Bible-Creation-Evolution

[Nathan Poe]

That was the devil? I though Genesis said it was a serpent. You are not interpreting it "metaphorically" are you?

What metaphor did the snake use anyway? I thought he just said it wasn't so and that God wanted to keep them from becoming like God.

Which is kind of interesting, because the only way to conclude that God didn't flat out lie and that the serpent was telling the truth is to read it metaphorically.

 

[AV1611VET]

Which is kind of interesting, because the only way to conclude that God didn't flat out lie and that the serpent was telling the truth is to read it metaphorically.

Spiritual death is not a metaphor -- it is literal.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Spiritual death is not a metaphor -- it is literal.

Except God didn't say anyhting about spiritual death -- that's your (Christians) metaphorical concoction.

And they didn't die that day -- physically or spiritually.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes, but the Bible makes it clear when it speaks in a parable.

How, exactly?

I believe you are pointing to this verse:
Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

But on must continue to read for the following verses tell of which God was speaking of and how with him nothing is impossible.

Gen 19:25-26 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Exactly. Jesus isn't making a comment on the probability of camels passing through the eyes' of needles, he's using it as a metaphor for God's unbridled power to save.

Because God did not speak metaphoric in the creation.

How do you know?

To a Christian it means everything.

Other Christians would disagree.

One can not be sure that there is even such thing as Salvation if he reads literal scripture as metaphoric. Now what if I can show you through the scripture that the Earth can indeed be 4,500,000,000 or possibly older? I can. It does.

Other Christians would disagree.

Believing in evolution does not disqualify one from Salvation. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ or not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is all that matters as far as Salvation is concerned. (And when I say "believing on Him") I do not mean believing in him or that he exists.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Devil questions the Word of God. In fact it's the first thing he did:

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

He tricked the woman into thinking God was speaking "metaphorically"

The Devil, or the Serpent?
In any case, as you point out, one's belief in evolution or Creationism, in an old Earth or a young Earth, doesn't affect salvation. So above, when you said "To a Christian it means everything", you seem to be contradicting yourself - either it matters with regards to salvation, or it doesn't.

 

[1611AV]

How about you just point out the part that says, "God's right, and every man is wrong except us."

Or are you just making that up?

Find out which men God talking about. Go now! and read.

 

[Doveaman]

Explain how? God pulled a rib out of a man and made it into a woman?

That really counts as a explanation? really?

Well, actually it was all done through the law of modified physics which evolution theory does not account for, unfortunately. The law of modified physics operates at the sub-atomic level manipulating matter into different elements to create different forms and shapes and substances such as a male rib being made into a beautiful woman called Eve.

We see the law of modified physics at work when Moses' staff became a snake, and when Balaam's donkey spoke human, and when Jesus took only five small loaves of bread and two small fish and fed over five thousand people until they were all satisfied.

Hope this explanation helps.

 

[AV1611VET]

Except God didn't say anyhting about spiritual death --

He didn't have to, did He?

When they didn't just drop dead, guess which was being referenced?

Even Einstein could figure that one out.

-- that's your (Christians) metaphorical concoction.

No, actually it's not.

And they didn't die that day -- physically or spiritually.

I guess you're no Einstein, are you?

 

[1611AV]

That was the devil? I though Genesis said it was a serpent. You are not interpreting it "metaphorically" are you?

What metaphor did the snake use anyway? I thought he just said it wasn't so and that God wanted to keep them from becoming like God.

Read the whole Bible and see who the Serpent was.

The same metaphor that you all use. Not taking God at his Word.

 

[1611AV]

I've heard an interesting interpretation of Genesis concerining Adam's "rib":

Men actually aren't missing any ribs -- that's just a myth. The Jews would've seen enough skeletons to have noticed that, so the notion of this myth explaining a situation which didn't actually exist makes little sense.

What I've heard, is that "rib" is actually a mistranslation, and the bone that eve was supposedly made out of was, in fact, the baculum. Humans are one of the few mammals who do not posess this bone -- something else the Jews would've noticed by looking at a couple of skeletons.

Now here we have two tangentally related situations (the presence of females, and the lack of a certain male "bone.") both begging for an explanation -- does it seem plausible that the Jews would kill two birds with one mythological stone?

Nope its more likely everything came to be from nothing originally. Which explains why "nothing" is your God. That takes faith to believe Nathan, Great faith.

 

[Doveaman]

Except God didn't say anyhting about spiritual death -- that's your (Christians) metaphorical concoction.

He didn't say anything about evolution, either. Is this your metaphorical concoction?

 

[AV1611VET]

The law of modified physics operates at the sub-atomic level manipulating matter into different elements to create different forms and shapes and substances such as a male rib being made into a beautiful woman called Eve.

I wonder if some people think God left a scar behind?

Genesis 2:21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

It wouldn't surprise me, seeing as they think God should have left the earth a mess after the Flood.

We're dealing with some real Einsteins around here, aren't we?

 

[1611AV]

Except God didn't say anyhting about spiritual death -- that's your (Christians) metaphorical concoction.

And they didn't die that day -- physically or spiritually.

Read the whole Bible Nathan, its in there.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Read the whole Bible Nathan, its in there.

You keep saying that, but you're wrong. later Christians put their spin on Hebrew myths -- completely ignorant of their contexts and origins -- as they were in the process of hijacking them for their own purposes.

Read your history, 1611, it's in there.

 

[freezerman2000]

Well, actually it was all done through the law of modified physics which evolution theory does not account for, unfortunately. The law of modified physics operates at the sub-atomic level manipulating matter into different elements to create different forms and shapes and substances such as a male rib being made into a beautiful woman called Eve.

We see the law of modified physics at work when Moses' staff became a snake, and when Balaam's donkey spoke human, and when Jesus took only five small loaves of bread and two small fish and fed over five thousand people until they were all satisfied.

Hope this explanation helps.

Something like the alchemists were trying to do when they were working on turning lead into gold?,,,

 

[Doveaman]

I've heard an interesting interpretation of Genesis concerining Adam's "rib":

Men actually aren't missing any ribs -- that's just a myth. The Jews would've seen enough skeletons to have noticed that, so the notion of this myth explaining a situation which didn't actually exist makes little sense.

If Adam was a mere metaphor representing all men then we might expect to find all men with a missing rib. But since Adam was a literal man then we would expect that only Adam's rib was missing, not ours.

 

[AV1611VET]

Something like the alchemists were trying to do when they were working on turning lead into gold?,,,

They're called 'alchemists' when they failed, right?

Had they been successful, they would have been called, 'scientists', eh?

 

[1611AV]

How, exactly?

Exactly. Jesus isn't making a comment on the probability of camels passing through the eyes' of needles, he's using it as a metaphor for God's unbridled power to save.

You answered it perfectly. God said camel through eye of needle is not impossible for God. Neither is Salvation.

How do you know?

Because He tells us in the Bible who the parable is for and He makes it known to all believers.

Other Christians would disagree.

Agree

Other Christians would disagree.

Agree

The Devil, or the Serpent?

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old SERPENT, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

In any case, as you point out, one's belief in evolution or Creationism, in an old Earth or a young Earth, doesn't affect salvation. So above, when you said "To a Christian it means everything", you seem to be contradicting yourself - either it matters with regards to salvation, or it doesn't.

No contradiction. I made that clear without having to point fingers.

Romans 10:13-17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Doveaman]

We're dealing with some real Einsteins around here, aren't we?

We sure are.

 

[Mr Dave]

If Adam was a mere metaphor representing all men then we might expect to find all men with a missing rib. But since Adam was a literal man then we would expect that only Adam's rib was missing, not ours.

How'd you arrive at that conclusion. If Adam is a metaphor representing what it is to be male then it's probably more about his character and actions and duties etc that we can use to understand the male thing. The lack of rib is neither here nor there and doesn't in anyway mean that 'adam can't be a metaphor'.

 

[TheReasoner]

Yes, but the Bible makes it clear when it speaks in a parable.

Quite. And the Genesis creation tale is such a parable.

I believe you are pointing to this verse:
Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

But on must continue to read for the following verses tell of which God was speaking of and how with him nothing is impossible.

Gen 19:25-26 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

True. But does God lie? Can He?

Because God did not speak metaphoric in the creation.

And yet you claim He must have done more than that, He must have lied. After all, all of our observations of the universe around us - which all congruently converge on one conclusion - that it's old and ever evolving - must be wrong. That is to say that what God spoke into being must in and through itself be a lie.
How do you manage to ignore this HUGE problem?

One can not be sure that there is even such thing as Salvation if he reads literal scripture as metaphoric. Now what if I can show you through the scripture that the Earth can indeed be 4,500,000,000 or possibly older? I can. It does.

But your way of reading the bible "literally" is not the only way. You have applied preconceptions and teachings of your contemporary like-minded people. Some people believe the bible says the earth is 6000 years old. Many do not. But many groups in both camps think they are absolutely right, and can quote bible verses at one another all day.
But one of those groups is proven wrong by God's very creation. So are you. This does not invalidate the bible, it invalidates your position. See the difference?

Believing in evolution does not disqualify one from Salvation. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ or not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is all that matters as far as Salvation is concerned. (And when I say "believing on Him") I do not mean believing in him or that he exists.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Devil questions the Word of God. In fact it's the first thing he did:

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

He tricked the woman into thinking God was speaking "metaphorically"

What is your opinion of the geocentrists? They thought the bible said the earth was the centre of the universe, and they had plenty of bible verses to back it, too. But they were wrong. Many or even most Christians today think your interpretation is just as wrong. And we know that if God does not lie through His creation this is indeed the case.

I am quite sure the inquisition also used that example to quell people who dared to question them. I'm not saying you run around torturing people, but you're human and could be misinterpreting the bible. For all your certainty I do hope you're not as certain as some of the more fanatical witch-burners and inquisitors, willing to torture maim and murder innocent people because they thought their interpretation was infallible.

The thing is, no-one is infallible and as has been pointed out the creationist interpretation simply has no empirical backing. As that is the case we can conclude that - if we hold fast on the bible as God's word - that the interpretation is wrong. Just as the geocentric worldview was and is wrong. That's a very very safe bet. In fact, you insist evolution is wrong, but we have observed it in nature and labs both, and not just across long periods of time but contemporarily. Not only that, but we actively use it as a tool to make antibiotics, detergents, medications, hormonal treatments, catalysts for chemical reactions and much much much more. To say it is wrong is like saying the combustion engine is a fantasy. It's nonsensical in the extreme.