Discussion on Arab/Israeli conflict, split from {Islam doesn't condone terror]

[plenary]

I wouldn't worry. We're pretty good at the whole survival thing.

Yes, you're right... And what also helps, is that the Jews understand (many other nations aren't so astute), that if people are shouting that they want to kill the Jews and drive them out of their homes, that they actually want to and are going to try.....


Holocaust, Never Again.... And rightfully so....

 

[razeontherock]

possession does not make law

to disprove the inane and absurd notion that possession makes law.

It's a figure of speech, that possession is 9/10 of the law. Our Aussie Brother sometimes uses turns of phrase that are so totally foreign to me, I'm surprised to see him use this axiom. Anywhere I have lived, actual practice holds it to be true, which is sad.

You had a problem with another phrase, "if you can't bring Muhammad to the mountain, bring the mountain to Muhammad." Often such idioms aren't literal, and may have a meaning that escapes you. UK posters lose me often, w/ the simplest things There's no shame in asking for clarification, but try not to hold onto mis-communication, ok? (That particular one might as well say "there's more than one way to skin a cat.")

 

[FRM48]

Since we are on the subject of moral law or law in general,let talk about the owner of the land.The owner has the right to give the land to whoever he wants.Now since the owner is God,and he has brought the Jews back to land of their inheritance ,"Is it morally or legally right to take the land that He set aside for his people and give it to those who he hasn't chosen.Can you truly strip God of his absolute authority to parcel the land as he sees fit?Do you really want to go against God?If The Lord allows it to happen,"Can you tell me what will happen after the treaty is signed?Henry are you one who believes in the twelfth imam prophecy?

 

[PHenry42]

Since we are on the subject of moral law or law in general,let talk about the owner of the land.The owner has the right to give the land to whoever he wants.Now since the owner is God,and he has brought the Jews back to land of their inheritance ,"Is it morally or legally right to take the land that He set aside for his people and give it to those who he hasn't chosen.Can you truly strip God of his absolute authority to parcel the land as he sees fit?Do you really want to go against God?If The Lord allows it to happen,"Can you tell me what will happen after the treaty is signed?Henry are you one who believes in the twelfth imam prophecy?

Okay then, prove that it is, at present date 2011 AD, the will of God that the land being contested shall be the sole property of the Jews, and that all others in it can legitimately be subjected to dispossession and ethnic cleansing at the discretion of the Jews. Oh, and in case you thought so, the Bible doesn't count as proof.

Not that I see what is has to do with anything, but no, I don't put much stock in 12th Imams.

 

[b&wpac7]

Okay then, prove that it is, at present date 2011 AD, the will of God that the land being contested shall be the sole property of the Jews, and that all others in it can legitimately be subjected to dispossession and ethnic cleansing at the discretion of the Jews. Oh, and in case you thought so, the Bible doesn't count as proof.

Not that I see what is has to do with anything, but no, I don't put much stock in 12th Imams.

Ignoring the dispossession and ethnic clenching comments, I actually agree that we cannot use the Bible as any proof that Jewish people should own the land at this time.

 

[Montalban]

Not that I see what is has to do with anything, but no, I don't put much stock in 12th Imams.

What about the Mufti of Jerusalem who was planning with the Nazis to hand the Jews of Palestine over.

This is prior to the creation of Israel.

It's not Jews who had 'stolen lands'.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Since we are on the subject of moral law or law in general,let talk about the owner of the land.The owner has the right to give the land to whoever he wants.Now since the owner is God,and he has brought the Jews back to land of their inheritance ,"Is it morally or legally right to take the land that He set aside for his people and give it to those who he hasn't chosen.Can you truly strip God of his absolute authority to parcel the land as he sees fit?Do you really want to go against God?If The Lord allows it to happen,"Can you tell me what will happen after the treaty is signed?Henry are you one who believes in the twelfth imam prophecy?

Rather assumes everyone in the discussion agrees about who God is, who his chosen people are, and to whom he gave what, doesn't it?

 

[Supreme]

I think the Arab Israeli conflict is blown WAY out of proportion most of the time. I think the fact it gets more coverage than the real genocides in Sudan, in Burma and in Iraq is nothing short of worrying.

Don't get me wrong, the suffering of the Palestinian people IS an awful, horrific thing that should be condemned at every opportunity and resolved as soon as possible. But, well, however bad the Palestinians have it, there are millions more people on the planet who have it far worse.

 

[ks777]

I'm just going to leave this here... The Invention of Palestine - How we Swallow The Lie

 

[FRM48]

From the book,"Now They Call Me Infidel"(Why I Renounced Jihad") by Nonie Darwish

In school ,Jews were portrayed as devils,pigs,and an evil,occupying force.We were never told of the Jewish roots in the region.With tears running down their cheeks,older girls whom I admired would stand in front of the class and recite stirring poems pledging jihad,declaring their willingness to give up their lives for land,and promising to kill the Jewish enemies of God.The sight of these girls in tears had a very powerful effect on the rest of us children.In fact,we were all required to recite anti-Jewish poetry daily.After reciting the poetry,some said,"May God bless us with "SHAHADA".The word "SHAHID" means"MARTYR".It is the highest honor bestowed on a"MUSLIM"and absolutely guarantees entrance to heaven.

This is still in the Palestinian classrooms today.Also TV programs on Palestinian stations promoting the same things.Nice,"Jihad For Kid's",in my view it is Child Abuse,and UNGODLY.

 

[JJWhite]

It is the highest honor bestowed on a"MUSLIM"and absolutely guarantees entrance to heaven.

Some of the stuff that happens is very sad.

-----------

About the above comment:

Dying a martyr does not absolutely guarantee entrance into Paradise. If one's intention is wrong, it can be the cause of his entering Hellfire.

".....Then the one who was martyred will be brought forth and Allaah will say to him, ‘Why were you killed?’ He will say, ‘I was commanded to fight in Jihaad for Your sake, so I fought until I was killed.’ Allaah will say to him, ‘You have lied,’ and the angels will say to him, ‘You have lied.’ Allaah will say, ‘You wanted it to be said that so-and-so was courageous, and that is what was said.’” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) struck my knee and said, “O Abu Hurayrah, these three (the hadith mentions two other categories first) are the first of the creation of Allaah who will be dragged into the Fire on the Day of Resurrection.” (Tirmidhee)

Not quite sure if what's happening in Palestine qualifies as jihad technically or not??

 

[FRM48]

JJ, there is a point I was making with that excerpt,unless this is stopped there can be no peace in the Middle East.As long as those with their own agenda continue to destroy the minds of children with the idea that the Jews are somehow less than human,and that by strapping a bomb on yourself for the purpose of killing as many Jews as you can will get you to heaven,then there will never be a True peace between Jews and Palestinians.

 

[b&wpac7]

JJ, there is a point I was making with that excerpt,unless this is stopped their can be no peace in the Middle East.As long as those with their own agenda continue to destroy the minds of children with the idea that the Jews are somehow less than human,and that by strapping a bomb on yourself for the purpose of killing as many Jews as you can will get you to heaven,then there will never be a True peace between Jews and Palestinians.

I think in many ways the mutual hatred is certainly a big part of this issue. The big difference is that Israel is stronger, so it tries to protect itself from those that commit acts of terrorism.

The sad thing is that innocents get caught in the crossfire and have to suffer because others cannot just stop killing innocent people. I really know the big thing is to blame Israel, but if people in Mexico started firing rockets into Texas, and the Mexican leaders didn't put a stop to it, we'd have a 51st state.

 

[JJWhite]

JJ, there is a point I was making with that excerpt,unless this is stopped there can be no peace in the Middle East.As long as those with their own agenda continue to destroy the minds of children with the idea that the Jews are somehow less than human,and that by strapping a bomb on yourself for the purpose of killing as many Jews as you can will get you to heaven,then there will never be a True peace between Jews and Palestinians.

I'm with you on that.

 

[Montalban]

Some of the stuff that happens is very sad.

You're welcome to enter Christianity then

-----------

About the above comment:

Dying a martyr does not absolutely guarantee entrance into Paradise. If one's intention is wrong, it can be the cause of his entering Hellfire.

That's actually false. By defnition a martyr would be someone dying for the cause. It would by definition be someone who's done it correctly, and therefore they're assured to go to heaven.

".....Then the one who was martyred will be brought forth and Allaah will say to him, ‘Why were you killed?’ He will say, ‘I was commanded to fight in Jihaad for Your sake, so I fought until I was killed.’ Allaah will say to him, ‘You have lied,’ and the angels will say to him, ‘You have lied.’ Allaah will say, ‘You wanted it to be said that so-and-so was courageous, and that is what was said.’” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) struck my knee and said, “O Abu Hurayrah, these three (the hadith mentions two other categories first) are the first of the creation of Allaah who will be dragged into the Fire on the Day of Resurrection.” (Tirmidhee)

This is simply about a person who CLAIMED to have died for Al-lah, but didn't really. It's about people making false claims.

So therefore he's not a martyr, by definition, and therefore doesn't get into paradise. It's seen in context by the three different people making false claims

“When the Day of Resurrection comes, Allaah, may He be blessed and

exalted, will come down to judge between His slaves, and every nation will

be kneeling. The first ones to be called forth will be a man who learned the

Qur’aan by heart, a man who fought for the sake of Allaah, and a man who

had a lot of wealth. Allaah will say to the Qur’aan-reader, ‘Did I not teach

you that which I revealed to My Messenger?’ He will say, ‘Yes, O Lord.’ He

will say, ‘What did you do with that which I taught you?’ He will say, ‘I used

to read it night and day.’ Allaah will say to him, ‘You have lied,’ and the

angels will say to him, ‘You have lied.’ Allaah will say, ‘Rather you wanted it

to be said that So and so is a reader of Qur’aan, and that is what was said.’

Then the wealthy man will be brought forth, and Allaah will say to him, ‘Did

I not give you ample provision so that I did not leave you in need of

anybody?’ He will say, ‘Yes, O Lord.’ He will say, ‘What did you do with that

which I gave you?’ He will say, ‘I used to uphold the ties of kinship and give

in charity.’ Allaah will say to him, ‘You have lied,’ and the angels will say to

him, ‘You have lied.’ Allaah will say, ‘Rather you wanted it to be said that So

and so is generous, and that is what was said.’ Then the one who was killed

for the sake of Allaah will be brought forth and Allaah will say to him, ‘Why

were you killed?’ He will say, ‘I was commanded to fight in Jihaad for Your

sake, so I fought until I was killed.’ Allaah will say to him, ‘You have lied,’

and the angels will say to him, ‘You have lied.’ Allaah will say, ‘You wanted it

to be said that So and so was courageous, and that is what was said.’” Then

the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) struck

my knee and said, “O Abu Hurayrah, these three are the first of the creation

of Allaah who will be dragged into the Fire on the Day of Resurrection.”

(Narrated and classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, 2382; classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan, 408, and Ibn Khuzaymah, 2482).

The martyrs are five: the one who dies of the plague, the one who dies of a stomach disease, the one who drowns, the one who is killed by a falling wall and the martyr (who dies) for the sake of Allaah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2829) and Muslim (1914). According to a version narrated by Muslim (1915): “the one who drowns is a martyr.”
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on those who drowned in the Egyptian ferry, and offering the funeral prayer for them

Therefore it stands as true that a martyr will get into paradise! The only difference on this I've read is if that martyr is a woman, whether she'll get in. All male martyrs are assured entry into paradise.

 

[Montalban]

From the book,"Now They Call Me Infidel"(Why I Renounced Jihad") by Nonie Darwish

In school ,Jews were portrayed as devils,pigs,and an evil,occupying force.We were never told of the Jewish roots in the region.With tears running down their cheeks,older girls whom I admired would stand in front of the class and recite stirring poems pledging jihad,declaring their willingness to give up their lives for land,and promising to kill the Jewish enemies of God.The sight of these girls in tears had a very powerful effect on the rest of us children.In fact,we were all required to recite anti-Jewish poetry daily.After reciting the poetry,some said,"May God bless us with "SHAHADA".The word "SHAHID" means"MARTYR".It is the highest honor bestowed on a"MUSLIM"and absolutely guarantees entrance to heaven.

This is still in the Palestinian classrooms today.Also TV programs on Palestinian stations promoting the same things.Nice,"Jihad For Kid's",in my view it is Child Abuse,and UNGODLY.

It comes from the Koran which calls Jews names.

Moslems are taught to believe that their god sent messenger after messenger to the Jews who turned their backs on all, or corrupted their messages.

They are taught to despise the Jews - after-all you'd have to be pretty low to do this to their god's messengers time after time after time.

Jews are called deceivers.

Moslems are taught this as a basic truth.

That some of them exhibit a spark and tolerate Jews does not diminish this basic underlying anti-Semitism.

Then the Jews go and beat them. Not once, but several times.

Moslems are in a mental crisis by being beaten by the people they feel such contempt for.

 

[JJWhite]

You're welcome to enter Christianity then

That's actually false. By defnition a martyr would be someone dying for the cause. It would by definition be someone who's done it correctly, and therefore they're assured to go to heaven.

This is simply about a person who CLAIMED to have died for Al-lah, but didn't really. It's about people making false claims.


The martyrs are five: the one who dies of the plague, the one who dies of a stomach disease, the one who drowns, the one who is killed by a falling wall and the martyr (who dies) for the sake of Allaah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2829) and Muslim (1914). According to a version narrated by Muslim (1915): “the one who drowns is a martyr.”
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on those who drowned in the Egyptian ferry, and offering the funeral prayer for them

Therefore it stands as true that a martyr will get into paradise! The only difference on this I've read is if that martyr is a woman, whether she'll get in. All male martyrs are assured entry into paradise.

Yes, the long hadith is discussing the issue of sincerity and intention. I'm not sure if Palestinians fighting to reclaim land that they feel they deserve qualifies as a valid intention in order for it to be considered Jihad. Don't know.. maybe.. would have to check scholarly opinions.

There are different levels of martyrs.

Also, where are you getting the woman thing from? I HEARD that a woman who dies during childbirth is a martyr, but I don't know the evidence right now. Can try to look that up.

 

[JJWhite]

Here it is...

Islam Question and Answer - A woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr but she should be washed and the funeral prayer should be offered for her

And I think I'll pass on your Christianity offer.. LOL.

 

[JJWhite]

I'm not sure if Palestinians fighting to reclaim land that they feel they deserve qualifies as a valid intention in order for it to be considered Jihad. Don't know.. maybe.. would have to check scholarly opinions.

Looked that up too... what I'm seeing is that from the perspective of fighting against oppressions committed against them, I see several scholars considering it Jihad for the Palestinians.

I've always avoided anything to do with politics... don't know what I'm doing in this thread anyway. I hate politics.... always have. Ever since I was a little kid and my mom and uncle would argue over politics, and I would watch and think, 'How can they be so sure about that when they've never even met the people they're arguing about?'... I decided politics was not my thing.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, the long hadith is discussing the issue of sincerity and intention.

Absolutely.

Someone had said that to be assured to enter Paradise, you need to be a martyr.

You countered that this isn't so because you have to have 'good intent'

I countered that by virtue of not having good intent you can't be a martyr therefore you'd not be included in the statement

"Martyrs are assured a place in Paradise"

Your qualification makes no sense.

I'm not sure if Palestinians fighting to reclaim land that they feel they deserve qualifies as a valid intention in order for it to be considered Jihad. Don't know.. maybe.. would have to check scholarly opinions.

That's the issue.

The issue isn't a dispute over the statement "Martyrs are assured a place in Paradise" but "Are the actions of these people the actions of martyrs"

Your qualification goes more to the second point - which you weren't addressing.

As to whether they are or not, another person tried to argue that only defensive jihad is legal or moral

This was a misrepresentation to what constitutes 'defence' in Islam

There are different levels of martyrs.

Also, where are you getting the woman thing from? I HEARD that a woman who dies during childbirth is a martyr, but I don't know the evidence right now. Can try to look that up.

I am mistaken in how I phrased this.

I meant to say that a woman who is a 'suicide-bomber' is not assuredly a martyr and therefore not necessarily going to Paradise.

A man is more assured.