The Flood

[Papias]

YSM wrote:

when a man marries a woman who is an aunt or great aunt of his father,

That sounds like an interesting idea. Let's see what we can find that would support or not support it.

God counted four generations from Jacob going into Egypt to the exodus,

I looked a bit and didn't see a verse counting them as four. You probably know where it says that - could you point it out? Thanks.

skipping Amram, because his wife was the daughter of Levi, his grandfather.

Does it say Amram is skipped for that reason? If skipped, then couldn't it be any other reason, like the fact that his name has the form AM -r - AM, or anything else? You probably know where it says why- could you point it out? Thanks.

Also, it does't appear clear that she is the daughter of Levi - the NIV states she is a descedant of Levi. Maybe the translation is not clear? The NIV has:

the name of Amram’s wife was Jochebed, a descendant of Levi, who was born to the Levites in Egypt. To Amram she bore Aaron, Moses and their sister Miriam.

Is this four generations from Jacob anyway?
Jacob to:
1 Levi
2 Jochebed
3 Amram
4 Moses

There were seventy generations from Noah to the Atonement of Jesus Christ, according to the book of Enoch: and so there are, in the legal countings.

If we are going to rely on writings outside the Bible, then there are plenty of other problems, such as the fact that other books from the DSS list the specific kinds that were created in Genesis, and so on.

This is an interesting line of inquiry, and thanks for bringing this up. I'm not sure yet if it stands up a closer examination though.

zeke wrote:

names can be "blotted out" for idolatry...

OK, then could you please show that the skipped names committed idolatry, and that everyone else on the list did not committ idolatry? I mean, does that easily testable idea agree with what the Bibles actually say?

In claiming that Luke's geneology is from Mary, you are going against what Luke actually wrote. He explicitly stated that his geneology is of Joseph, not Mary. Or is it OK to supplant human traditions in place of what the Bible says?

Papias

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YSM wrote:


That sounds like an interesting idea. Let's see what we can find that would support or not support it.



I looked a bit and didn't see a verse counting them as four. You probably know where it says that - could you point it out? Thanks.

Yes, with pleasure.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

Exd 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram [were] an hundred and thirty and seven years.

Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife [was] Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom [her mother] bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

Is this four generations from Jacob anyway?
Jacob to:
1 Levi
2 Jochebed
3 Amram
4 Moses

Papias

I am sorry, if I wrote the above list in my post [without going back to check before writing this], for I surely did not intend to do so, as the generations are the fourth, counted from Abraham, to whom the promise was given, direct to the Exodus.

Isaac
Jacob,
Levi
Moses


There is more: in the seventieth generation from Moses, the Christ who would fulfill the promises of the Atonement would be born [ which Atonement was rehearsed by the High Priest in Israel once, yearly, when the sins and iniquities of the nation were transferred to the goat elected by lot on the Day of Atonement "to Azazel" (mistranslated to English as "scapegoat"), and that goat "to Azazel" was sent away, "to Azazel" in the wilderness. This connection to the goat elected by lot "to Azazel" on the day of Atonement's rehearsal once, yearly, comes from a portion of the Book of Enoch which was written by Noah and included in that book. "in the seventieth generation" all sin would be ascribed [given] "to Azazel.

Also, for legal counting of genealogies [in God's record books],back to Adam from Christ, Noah's sons were counted as sons of Enoch, as their mother was a daughter of Enoch, as the book of Jasher states.
And Noah's grandsons through his sons were counted as sons of Methusaleh, for Noah took wives for them from the daughters of Eliakim, son of Methusaleh.

Jasher 5:15 Noah went and took a wife, and he chose Naamah the daughter of Enoch, and she was five hundred and eighty years old.



5:34

In his five hundred and ninety-fifth year Noah commenced to make the ark, and he made the ark in five years, as the Lord had commanded.
35

Then Noah took the three daughters of Eliakim, son of Methuselah, for wives for his sons, as the Lord had commanded Noah.
36

And it was at that time Methuselah the son of Enoch died, nine hundred and sixty years old was he, at his death.

In the record book, Jasher, you can trace several more where the fathers married aunts, or great aunts, in the line of the Patriarchs after the flood [I can't think of great aunts, at the moment, but I will check]. In those instances, the counting of generations skips the fathers in the line, and goes from the father of the mother to the sons born, as we see in the case of Moses being counted as Levi's generation, by YHWH [because his mother was a daughter of Levi], in the promise given to Abraham at the time of the giving of the Land Covenant.
"The Upright Record "="the Book of Jasher" gives a complete genealogy from Adam to Joshua. These records existed in written family records, and in the records of the books stored in the temple at the time of the Babylonian dispersion; and then, in the time of Christ, in the temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Papias]

Yeshua wrote:

Yes, with pleasure.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.
​

Exd 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram [were] an hundred and thirty and seven years.

Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife [was] Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom [her mother] bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

Oh, now I see what is done here, is counting generations mixing males and females when a marriage betwen an aunt with a nephew is included, and choosing to use the shorter of the two lines. That can't be the cause of the skipped generations we were talking about, because the three generations cut out are in a row, so to use this method, a person would have to marry their great great aunt, who would be much too old. More than that, a double line thing is never mentioned in the text anyway.

Plus, we see there in exodus 6 that Amram's father wasn't Levi, but was Kohath, so our base example might not work:

The sons of Kohath were Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel.

There is more: in the seventieth generation ....., comes from a portion of the Book of Enoch

But the book of Enoch isn't in most Bibles - neither yours nor mine I'd guess. Didn't I just point out in my last post that we shouldn't be equating human writings with scripture? Pardon my question - I'm just trying to get clear my own thoughts approaching our discussion - but do you subscribe to the Nicene creed? Thanks-

Papias

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Plus, we see there in exodus 6 that Amram's father wasn't Levi, but was Kohath, so our base example might not work:

The sons of Kohath were Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel.

God did not count Amram and Kohath when He gave the prophecy that in the fourth generation, his descendants would inherit Canaan -from the time of the prophecy. -Why? Because Moses is counted as coming straight from the loins of Levi in God's prophecy, being born of Levi's daughter.
Though Moses came from the loins of Levi, biblically speaking, he came through Kohath and Amram, but they are not counted as two generations in the prophecy, because Moses' mother was the daughter of Levi.

I'll get back to you, gotta go to bed.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

... That can't be the cause of the skipped generations we were talking about, because the three generations cut out are in a row, so to use this method, a person would have to marry their great great aunt, who would be much too old. More than that, a double line thing is never mentioned in the text anyway.

Papias

I am not dealing with the so called skipped generations in this at this time, but I am showing that YHWH did not count Kohath and Amram as two generations, in the promise, but counted only from Levi to Moses, one generation, in the promise, and I gave the reason He uses in the last post.

Moses is counted as coming from the loins of Levi, which is biblical, as Moses is the son of Levi's daughter. God often skips generations in promises in the Word, and He specifically states that the seed comes from the loins of the father, even when it is going through more than one generation, to the specific generation named in the promise.

As to marrying the great aunts, that is done on several named occaisions in the historical accounts.
Amram married his own aunt, his father's sister.
Noah's sons married great aunts.

35 Then Noah took the three daughters of Eliakim, son of Methuselah, for wives for his sons, as the Lord had commanded Noah.

Jasher Chapter 5 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887

5 And Levi and Issachar went to the land of the east, and they took unto themselves for wives the daughters of Jobab the son of Yoktan, the son of Eber; and Jobab the son of Yoktan had two daughters; the name of the elder was Adinah, and the name of the younger was Aridah.


6 And Levi took Adinah, and Issachar took Aridah, and they came to the land of Canaan, to their father's house, and Adinah bare unto Levi, Gershon, Kehath and Merari; three sons.


13 And Adon the wife of Asher died in those days: she had no offspring; and it was after the death of Adon that Asher went to the other side of the river and took for a wife Hadurah the daughter of Abimael, the son of Eber, the son of Shem.


14 And the young woman was of a comely appearance, and a woman of sense, and she had been the wife of Malkiel the son of Elam, the son of Shem.


And Hadurah bare a daughter unto Malkiel, and he called her name Serach, and Malkiel died after this, and Hadurah went and remained in her father's house.
16

And after the death of the wife at Asher he went and took Hadurah for a wife, and brought her to the land of Canaan, and Serach her daughter he also brought with them, and she was three years old, and the damsel was brought up in Jacob's house.



23 And in those days Judah went to the house of Shem and took Tamar the daughter of Elam, the son of Shem, for a wife for his first born Er.

Jasher Chapter 45 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887

 

[gluadys]

Jasher Chapter 5 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887




5 And Levi and Issachar went to the land of the east, and they took unto themselves for wives the daughters of Jobab the son of Yoktan, the son of Eber; and Jobab the son of Yoktan had two daughters; the name of the elder was Adinah, and the name of the younger was Aridah.


6 And Levi took Adinah, and Issachar took Aridah, and they came to the land of Canaan, to their father's house, and Adinah bare unto Levi, Gershon, Kehath and Merari; three sons.


13 And Adon the wife of Asher died in those days: she had no offspring; and it was after the death of Adon that Asher went to the other side of the river and took for a wife Hadurah the daughter of Abimael, the son of Eber, the son of Shem.


14 And the young woman was of a comely appearance, and a woman of sense, and she had been the wife of Malkiel the son of Elam, the son of Shem.


And Hadurah bare a daughter unto Malkiel, and he called her name Serach, and Malkiel died after this, and Hadurah went and remained in her father's house.
16

And after the death of the wife at Asher he went and took Hadurah for a wife, and brought her to the land of Canaan, and Serach her daughter he also brought with them, and she was three years old, and the damsel was brought up in Jacob's house.



23 And in those days Judah went to the house of Shem and took Tamar the daughter of Elam, the son of Shem, for a wife for his first born Er.

Jasher Chapter 45 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887

So Shem moved his household to Canaan?

 

[Papias]

YesuaSM wrote:

Moses is counted as coming from the loins of Levi, which is biblical, as Moses is the son of Levi's daughter.

Not sure why that's relevant, since once someone has a few kids, their descendants are very likely to include nearly all humans on earth withing a relatively short time. For instance, if Levi existed and had a few kids, then nearly everyone from London to Bombay, totaling billions of people, are likely his descendants.

As to marrying the great aunts, that is done on several named occaisions in the historical accounts.

Please don't change my words. I said great great aunt. Since we aren't even talking about that anymore, I'm not sure I'm interested. After all, I don't care what is in old legendary writings that we have no reason to accept as real, such as the books of Jasher and Enoch, which aren't in most Bibles.

Then Noah took the three daughters of Eliakim,

This is starting to sound like some racial based stuff I've seen, where silly claims are made that these were the base of the races, and stuff like Cain being black. I hope you agree that all that is bunk, and that believing human books that claim to be giving us the word of God, as the book of Jasher does, is not something that should be done.


Also, you didn't respond to the ending of my last post, pointing out that you are relying on just what some people wrote. If we are going to equate books outside our Bibles to the word of God, then we need to also accept that hercules was real and the son of a god. Do you see Hercules as the son of a god?

Here it is again:

But the book of Enoch (and Jasher) isn't in most Bibles - neither yours nor mine I'd guess. Didn't I just point out in my last post that we shouldn't be equating human writings with scripture? Pardon my question - I'm just trying to get clear my own thoughts approaching our discussion - but do you subscribe to the Nicene creed? Thanks-

Papias

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So Shem moved his household to Canaan?

He was in the "east", says the passage.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Not sure why that's relevant, since once someone has a few kids, their descendants are very likely to include nearly all humans on earth withing a relatively short time. For instance, if Levi existed and had a few kids, then nearly everyone from London to Bombay, totaling billions of people, are likely his descendants.

No, the seed is carried by the male, so no one is of Levi's seed unless they are, in fact, from Levi.
Everyone on earth is descended from Adam, through Noah, but after that, the tribes became separated and divided by tongues over the earth, and we are all either of Japheth, Ham, or Shem, "seed-wise".

Please don't change my words. I said great great aunt. Since we aren't even talking about that anymore, I'm not sure I'm interested. After all, I don't care what is in old legendary writings that we have no reason to accept as real, such as the books of Jasher and Enoch, which aren't in most Bibles.

If you cannot use the Bible and biblical history then why do you even come to discuss anything? The sons of Jacob who got wives of the daughters of Yoktan married their great, great, great, great, great, great aunts. They were contempories, as the histories and the Bible also show, for even Shem was alive until after Isaac was born, and attended Isaac's "coming of age party" -when he was weaned and began to eat with the adults- as the histories show.
men were still living longer -though shortened, lives, at the time Yoktan was born; which is why his father named him "yoktan" ="diminished and cut short"

This is starting to sound like some racial based stuff I've seen, where silly claims are made that these were the base of the races, and stuff like Cain being black. I hope you agree that all that is bunk, and that believing human books that claim to be giving us the word of God, as the book of Jasher does, is not something that should be done.

You are a making racist statements, not I.
We are all one single human being race, named Adam, by our Creator, and made male and female [Genesis 5:2, Malachi 2:15], of varying colors on purpose; and the tribes began to be divided and scattered over the earth, by language divisions, not by color divisions, at the fall of the tower of Babel, says the Word of God.
And Cain was black, like his mother, Eve. Abel was red, and Seth was white, like his father. Noah's three sons were black, red, and white. Noah was white -so white, in fact, that his daddy, Lamech, feared that his wife had messed with the fallen angels because Noah was as white as the offspring of the fallen angels were, who took daughters of Adam. But he was assured that he was the father of Noah, who shone brightly, lighting up the room, and spoke, praising God, when he came out of the Womb into the midwife's hands.

Also, you didn't respond to the ending of my last post, pointing out that you are relying on just what some people wrote. If we are going to equate books outside our Bibles to the word of God, then we need to also accept that hercules was real and the son of a god. Do you see Hercules as the son of a god?

This is not about Hercules, or any other book relating to the giants.

But the book of Enoch (and Jasher) isn't in most Bibles - neither yours nor mine I'd guess. Didn't I just point out in my last post that we shouldn't be equating human writings with scripture? Pardon my question - I'm just trying to get clear my own thoughts approaching our discussion - but do you subscribe to the Nicene creed? Thanks-

Papias

I am neither Catholic nor Protestant, but a Born again in Christ Bible Believing, female, Gentile, water baptized, Holy Spirit baptized, tongues speaking /singing/ praying, Christian; and as far as the Nicene Creed goes, I love it, and esp in song by John Michael Talbot. I have no dispute with it, doctrinally, and could even explain from Scripture the Triune YHWH better, I think.
[ P.S.: the Nicene Creed was written by men, it isn't in the "canon" of Protestants or Catholics, but Enoch is in the list of collected books [bible] of the Ethiopian Coptic Church.

 

[gluadys]

He was in the "east", says the passage.

Well, Judah was in Canaan going to a sheep-shearing with his Canaanite father-in-law. Apparently Tamar, who was living in her father's house (Shem's house?) was close enough to hear about it and arrange her seduction of Judah that very day. (Genesis 38)

So how far east was her father's house? Sounds to me that it couldn't be more that an hour or so journey (on foot) from Judah's house. Consider: 1. someone has to go tell her that Judah is on his way to Timnah. 2. She has to make preparations to meet him at Enaim on the way to Timnah. 3. She has to go home again. 4. When the sheep-shearing is done, Judah sends a messenger to Enaim with the kid he promised her. 5. The messenger has to return to Judah to tell him he couldn't find her.

But would scripture describe any place close enough for all this travelling in a short time as "in the east"? That usually means, at a minimum, the other side of the Jordan river.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well, Judah was in Canaan going to a sheep-shearing with his Canaanite father-in-law. Apparently Tamar, who was living in her father's house (Shem's house?) was close enough to hear about it and arrange her seduction of Judah that very day. (Genesis 38)

So how far east was her father's house? Sounds to me that it couldn't be more that an hour or so journey (on foot) from Judah's house. Consider: 1. someone has to go tell her that Judah is on his way to Timnah. 2. She has to make preparations to meet him at Enaim on the way to Timnah. 3. She has to go home again. 4. When the sheep-shearing is done, Judah sends a messenger to Enaim with the kid he promised her. 5. The messenger has to return to Judah to tell him he couldn't find her.

But would scripture describe any place close enough for all this travelling in a short time as "in the east"? That usually means, at a minimum, the other side of the Jordan river.

I was in a hurry and had made a quick post. Sorry to not take time with your question. I was referring to Yoktan as being in the east.

Shem lived in Salem, and was the melche-zedek/king of righteousness who met Abraham, as priest of the Most High God, and King of Salem at Mount Moriah, as the ancient writings say, who came out to meet Abraham and bless him, when Abraham chased Nimrod and the three kings into Lebanon and got back the spoils and persons they had taken from Sodom, and the cities of the plain..

Abraham lived with Noah and Shem for 39 years [I think it was], while hiding from Nimrod, who wanted to slay him. Later, Isaac was sent to learn the ways of the LORD with them and then, later, Jacob was sent to Shem, to learn the ways of the LORD from him, after Noah was dead.
Shem died when Jacob was living with him.

http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C021.htm

3 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac at eight days old, as God had commanded Abraham to do unto his seed after him; and Abraham was one hundred, and Sarah ninety years old, when Isaac was born to them.
4 And the child grew up and he was weaned, and Abraham made a great feast upon the day that Isaac was weaned.
5 And Shem and Eber and all the great people of the land, and Abimelech king of the Philistines, and his servants, and Phicol, the captain of his host, came to eat and drink and rejoice at the feast which Abraham made upon the day of his son Isaac's being weaned.
6

Also Terah, the father of Abraham, and Nahor his brother, came from Haran, they and all belonging to them, for they greatly rejoiced on hearing that a son had been born to Sarah.
7 And they came to Abraham, and they ate and drank at the feast which Abraham made upon the day of Isaac's being weaned.
8 And Terah and Nahor rejoiced with Abraham, and they remained with him many days in the land of the Philistines.
9 At that time Serug the son of Reu died, in the first year of the birth of Isaac son of Abraham.
10 And all the days of Serug were two hundred and thirty-nine years, and he died.
11 And Ishmael the son of Abraham was grown up in those days; he was fourteen years old when Sarah bare Isaac to Abraham.
17And after this Shelach the son at Arpachshad died in that year, which is the eighteenth year of the lives of Jacob and Esau; and all the days that Shelach lived were four hundred and thirty-three years and he died.
18 At that time Isaac sent his younger son Jacob to the house of Shem and Eber, and he learned the instructions of the Lord, and Jacob remained in the house of Shem and Eber for thirty-two years, and Esau his brother did not go, for he was not willing to go, and he remained in his father's house in the land of Canaan.

24 And it came to pass in those days, in the hundred and tenth year of the life of Isaac, that is in the fiftieth year of the life of Jacob, in that year died Shem the son of Noah; Shem was six hundred years old at his death.

25 And when Shem died Jacob returned to his father to Hebron which is in the land of Canaan.

Shem was at Sarah's funeral.

Jasher Chapter 24 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887
12 And after this Abraham buried his wife Sarah there, and that place and all its boundary became to Abraham and unto his seed for a possession of a burial place.
13 And Abraham buried Sarah with pomp as observed at the interment of kings, and she was buried in very fine and beautiful garments.
14 And at her bier was Shem, his sons Eber and Abimelech, together with Anar, Ashcol and Mamre, and all the grandees of the land followed her bier.
15nd the days of Sarah were one hundred and twenty-seven years and she died, and Abraham made a great and heavy mourning, and he performed the rites of mourning for seven days.

17
And when the days of their mourning passed by Abraham sent away his son Isaac, and he went to the house of Shem and Eber, to learn the ways of the Lord and his instructions, and Abraham remained there three years.

 

[gluadys]

I was in a hurry and had made a quick post. Sorry to not take time with your question. I was referring to Yoktan as being in the east.

Shem lived in Salem, and was the melche-zedek/king of righteousness who met Abraham, as priest of the Most High God, and King of Salem at Mount Moriah, as the ancient writings say, who came out to meet Abraham and bless him, when Abraham chased Nimrod and the three kings into Lebanon and got back the spoils and persons they had taken from Sodom, and the cities of the plain..

Abraham lived with Noah and Shem for 39 years [I think it was], while hiding from Nimrod, who wanted to slay him. Later, Isaac was sent to learn the ways of the LORD with them and then, later, Jacob was sent to Shem, to learn the ways of the LORD from him, after Noah was dead.
Shem died when Jacob was living with him.

Shem was at Sarah's funeral.

And how do you square all this with Gen. 11:31?

 

[Papias]

YesuaSM wrote:

No, the seed is carried by the male, so no one is of Levi's seed unless they are, in fact, from Levi.

Do you mean genetically or metaphorically? Genetically, that's not true - we get approximately equal amounts of DNA from each parent (in fact, a little more from our mothers, not fathers).

At first, people didn't understand why pregnancy started (and hence thought that babies were simply the creation of women). Then, after that, they noticed that sex was needed first, and hence thought that babies were simply planted by the male seed, and that women didn't contribute anything. This was the time in which most of the books in most Bibles were written, so they often reflect this. To hang on that old idea now, in anything beyond a metaphorical sense, is to miss the continuing revelation of God in his other book, his creation.

Everyone on earth is descended from Adam, through Noah, but after that, the tribes became separated and divided by tongues over the earth, and we are all either of Japheth, Ham, or Shem, "seed-wise".

Your interpretation is different from mine. We also may differ on our views of the age of the origin of languages - which evidence shows date to more than 10,000 years ago.

They were contempories, as the histories and the Bible also show, for even Shem was alive until after Isaac was born, and attended Isaac's "coming of age party" -when he was weaned and began to eat with the adults- as the histories show.

You mean the histories in YOUR bible, not mine. Most Christians don't have the histories you keep citing. To most of us, they are just the inventions of humans, just like the stories of Hercules or Mithras. That's OK though, we can see that we have different Bibles and different Christianities. I respect you in your different basis of Christianity, and hope that you understand that I don't share it.

You are a making racist statements, not I.

I certianly did not - I mentioned that such views were bunk.

And Cain was black, like his mother, Eve. Abel was red, and Seth was white, like his father. Noah's three sons were black, red, and white.

In addition to there being no basis for that belief, it doesn't fit with a basic understanding of genetics. I hope you don't take statements like that literally, regardless of whether they come from one or another's Bibles, or from human legends.

Noah was white -so white, in fact, that his daddy, Lamech, feared that his wife had messed with the fallen angels because Noah was as white as the offspring of the fallen angels were, who took daughters of Adam. But he was assured that he was the father of Noah, who shone brightly, lighting up the room, and spoke, praising God, when he came out of the Womb into the midwife's hands.

Literal promiscuous angels and glowing people? Come on.

This is not about Hercules, or any other book relating to the giants.

Didn't you just mention promiscuous angels and glowing people? How are those less far-fetched than Hercules?

the Nicene Creed was written by men

, it isn't in the "canon" of Protestants or Catholics, but Enoch is in the list of collected books [bible] of the Ethiopian Coptic Church.

Yes, thanks for reminding me that many Christian Bibles do include Enoch, and that the many different Bibles give different beliefs and different Christianities. Please understand that I don't put any credibility in your books of Enoch or Jasher from your Bible, and more than a Baptist believes a word from 1 Maccabees, which is in my Bible, etc. So with that we can talk about them I guess, but it is irrelevant in my mind.

Papias

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And how do you square all this with Gen. 11:31?

What is it that you think is not "squared"?
Gen 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Gen 12:4 ¶ So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Haran is in Lebanon? -I think, but I admit that I am posting in haste without searching, because I have a project going on that needs attention, off and on..I let a little hen that was broody have fertilized eggs, and the weather is too cold for them to be safe if they hatch, and they are due, beginning Monday; so here I am, trying to make a way to house her in warmth, without cutting her off from the coop and sister hens... I am learning as I go, about this, as this is the first set of laying hens I've ever had, which a daughter brought to me last April-[with my permission].

Anyway, I am happy to discourse this with you, and I'll be back, meantime: will you search out for yourself the tribal settlings as recorded in Genesis and in the Book of Jasher -which clarifies a lot that is left dangling in Genesis, because "behold, was it not written in the Book of Jasher!" [Joshua 10:13; 2 Sam 1:18]. Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YesuaSM wrote:

Do you mean genetically or metaphorically? Genetically, that's not true - we get approximately equal amounts of DNA from each parent (in fact, a little more from our mothers, not fathers).

Papias

I have no time to reply toall of your post right now [but will later], but the soul is from the seed carried in the loins of the father, and that has come through the loins of the male since all seed were created int he loins of the first Adam, as Scripture states in many places, and supports with proofs many. So the seed [for the soul of Moses] from Levi, passed through Kohath and Amram, but because Jochedbed, Levi's daughter was Moses' mother, Moses was counted as the fourth generation from Abraham in YHWH's manner of counting the generations. I only report what He said about it to clarify a reason why I believe that some names are missing in some genealogies, because of the observation I made and posted.

The soul is not what determines the genetic make-up, but the Adam spirit which both the male and the female Adam persons have their own "remnant/share" of [Malachi 2:15],and which builds the body of flesh for the soul to indwell [at conception],and so, viola! the genetic make-up of each body that each soul wears is got from both parents, via the one Adam spirit which builds the body in the womb at conception.
If I had been born of any other mother than my own, as my father's seed, I would still be his seed and a soul out of that seed from his loins, but I would look like -or carry DNA from- both my father and my mother, no matter who she was, because of DNA got from both the mother and the father: but I would still be the same soul determined in the Book of Life to come forth, from the beginning of creation, in my pre-appointed season, and bounded by my days as recorded in that Book. All the seed will be conceived which is determined in the Book of Life, no matter who the mother is, but they flow from the father's line, beginning with Adam.
This is my understanding and I have briefly explained the reason, but I can give lots of Scripture to show why I believe this.

 

[Papias]

YeshuaSM wrote:

the soul is from the seed carried in the loins of the father, and that has come through the loins of the male since all seed were created int he loins of the first Adam, as Scripture states in many places, and supports with proofs many.

Sperm have souls?

So when a man [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], literally dozens of millions of souls come out, and literally at least 99.9999+% of them die, by design?

And men are soul manufacturers, who are making hundreds of souls every hour of every day? Wow, I guess remembering that will help me feel that I've been productive, even on days when I get nothing (else) done! Hey, look at that - 71 more just while I typed that!

As a Roman Catholic, may I humbly mention:

YouTube - Every Sperm is Sacred {Monty Python's Meaning of Life}


Papias

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YeshuaSM wrote:



Sperm have souls?
Papias

Not until the spirit of the Adam "being" causes the seed to come "to fruit" in the egg. Then the Adam spirit/force of its being, builds the house, biblically speaking, for the conceived soul to be housed in.
We are a soul, and spoken of as being seed in the loins of our fathers, who will come to fruit in our season.
This is the way of all the created, single, individual spirits/forces of "being" of all flesh, to build the house for the kind, of a single individual seed come to the beginnings of its "fruit" at conception.
You will find the language for this in the Word, if you look for yourself.

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;Gen 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls [were]

Exd 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt [already].threescore and six;

1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.

2Ch 6:9 Notwithstanding thou shalt not build the house; but thy son which shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house for my name.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Hbr 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Hbr 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father [great-grandfather], when Melchisedec met him.

The male carries the seed bag. The spirit of the Adam kind is the force that causes the seed to come to fruit, and that is done by that spirit according to the Book of Life, and what is written in it. All created spirits of all flesh obey the Creator, to multiply the kind, in its own image, by the seed created within it

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And how do you square all this with Gen. 11:31?

What is it that you think is not "squared"?
Gen 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Gen 12:4 ¶ So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Haran is in Lebanon? -I think, but I admit that I am posting in haste without searching,
Anyway, I am happy to discourse this with you, and I'll be back, meantime: will you search out for yourself the tribal settlings as recorded in Genesis and in the Book of Jasher -which clarifies a lot that is left dangling in Genesis, because "behold, was it not written in the Book of Jasher!" [Joshua 10:13; 2 Sam 1:18]. Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com

I searched. Haran is in Turkey.
Beehive, Haran (Turkey) - Images

I will wait for how you think it does not "square".
Thanks,
Terrie

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YesuaSM wrote:

I don't put any credibility in your books of Enoch or Jasher from your Bible, and more than a Baptist believes a word from 1 Maccabees, which is in my Bible, etc. So with that we can talk about them I guess, but it is irrelevant in my mind.

Papias

Jasher is true history. Maccabees is also true history.

 

[iambeeman]

Going back a bit, but in a culture where people marry young and have as many children as God blesses them with marring your great great aunt isn't that far fetched. I myself married my 2nd cousins grand daughter (we didn't know it till we were engaged and the doctors said it was OK) and she is 2 years older than her youngest uncle. Just hang out in a culture where large families are the norm and you'll find marring your great great relative isn't a big deal not common to be sure but not impossible.

not that I expect a response but y'all should be told this.