The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

[Sarcalogos Deus]

This is quite true, yet when it involves the resurrection of the Mother of the Christ, you'd think it'd be in there wouldn't you? Especially if the apostles were literally there to record it (allegedly). You don't find that though and it's not. It's all hearsay...and you can't spell heresy without hearsay.

*Smart alleck cap on*

Actually you can since there are no a's in heresy and hearsay is missing a "e" so you can't actually spell heresy with the letters in hearsay. You can spell "hersy" but not "heresy"

*Smart alleck cap off*

 

[98cwitr]

oooooo...you got me

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Catholic burial story of Mary reminds me of the Jewish burial story of Moses .

 

[bbbbbbb]

The problem with your statements is the assumption that Paul meant a physical, bodily death in Romans 6:23, rather than the eternal and spiritual consequences.

In fact, Romans 6 in itself confirms that the 'death' spoken of is of the spiritual, eternal nature: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It is not an either/or choice. When God told Adam and Eve that the day they ate of the tree they would die, either God was lying or was misinformed or actually meant what He said. On the day that they ate they did not die (physically) but did die (spiritually) so that their physical death followed as a result of their sin.

Scripture speaks of two deaths for people - a first death, which is physical and a second death, which is spiritual. For the believer Christ has endured that second death so that although we will experience the first death, we will not experience the second death.

All death is related to sin, whether it is physical death or spiritual death.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The Catholic burial story of Mary reminds me of the Jewish burial story of Moses .

And we all know what happened to Moses... nobody ever found his body... yet he appeared at the transfiguration on the mount with Elijah, who was assumed into heaven.

 

[Rhamiel]

There is scripture that confirms Enoch.

Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
KJV


If you can produce scripture that as clearly confirms that Mary was "taken" by God that would do a lot to convince.

it does not really fit in the Bible
it is not Gospel
it takes place after Acts of the Apostles
it is not used in any of Epistles... probably took place after most of those were written too

did God stop working after the time the Bible was written? are there no more miricales?

also to say you KNOW that Mary was not assumed into heaven is crazy, were you there? have you done an autopsy? or even more... do you know anyone who visited her grave and said she was not assumed into heaven?

 

[Optimax]

And we all know what happened to Moses... nobody ever found his body... yet he appeared at the transfiguration on the mount with Elijah, who was assumed into heaven.

There is a multitude of peoples bodies that have not been found and/or recorded.

None of them were with Moses and Elijah.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It is not an either/or choice. When God told Adam and Eve that the day they ate of the tree they would die, either God was lying or was misinformed or actually meant what He said. On the day that they ate they did not die (physically) but did die (spiritually) so that their physical death followed as a result of their sin.

Scripture speaks of two deaths for people - a first death, which is physical and a second death, which is spiritual. For the believer Christ has endured that second death so that although we will experience the first death, we will not experience the second death.

The second death is the eternal lake of fire, according to Apocalypse. I was unaware Jesus would be eternally burning in the lake of fire...

All death is related to sin, whether it is physical death or spiritual death.

Well yeah, that's why Mary would have inherited tainted physical human DNA that grows from a baby and is able to die, yet her soul remained free of the stain of sin. Even Jesus was able to die though his soul was immaculate.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The second death is the eternal lake of fire, according to Apocalypse. I was unaware Jesus would be eternally burning in the lake of fire...

Well yeah, that's why Mary would have inherited tainted physical human DNA that grows from a baby and is able to die, yet her soul remained free of the stain of sin. Even Jesus was able to die though his soul was immaculate.

The payment for our sins by Jesus Christ was not merely the physical suffering and agony He endured on the cross but the substutionary spiritual punishment that was due for our sins. His atonement was the equivalent to an eternity of suffering in the Lake of Fire. As an eternal being He alone could endure it in what might appear to us as a short time. Our concepts of time and eternity are partial, at the very best.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The payment for our sins by Jesus Christ was not merely the physical suffering and agony He endured on the cross but the substutionary spiritual punishment that was due for our sins. His atonement was the equivalent to an eternity of suffering in the Lake of Fire. As an eternal being He alone could endure it in what might appear to us as a short time. Our concepts of time and eternity are partial, at the very best.

Let's not get too far off topic here.

Jesus was spiritually immaculate yet able to die, how does that prevent Mary from being able to die if she were immaculately conceived?

 

[Optimax]

Let's not get too far off topic here.

Jesus was spiritually immaculate yet able to die, how does that prevent Mary from being able to be able to die if she were immaculately conceived?

If you are going to attempt to use these points as proof lets get some foundation for it.

Please explain what you believe made it possible for Jesus to die.


Please explain how being "immaculately conceived" prevented Mary from dying.

Without scriptural explanation of the "mechanics" of how each were, the theories do not hold up.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Please explain what you believe made it possible for Jesus to die.

He was a human born of flesh descended from Adam. "Made like unto his brethren."

Please explain how being "immaculately conceived" prevented Mary from dying.

I believe Mary died, and was resurrected. I don't believe her immaculate conception prevented her from dying.

Without scriptural explanation of the "mechanics" of how each were, the theories do not hold up.

I believe Moses was assumed bodily into heaven after his death, too.

 

[Optimax]

He was a human born of flesh descended from Adam. "Made like unto his brethren."
I believe Mary died, and was resurrected. I don't believe her immaculate conception prevented her from dying.

I believe Moses was assumed bodily into heaven after his death, too.[/quote

I understand the above is what you believe and I respect that.

However the question was not what you believed about it but how those things could happen.

Jesus was God made flesh. How could God die.
Please explain what you believe made it possible for Jesus to die.

Mary was conceived by the words that God spoke, which the angel spoke to her when she received them. How would that affect Mary in a way that would keep her from physical death. I do not see a connection is why I am asking you what it is and how it works.

Please explain how being "immaculately conceived" prevented Mary from dying.

A thought out belief should have thought out processes behind it.
Without scriptural explanation of the "mechanics" of how each were, the theories do not hold up.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you are going to attempt to use these points as proof lets get some foundation for it.

Please explain what you believe made it possible for Jesus to die.


Please explain how being "immaculately conceived" prevented Mary from dying.

Without scriptural explanation of the "mechanics" of how each were, the theories do not hold up.

I apologize for posting in shorthand here, assuming a Catholic audience.

The New Testament writers go to some length to explain how it was that the sinless Son of God died and the meaning of His death and, more importantly, His resurrection. In particular, Paul spends a great deal of Romans talking about this topic. The bottom line is that the death of Jesus Christ was unique in that He chose to die as a substituionary sacrifice for the sins of mankind and was raised on the third day as proof of the acceptance by God of His sacrifice. If you wish I can provide biblical citations.

Part of the Christological saga rests of His innate sinlessness. Unlike Adam, the first man, who fell into sin, Jesus Christ, the second Adam (man) redeemed mankind by his substitutionary sacrifice as a perfect (sinless) offering to God. From the Fall in the Garden of Eden where God had proclaimed that they would die if they ate of the fruit, the theology of sin and death was developed so that the Bible consistently presented the belief that the wages of sin is death. Thus sin and death are inextricably bound together.

If some individual were to be found without sin (typified by Enoch and Elijah in the Old Testament) then they would be translated (not assumed) to heaven.

When one encounters the Catholic dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, one is faced with a theology which is at odds with that of the Bible. First, the dogma does not state that Mary was similar to or identical to either Enoch or Elijah although there are certain similarities. Although the latter were translated to heaven, Mary was assumed (however one may wish to define these words). If, as in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was, and is, utterly without sin, then, using a biblical theology, she would not have experienced death - unless she did so in the sense that Jesus Christ did so, which would assuredly place her as co-redemptrix with Jesus Christ, completing an unfinished work of atonement begun on Calvary. If this was not the case, however, then God was unjust to exact the penalty of death upon a sinless individual.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

If you are going to attempt to use these points as proof lets get some foundation for it.

Please explain what you believe made it possible for Jesus to die.


Please explain how being "immaculately conceived" prevented Mary from dying.

Without scriptural explanation of the "mechanics" of how each were, the theories do not hold up.

I see a key problem with this... scriptural explanation.

 

[ivebeenshown]

However the question was not what you believed about it but how those things could happen.

Jesus was God made flesh. How could God die.
Please explain what you believe made it possible for Jesus to die.

I'm sincerely sorry, Optimax, but I am just absolutely positive that I answered this for you in the very post you quoted.

Please explain how being "immaculately conceived" prevented Mary from dying.

Again, I apologize, but I do not believe her immaculate conception prevented her from dying, therefore I feel no obligation to answer this question.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm sincerely sorry, Optimax, but I am just absolutely positive that I answered this for you in the very post you quoted.

Again, I apologize, but I do not believe her immaculate conception prevented her from dying, therefore I feel no obligation to answer this question.

Then do not feel obligated to answer

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying/apoqnhskousin <599> (5719),
so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.
[Genesis 5:5]

Genesis 5:5 And they are becoming all of days of Adam which he lived, nine of hundreds year and-thirty year and he is dying/apeqanen #599
[1 corin 15:22].

 

[Optimax]

I apologize for posting in shorthand here, assuming a Catholic audience.


The New Testament writers go to some length to explain how it was that the sinless Son of God died and the meaning of His death and, more importantly, His resurrection. In particular, Paul spends a great deal of Romans talking about this topic. The bottom line is that the death of Jesus Christ was unique in that He chose to die as a substituionary sacrifice for the sins of mankind and was raised on the third day as proof of the acceptance by God of His sacrifice. If you wish I can provide biblical citations.

Part of the Christological saga rests of His innate sinlessness. Unlike Adam, the first man, who fell into sin, Jesus Christ, the second Adam (man) redeemed mankind by his substitutionary sacrifice as a perfect (sinless) offering to God. From the Fall in the Garden of Eden where God had proclaimed that they would die if they ate of the fruit, the theology of sin and death was developed so that the Bible consistently presented the belief that the wages of sin is death. Thus sin and death are inextricably bound together.

Yes i realize that and I am familiar with it. However the truth of His substitutionary sacrifice does not explain how the sinless Son of God could die. He had never committed sin therefore the law of sin and death could not affect him.

Yet, Jesus, God in the flesh, having never sinned died on the cross.

How was that possible?

If some individual were to be found without sin (typified by Enoch and Elijah in the Old Testament) then they would be translated (not assumed) to heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were men born of Adam thereby having the sin problem within them that demanded Jesus' death to redeem men. The Bible says it is appointed tom man once to die.

Enoch and Elijah were taken for a purpose that God had foreordained before the foundation of the earth. Scripture does not say that plainly, however the Book of Revelation gives the very likely answer to what that purpose was.

When one encounters the Catholic dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, one is faced with a theology which is at odds with that of the Bible. First, the dogma does not state that Mary was similar to or identical to either Enoch or Elijah although there are certain similarities. Although the latter were translated to heaven, Mary was assumed (however one may wish to define these words). If, as in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was, and is, utterly without sin, then, using a biblical theology, she would not have experienced death - unless she did so in the sense that Jesus Christ did so, which would assuredly place her as co-redemptrix with Jesus Christ, completing an unfinished work of atonement begun on Calvary. If this was not the case, however, then God was unjust to exact the penalty of death upon a sinless individual.

That "dogma" just is not scriptural, not based on scriptural evidence but on tradition of your church which is not admissible to a "jury" of different theologies.

 

[Optimax]

I'm sincerely sorry, Optimax, but I am just absolutely positive that I answered this for you in the very post you quoted.

Again, I apologize, but I do not believe her immaculate conception prevented her from dying, therefore I feel no obligation to answer this question.

That is certainly your prerogative.

Would you accept "that is what I believe" from another poster with different view than yours as proof that they are right?

 

[ivebeenshown]

That "dogma" just is not scriptural, not based on scriptural evidence but on tradition of your church which is not admissible to a "jury" of different theologies.

Well, I don't believe the scriptures are the *only word of God*, for instance I believe very much so that God talked to Enoch about a lot of things, and also Adam and Eve, even though those thing are not in scripture. Yet they are not beliefs which are at odds with the Gospel.

That is certainly your prerogative.

Would you accept "that is what I believe" from another poster with different view than yours as proof that they are right?

Maybe, maybe not. But you asked me two questions, one of which I quoted scripture from, and the other one which was not even applicable to me, which is sort of like asking me "Why do you believe Allah and Islam are true" when I don't even believe that. (And Paul and them didn't bother to cite perfectly and word-for-word with verse numbers, so why should I...)