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What is our sinful nature?

Johnnz

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Many Christians believe in an inherited sinful nature, which continues as our 'old man', or 'flesh' or 'carnality'. But there are those who are rediscovering an older Christian understanding that our fallenness is best described in terms of separation and broken relationship rather than as some inherited 'infection'. Our humanity is now subject to death and we live from a long inheritance of living out of separation as a consequence of the Fall. But as new creations we now have a new nature and we are to live on that basis rather than from a basis of indwelling 'evil'.

It's very refreshing to live our lives from that rediscovered basis.

John
NZ
 

singpeace

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Many Christians believe in an inherited sinful nature, which continues as our 'old man', or 'flesh' or 'carnality'. But there are those who are rediscovering an older Christian understanding that our fallenness is best described in terms of separation and broken relationship rather than as some inherited 'infection'. Our humanity is now subject to death and we live from a long inheritance of living out of separation as a consequence of the Fall. But as new creations we now have a new nature and we are to live on that basis rather than from a basis of indwelling 'evil'.

It's very refreshing to live our lives from that rediscovered basis.

John
NZ



Romans 7:21-25 (Paul's confession)
21. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
22. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
23. but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
 
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Johnnz

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Those verses were my heritage too. But my reasons for changing my understanding were:

a) Recognising that the term 'flesh' used by Paul as in the verses you quoted do not refer to a moral category describing a resident 'evil nature', but a relational comparison for two periods of human history and life. All of life prior to Christ's resurrection was 'flesh', a lifestyle and value system not soundly based within God's principles. It is also true today for those who similarly do not follow Godly values. But at Pentecost, the 'last days' the age of the Spirit came to us and is now continued through the Church. When we become united with Jesus we no longer live 'after the flesh' but in the Spirit. (Rom 8:1-2)

b) An ongoing inner 'old nature' is a problem. In Paul's argument in Romans and elsewhere in the NT he regularly refers to our death, resurrection (raised with) and ascension as new creations ("seated with Christ"), not as patched up people. For us to have an ongoing living sinful nature (as opposed to having a mortal body subject to death - the wages of sin is death) then Christ must have not included that when we were buried and resurrected with him and has included our sinful nature in spite of His new creation of us. But, we are a new creation, not a patched up one, awaiting our release from our mortality at Christ's return.

John
NZ
 
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singpeace

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I agree we are a new creation; not a patched up one.

However, I disagree that Paul is referring to what he endured 'before' Christ.
(still you make a good point, and one I am considering)

The old man is interpreted as the former way of life, that of an unbeliever. In this sense, the Christian has two competing capacities within him—the old capacity to sin and the new capacity to resist sinning. The unbeliever has no such competition within; he does not have the capacity for godliness because he has only the sin nature. That’s not to say he cannot do “good works,” but his motivation for those works is always tainted by his sinfulness. In addition, he cannot resist sinning because he doesn’t have the capacity to not sin.

The believer, on the other hand, has the capacity for godliness because the Spirit of God lives within him or her. He still has the capacity for sin as well, but he now has the ability to resist sin and, more importantly, the desire to resist and to live godly.

14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

'am' = eimi in Greek = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.



17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

'dwelleth' = oikeō in Greek = to dwell (present tense)



21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

'present' = parakeimai in Greek = 1) to lie beside, to be near
2) to be present, at hand



25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

'flesh' = sarx in Greek = the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

'sin' = hamartia in Greek = to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
 
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Johnnz

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Hi,

The verses you quoted above are from an earlier section of Paul's argument in Romans. Romans is a very tightly argued letter in which Paul begins with the fall of man and develops the theme that Christ now completes the redemption of humanity and has undone what was lost in Eden. Thus, my points remain.

N T Wright[FONT=&quot][/FONT] sees the word baptism in Romans 6 as having reference to the Exodus. In the exodus from Egypt Israel was finally freed from slavery after passing through the Red Sea, which then closed and drowned (buried) the Egyptians. Later, after their years of wandering in the desert a new generation passed through the Jordan River in another enaction of baptism. The key point here is that baptism illustrates separation, death and a total break from the past. Christians are a community of people who, through Christ, have been delivered from the slavery and exile of the kingdom of darkness and have become members of the community of the Spirit. ‘Buried’, ‘new life’, ‘done away’, ‘raised’, ‘slavery to sin’, ‘slavery to righteousness’ are terms Paul uses in Romans.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT] N T Wright Paul A New Perspective. p138

Here is an extract from a Christian NT scholar that you may find worth considering.

Dr Mark Strom follows a similar line, from a different perspective. In this extract and its footnote he states:[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
All sin, Paul believed, is an individual's choice to break faith with God by inverting the Creator-creature relationship (Rom 1:18-32). Paul uniquely located the problem within a person's pretension to autonomy and the subsequent rupture in relationship. … God justifies the sinner and cancels his identity in Adam for a new identity in Christ. So flesh and spirit do not indicate philosophical or moral categories for Paul, but alternate identities in relationship. According to Paul one who is in Christ is correspondingly in the Spirit and a slave of righteousness. This is a given. He or she is not in the flesh (Rom 8:9). The reverse holds for those in Adam - they are in the flesh and slaves to sin and death.

His footnote to 8:9 amplifies his argument.

"Throughout Romans 6-8, the NIV persistently renders sarx as "sinful nature" and frequently supplies the phrase "controlled by" for ‘en’ and ‘kala’. It thus gives the impression that Paul says believers have two natures: a fleshly nature and a spiritual nature. This is particularly irritating and misleading in 8:9, where Paul simply says, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if the Spirit of God lives with you" (my translation). The NIV has "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you."

"Once again, in Romans 6:20, the NIV unhelpfully supplies "the control of," thus tilting the meaning toward cohabiting moral natures and away from the contrast Paul is making between identities based on Adam or Christ.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT] Dr Mark Strom Reframing Paul. Conversations in Grace and Community p94

We now belong to a new kingdom, God dwells with us by His Spirit, our bodies are His temple. We have the nature of our new parent, ‘Abba’ ‘Father’. That is our status. We are not some spiritually leaky, patched up, internally compromised being, always on the brink of offending a holy God. We are ‘born anew’, a ‘new creation’ transformed and energised by God’s Spirithttp://www.christianforums.com/#_edn1 God has not abandoned His original template for humanity. Jesus as the Last Adam confirms our restoration as human beings,

John
NZ
 
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Memukan

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Many Christians believe in an inherited sinful nature, which continues as our 'old man', or 'flesh' or 'carnality'. But there are those who are rediscovering an older Christian understanding that our fallenness is best described in terms of separation and broken relationship rather than as some inherited 'infection'. Our humanity is now subject to death and we live from a long inheritance of living out of separation as a consequence of the Fall. But as new creations we now have a new nature and we are to live on that basis rather than from a basis of indwelling 'evil'.

It's very refreshing to live our lives from that rediscovered basis.

John
NZ

Interesting, can you inform us where this rediscovery is ? The Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word ? What codex ? The name of the Theologian ? I believe in the separation because of the fall. Isaiah 59:2 But I also believe the imaginations of the heart are evil.That is, his heart is malignant. (strongs H.7451) As well as the sins of the father will visit his children,his childrens children to the 3rd and 4th generation.

Thanks,

Memukan
 
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