? I would suggest that this last question can be answered in the negative when it comes to every essential doctrine (i.e. I believe we absolutely can back up our views from tradition, but more importantly from Scripture). This is why you'll often hear the expression (often attributed to Rupertus Meldenius) "in necessary things unity; in uncertain things freedom; in everything compassion."

But in the end, Protestants don't accept Nicea or Chalcedon because the church said so. We do so because we happen to agree that the doctrinal statements regarding the nature of God in these councils are in accord with the revelation of Scripture and thus, an accurate (yet not infallible) summary of the doctrine found in Scripture. Thus another expression common amongst Protestants, semper reformanda, "always reforming." We can never be content to blindly accept something simply because it's traditional. We must always make sure that our beliefs are in accord with Scripture, the final and sole source which can establish truth with absolute authority.

Hope this helps!
 
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SummaScriptura

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Not any baptist churches that i've ever been to, and that's based on 25 years in baptist churches. The word Apostles creed (much less the contents therein) never crossed the lips of any of my baptist pastors (southern and independant baptist), at least while I was in their presence.
We have it on banners in the front of our sanctuary and recite it every Sunday. It is also always printed and inserted in the Sunday bulletin. At the Baptist SBC seminary near my house, I have sat in on a class where it was being expounded upon. So nyah!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by ortho_cat Not any baptist churches that i've ever been to, and that's based on 25 years in baptist churches. The word Apostles creed (much less the contents therein) never crossed the lips of any of my baptist pastors (southern and independant baptist), at least while I was in their presence.
We have it on banners in the front of our sanctuary and recite it every Sunday. It is also always printed and inserted in the Sunday bulletin. At the Baptist SBC seminary near my house, I have sat in on a class where it was being expounded upon. So nyah!
Do you have any pics of that? :wave:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number H5251 matches the Hebrew נֵס (nec), which occurs 20 times in 20 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Isaiah 11:12 And He lifts-up a banner/ensign for Nations, and He gathers ones being outcasts of Yisra'el, and ones being shattered of Y@huwdah He is convening from four wings/corners of the Land.
[Jeremiah 51:27/Reve 20:8]

5251 nec nace from 5264; a flag; also a sail; by implication, a flagstaff; generally a signal; figuratively, a token:--banner, pole, sail, (en-)sign, standard.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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So how does the Orthodox view God's Holy Word in Scripture?

Holy Scripture is bound up and inexorably linked to Holy Tradition; they are inseparable. It is, in fact, a part of it, because Tradition precedes scripture, as the Church was founded at Pentecost, and Holy Tradition was received by the Apostle's, from Jesus, and some of it was later put into text form by various apostles and their associates.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Do you have any pics of that? :wave:

At the other end of the sanctuary, split between the two banners, reading from left to right...

Acreed.jpg
 
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Ortho_Cat

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We have it on banners in the front of our sanctuary and recite it every Sunday. It is also always printed and inserted in the Sunday bulletin. At the Baptist SBC seminary near my house, I have sat in on a class where it was being expounded upon. So nyah!

Go figure... :p
 
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hedrick

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Not any baptist churches that i've ever been to, and that's based on 25 years in baptist churches. The word Apostles creed (much less the contents therein) never crossed the lips of any of my baptist pastors (southern and independant baptist), at least while I was in their presence.

Baptists traditionally did not subscribe to creeds. Hence many (most?) wouldn't subscribe in any formal way to the Apostles' Creed. However I think most Baptists actually accept its contents. I hope that's what the original author meant.

The traditional avoidance of creeds has been modified somewhat in the last few decades in an attempt to fight liberalism. The Southern Baptists will now remove churches that they think are heretical. Furthermore, although it's not called a creed, and has limited authority, there is a Southern Baptist statement of beliefs.

I've avoided the discussion for the last few days because no one seemed to pay attention last time I said this. But I think Protestants have sufficient agreement, and that our disagreements aren't out of line with the kinds of disagreements that were normal in the Catholic tradition before the 16th Cent. I believe our denominations should be compared with the Catholic orders that had their own theological traditions, and thus that what corresponds to the Catholic Church is the entire Protestant tradition, not any one denomination.

To make this statement I have to be able to define Protestant as not including some groups that I think pretty clearly aren't part of the tradition that goes back to the Reformers. I'm thinking of groups such as the JWs and Mormons.
If you define Protestant as every group that isn't Catholic, you get absurd results, such as including the Old Catholics.

Indeed one thing the evangelical movement has done is encourage a sort of doctrinal convergence. While the process is slow and messy, conservative churches are slowly coming to accept an evangelical consensus. Liberal ones are also tending to converge, in a different way. There are things that the consensus doesn't include which Catholics think are a big deal, such as whether to baptize infants. However there are differences in the overall Protestant approach that cause some of these issues not to be as important for us as they would be for Catholics. In this case it would be the fact that Protestants generally do not accept baptismal regeneration. That permits us to accept more leeway in baptismal practice.
 
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Hentenza

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Interesting, did He tell you that?

Huh?


I wonder why Jesus taught using jewish traditions outside of scripture Himself then...(see bosom of Abraham) how ironic it is that the idea of the "Pharisees sitting on the judgment seat of Moses" is found nowhere in the OT,...could it be Jesus is referencing some extra-biblical tradition here?? Surely not... :sorry:
Not at all. In fact, the reason why Jesus told the crowd and the disciples not to do as the scribes and the Pharisees did was because they misinterpreted the written law because of their "T"raditions. Their "T"raditions corrupted the written law consequently when they taught the written law the did not do as the written law said. The verse says nothing about a "judgment" seat of Moses. It talks about the seat of Moses which was a teaching seat. If you want to see what one looks like google the teaching seat of the Chorazin synagogue (found in 4th century CE).

Frankly, you have chosen a verse that speaks loudly against "T"radition not for it. If you keep reading Jesus chastises them for doing their deeds only to be noticed by men (religious exhibitionists). Jesus uses the example of the phylacteries that they wore in their foreheads right above the eyes. These were black leather boxes containing the OT texts of Ex, 13:3-16, Deut. 6:4-9, or Deut. 11:13-21. This practice was a "T"radition derived from Ex. 13:9, Deut. 6:8, and Deut. 11:18. These texts were meant to be a guiding light for believers not a black leather box on their foreheads which only use was to boast themselves above others. The lengthening of their tassels (another "T"radition) in their robes or prayer shawls was to remind them about the Torah not as a means of boasting.

Again, "T"radition is highly corruptible as exampled by the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus reserved most of His stern words for them.
 
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Hentenza

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We have it on banners in the front of our sanctuary and recite it every Sunday. It is also always printed and inserted in the Sunday bulletin. At the Baptist SBC seminary near my house, I have sat in on a class where it was being expounded upon. So nyah!

Our church also plus the Nicene Creed. Our pastor has done sermon series on both and both have been taught in Sunday school classes (I taught about them last November).
 
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mark46

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Then Jesus was being literal when he said continue to chew my body and drink my blood in John 6.

Not sure why you'd say such a thing.

I am a fundy and I don't believe that all of Scripture is literal except John 6.
And none of the fundies I know of believe that either.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Huh?


Not at all. In fact, the reason why Jesus told the crowd and the disciples not to do as the scribes and the Pharisees did was because they misinterpreted the written law because of their "T"raditions. Their "T"raditions corrupted the written law consequently when they taught the written law the did not do as the written law said. The verse says nothing about a "judgment" seat of Moses. It talks about the seat of Moses which was a teaching seat. If you want to see what one looks like google the teaching seat of the Chorazin synagogue (found in 4th century CE).

Frankly, you have chosen a verse that speaks loudly against "T"radition not for it. If you keep reading Jesus chastises them for doing their deeds only to be noticed by men (religious exhibitionists). Jesus uses the example of the phylacteries that they wore in their foreheads right above the eyes. These were black leather boxes containing the OT texts of Ex, 13:3-16, Deut. 6:4-9, or Deut. 11:13-21. This practice was a "T"radition derived from Ex. 13:9, Deut. 6:8, and Deut. 11:18. These texts were meant to be a guiding light for believers not a black leather box on their foreheads which only use was to boast themselves above others. The lengthening of their tassels (another "T"radition) in their robes or prayer shawls was to remind them about the Torah not as a means of boasting.

Again, "T"radition is highly corruptible as exampled by the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus reserved most of His stern words for them.

I see you completely side-stepped my reference to Jesus teaching from extra-biblical tradition...

again, we all know that pharisees were hypocrites, and they had a great responsibility of teaching other's, which is probably one of the reasons why Jesus is so harsh on them. Nevertheless, in this verse, Jesus still acknowledges that what they teach occupies a special importance, and what the pharisees taught and believed combined both oral tradition and scripture.
 
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StThomasMore

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I unlike you then, believe God can and does decide what man would do in any given situation, and He can simply decide whether or not to let the situation arise. Think Joseph being sold into slavery...

You inadvertently give man credit due God, and at the same time make God to be one to simply do the best with what He is given.
Give God His glory, friend.


considering all good works essentially start with God, and He created everything, I don't need to. Your the one who seems to not respect that God gave human beings free will. Nor do you seem to realize that you go so far with your robot determinism, you essentially make God the author of Sin and Satan too. Basically mixing light with darkness.

If you wanna think God dangles human beings in tyrant mode with puppet strings by all means. Muslims think the same thing with determinism.
 
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StThomasMore

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Such as not venerating icons? ;)





Now, when you read the early Fathers like Ignatius, I think you'll find that of these 4, one can validly interpret what's said by fathers such as Ignatius to be any of the first 3. Why? Because regardless of how much RCC and EO folks want to prove their case, the fathers don't go this far and are not crystal clear on what is meant. It's only until later when you find the Eucharist defined with any real precision, and based on the first three definitions, we can easily make our case to be in tune with the early church using any of the first three definitions.

!


you sure about that? the fathers went pretty far in the Eucharist being the literal body and blood of Christ. So much so that the Pagan Romans accused the early Christians of being cannibals(they didn't understand the Eucharist)

If it was so vague, why would the pagan Romans say the Christians were cannibals who, quote, "ate the flesh of their God"

Have you read St. John of Damascus's writing "Against those who attack the Divine Images"?
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=StThomasMore;considering all good works essentially start with God, and He created everything, I don't need to. Your the one who seems to not respect that God gave human beings free will.
If you don't respect divine predestination, you enshrine human will.

Nor do you seem to realize that you go so far with your robot determinism, you essentially make God the author of Sin and Satan too. Basically mixing light with darkness.
That would be your own oversimplification, not ours.

If you wanna think God dangles human beings in tyrant mode with puppet strings by all means. Muslims think the same thing with determinism.
If you want to caricature predestination, by all means, but by extension you caricature God.
 
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StThomasMore

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If you don't respect divine predestination, you enshrine human will.

.

I think we disagree as to God's mode of predestination. In my view God predestines through his omniscience(all knowing and foreknowledge), not blind predestination.

"For those he foreknew, he predestined"


The operations of grace are through God's omniscience and mercy and not determinism. GOd wishes no one to perish, and scripture shows us that He is patient with unbelievers. Now why would God be patient with people if they are already pre-determined by Him with irresistible grace? Because of free will human beings have an infinite number of choices one can do in situations. God knows what the person will do, but He knows all the other different possibilities the human being could do also in his free will and he sets up that possibility because of free will. Love cannot exist when it is forced or the person has no choice. You can't force someone to love you. Just as salvation itself is a gift, and you can't force a gift upon someone. Yet a gift is something that one cannot earn because it is a gift. Reaching out your hands to receive the gift through ones free will doesn't mean he's 'earned' it, or that his free will of accepting the gift somehow devalues the gift itself. It simply mean he assents to the gift by the uplifting of God's holy spirit and grace with his own free will. Just as human beings assent or reject to God's grace.

Free will doesn't mean people earn God's grace or that grace is at the beck and call of human free will. God simply does not give us that option.

God being omniscient doesn't take away free will or reduce it. God simply just knows what humans will do with their free wills.
 
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file13

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you sure about that? the fathers went pretty far in the Eucharist being the literal body and blood of Christ. So much so that the Pagan Romans accused the early Christians of being cannibals(they didn't understand the Eucharist)

If it was so vague, why would the pagan Romans say the Christians were cannibals who, quote, "ate the flesh of their God"

I see the point you're trying to make. However, this dosen't make a case for Transubstantiation or any of the four views. Any of the 1st three understandings of the Eucharist all believe that Christ is present in it and so any of the three would have no problem echoing with Christ that it's "His Body" and "His blood." But also, even the fourth group would still likely echo the words of Christ and could have easily been misunderstood.

So the appeal to the Romans only proves that the Eucharist was an important and defining characteristic of early Christians and that they spoke of eating the flesh of Christ (which comes right out of Scripture, of which all four of the above mentioned views can all claim to be supported by) when they had communion. This is important and I think it should be a wake up call for churches who celebrate the Eucharist once a year and don't take it seriously. But it's just too vague to determine what exactly the Christians really believed when it comes to the "minor details."

I agree that I personally think the 4th view is the hardest to justify based on the history we have. But even if I disagree with this view, I must admit that they can make a valid (if not sound) argument that the Pagans are just confusing their words and that folks like Ignatius are simply echoing the words of Scripture and not intending for folks to assume that communion is anything more than just a ritual act.

So yeah, I smell what you're stepping in, but I don't think it makes your case.

Have you read St. John of Damascus's writing "Against those who attack the Divine Images"?

Yup. But I think Calvin made a better case. I know we disagree here, but I'm cool with that. :)
 
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Rick Otto

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What's the alternative conclusion?
God is responsible for His creation and all that happens in it.
Being responsible for guilty parties doesn't make you guilty of what they do.
He allows evil to work for the good of those who love Him.
 
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hedrick

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Such as not venerating icons? ;)
I think you'll find that your forced to admit that only Zwingli, the father of solo or nuda scriptura, is the only one who's off in left field.

Even that is open to debate. Zwingli spent most of his time arguing against what he saw as physical presence, but with Catholics and Luther. He seems however to have believed that the sacrament is a symbol of Christ's non-bodily presence. See e.g. The encyclopedia of Christianity - Google Books
 
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