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The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

PilgrimToChrist

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I do have a difficult time in understanding a "mindset" that places more credibility on religious beliefs, dogmas, tradition, etc., than scripture.

How can you set the Church's teachings against Scripture? It all comes from the same God!

You are saying that everything we believe is true must be explicitly defined in Scripture. Yet Scripture says the exact opposite. So if you believe Scripture, you must believe the teachings of the Church which are not found explicitly in Scripture.

Is there anywhere in Scripture that says that everything which is true -- or even everything that is an integral part of Faith -- is explicitly defined in Scripture? Where do you get that idea? Apparently from outside Scripture because it's not in there. Thus, it proves itself a contradiction and therefore false.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Only things that pertain to Biblical things are in the Bible.

Okay... but where does it say that everything that pertains to "Biblical things" is contained within the Bible?

You are trying to separate "the Bible" from history and the rest of the Faith.
 
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Optimax

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There is a lot more evidence of the Divine origin and protection of the Church than that of me.

Do you place your eternity in trusting in your own opinions or in the Church established and sustained by Christ?

Your church cannot protect you. Psalms 91 can.

I place my trust in what scripture says about Eternal life.

Not tradition, not dogmas, not a religious organization nor the "church" you speak of.

Are you secure in your eternity?

No doubts?
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Question.

Since RC teaches that believing the dogma of the assumption is necessary for salvation, what do they say about the salvation of those who died before the dogma was born?

Would it be safe to say that RC teaches that only Mary is in heaven between the time of her assumption and the dogma defined?

It is necessary for salvation now because we are now explicitly bound to believe it.

Take another example, in the early Church, it was not a sin to miss Mass on Sundays. But, early on, the Church decided that Mass was so important that we are now bound to attend and if we skip Sunday Mass (that is, without sufficient reason, of course), we have committed a mortal sin and fall from Grace. Now, this is a man-made law and not a dogma but the same principle of binding applies. Does the Church bind us to attend Sunday and Holyday Mass because they are trying to get us to fall from Grace? Of course not, but rather they are giving us an order so that we can achieve a greater portion of Grace. If a commander never gave any orders, sure no one would be punished for insubordination but neither would anything get done; we could empty the prisons by eliminating all the laws but society would be much worse off.

We define dogmas formally in order to teach the Faith and help people grow in the Faith. If people choose to rebel against the God-given Faith or against God-given authority, they are subject to the consequences of their actions.

Jn 15:22 said:
If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Would it be better if Christ had never come because then people would not have sinned in rejecting Him? Of course not. The same is true with teaching the Faith, including defining dogmas -- whether it be the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, or the Assumption.


For example, St. Thomas Aquinas rejected the Immaculate Conception because he accepted the idea that conception and animation (ensoulment) occur at different times and thus she could not have been saved prior to gaining a soul. He also fell into the "one instant" camp -- that she was conceived in the state of Original Sin but was cleansed of it in the next instant of her existence after ensoulment. But no one could hold that position licitly after 1854 when her Immaculate Conception was defined and promulgated as dogma.

I believe there was a thread here a while ago (I'll let LLoJ find it -- he's good at that) that was something like "Was it a sin to not believe in the Trinity prior to Nicea?", that is, before the Trinity was proclaimed as a dogma (when Arianism ruled the Christian world).
 
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Optimax

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Okay... but where does it say that everything that pertains to "Biblical things" is contained within the Bible?

You are trying to separate "the Bible" from history and the rest of the Faith.

I think he is right.

Since the Bible is the Bible. Then anything that does not pertain to Biblical things cannot be in it. If it is not in the Bible it is not Biblical.

There is a relationship between Biblical things and the Bible.

Biblical things are in the Bible because they are Biblical things.

If it is not in the Bible it is a "Non Biblical" thing.
 
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BrendanMark

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The subjects under discussion between 318 and 381 were not, as has sometimes been alleged, those raised by Greek theology or philosophy and such as could only have been raised by a people thinking in Greek terms. It was not simply a quarrel about Greek ideas. In the fourth century there came to a head a crisis . . . which was not raised by either Arius or Athanasius. It was the problem of how to reconcile two factors which were part of the very fabric of Christianity: monotheism, and the worship of Jesus Christ as divine. Neither of these factors is specifically connected with Greek philosophy or thought; both arise directly from the earliest Christian tradition. Indeed . . . it was only by overcoming some tendencies in Greek philosophy which offered too easy an answer to the problem that a solution was reached. Greek philosophy and religion could readily accept a monotheism which included an hierarchically graded God and could easily accord a qualified divinity to the Son. Neither was in the end accepted by the church. But of course it would be absurd to deny that discussion and dispute between 318 and 381 were conducted largely in terms of Greek philosophy. The reason for this was, paradoxically, because the dispute was about the interpretation of the Bible. The theologians of the Christian Church were slowly driven to a realization that the deepest questions which face Christianity cannot be answered in purely biblical language, because the questions are about the meaning of biblical language itself. In the course of this search the Church was impelled reluctantly to form dogma. It was the first great and authentic example of the development of doctrine.
Hanson, R.P.C. – The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God [Baker 1988, 2005, p. xx-xxi] emphasis mine
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Your church cannot protect you. Psalms 91 can.

How can Ps 90/91 (I assume you are referring to "Qui habitat." and not "Bonum est confiteri.") protect me? If it is not read within the context of the living Church it is nothing more than a poem. I read that in the context of Compline, how do you read it?

If you don't read the Bible within the living context of the Church, you can come up with nothing more than your own personal opinions, you are essentially inventing your own religion -- which is why there can be 10,000 different Protestant sects that all "believe only the Bible" but none of them can agree among themselves. Clearly the dogma of the perpiscuity of Scripture (Reformed site chosen intentionally) is false.


I place my trust in what scripture says about Eternal life.

So do I. Scripture says Christ spilled His Precious Blood to purchase the Church and to obey the bishops and to beware of false teachers but to maintain the Apostolic faith which was given to the Church. Scripture records Christ as promising that He would be with the Church to the end of time and that She will never be overcome. Scripture also records several times that the Church is the Bride of Christ and the Ark of Salvation.

I'll stick to this Church. Relying on my own personal opinions about what Scripture says would leave me in the deluge.


Are you secure in your eternity?

No doubts?

Define. Do I have a moral certainty that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ? Absolutely. Do I know that I will die in a state of grace (what Baptists call "eternal security")? Of course not, that would be the sin of presumption, no one can know that (apart from any true special revelation, of course).
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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I think he is right.

Since the Bible is the Bible. Then anything that does not pertain to Biblical things cannot be in it. If it is not in the Bible it is not Biblical.

There is a relationship between Biblical things and the Bible.

Biblical things are in the Bible because they are Biblical things.

If it is not in the Bible it is a "Non Biblical" thing.

So then what is the meaning and purpose of the word "Biblical" in this context? What does it matter if something is not "Biblical" -- that is, not written about explicitly in the Bible? What are the ramification of your definitions of "Biblical"?

At least we have moved beyond, "Anything that is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible is false", which left me wondering how I am able to function in life...
 
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T

Thekla

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The subjects under discussion between 318 and 381 were not, as has sometimes been alleged, those raised by Greek theology or philosophy and such as could only have been raised by a people thinking in Greek terms. It was not simply a quarrel about Greek ideas. In the fourth century there came to a head a crisis . . . which was not raised by either Arius or Athanasius. It was the problem of how to reconcile two factors which were part of the very fabric of Christianity: monotheism, and the worship of Jesus Christ as divine. Neither of these factors is specifically connected with Greek philosophy or thought; both arise directly from the earliest Christian tradition. Indeed . . . it was only by overcoming some tendencies in Greek philosophy which offered too easy an answer to the problem that a solution was reached. Greek philosophy and religion could readily accept a monotheism which included an hierarchically graded God and could easily accord a qualified divinity to the Son. Neither was in the end accepted by the church. But of course it would be absurd to deny that discussion and dispute between 318 and 381 were conducted largely in terms of Greek philosophy. The reason for this was, paradoxically, because the dispute was about the interpretation of the Bible. The theologians of the Christian Church were slowly driven to a realization that the deepest questions which face Christianity cannot be answered in purely biblical language, because the questions are about the meaning of biblical language itself. In the course of this search the Church was impelled reluctantly to form dogma. It was the first great and authentic example of the development of doctrine.
Hanson, R.P.C. – The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God [Baker 1988, 2005, p. xx-xxi] emphasis mine

Thank-you for correcting a common misconception !

In fact, as the ECFs of this era were indeed familiar with Greek pagan philosophy, they were well poised to combat any undue influence it might have had on Christianity. (It is interesting to read some of the ECFs on the subject of pagan philosophy - not very complementary ;)) The precise language they use is commonly mistaken for the influence of philosophy -- instead, terminology was often "re-loaded" with Christian meaning (as was, for example, logos).

Much of Christian teaching was indeed repugnant to pagan philosophy.
 
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godisreal36

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John chapter 3 has more to say than any old dusty book the Vatican can drag from its old ancient shelves, there are so many books and shelves that some shelves are to high for many to even reach without a rickety old man made ladder.

What does Isaiah chapter 3 say? i really don't know, sounds interesting though.
 
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laconicstudent

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John chapter 3 has more to say than any old dusty book the Vatican can drag from its old ancient shelves, there are so many books and shelves that some shelves are to high for many to even reach without a rickety old man made ladder.

Amen, brother!

Are you trying to make that out to be a bad thing? On the contrary, you really are just reinforcing the RCC's authority by that. The irony.
 
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godisreal36

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I don't agree with the Vatican on some things but i don't put myself above them either. I said what i felt lead to, you figure it out. I know nothing else. God loves Catholics and all other Christians, and all other people i would think. We must love one another, its Gods will as far as i can see. God wills that all people be saved and i think it would be easier if we didn't help them stumble in anyway. Its all I know, sometimes i wish i knew nothing. That would be easier also.
 
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laconicstudent

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Looks like its time to go before truth turns into hate again over the Lords Name.

Jesus is my Master not the Pope or any other, paul had much wisdom about things and im outa here.

Jesus is also my master, but I submit to my diocesan bishop also as master, as a successor to the apostles and an icon of Christ within the Church. :wave:
 
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Dorothea

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Jesus is also my master, but I submit to my diocesan bishop also as master, as a successor to the apostles and an icon of Christ within the Church. :wave:
Well, it does say in the Bible to submit to our elders. :D
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Not that I noticed, Vladyka BENJAMIN seems like a very wise and loving bishop, and I was very happy I participated in the Liturgy when he visited.

image004.jpg


Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
 
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98cwitr

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^^^Haha...no. ;)

Jesus is also my master, but I submit to my diocesan bishop also as master, as a successor to the apostles and an icon of Christ within the Church. :wave:

Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

I know that's in the context of God vs money...but seems so applicable here too...
 
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