The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

[PilgrimToChrist]

Believing anything outside of the Bible makes a lot of room for idolatry.

So you don't believe that anything exists or has happened that was not explicitly written about in the Bible?

So then you must not believe that Mary died, right?

If that be the case why believe anything in the Bible?

Oh yeah, here's why: Psalm 12:6-7, Mark 13:31, Proverbs 30:5-6

By reason of the misery of the needy, and the groans of the poor, now will I arise, saith the Lord. I win set him in safety; I will deal confidently in his regard. The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried by the fire, purged from the earth refined seven times.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away.

Every word of God is fire tried: he is a buckler to them that hope in him. Add not any thing to his words, lest thou be reproved, and found a liar

So which one of these verses says that everything in the Word of God is written about in the Scriptures?

Also, are you saying we should believe the Bible because the Bible says to believe the Bible?

Then why not the Qur'an? Is that why so many Evangelicals are converting to Islam?

This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah

The Qur'an says that there is no doubt about the Qur'an, so then why not trust it?

I'd like to see you "historical facts" as well...just because the NT canon was formed doesn't mean the content of the 400 year old writings changed. For our sake I hope not.

The contents of the writings were in the teachings of the Apostles, which have been passed down to us. Why should we believe that they mentioned everything in their writings?

 

[Dark_Lite]

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

I fail to see where that supports Sola Scriptura. It says that all Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, and training in righteousness. I'm not sure how you translate that to "supreme on matters of faith and mortals."

Hope that's good enough for you...you being a "christian" and all.

This subtle (or not so subtle, as was the case earlier) flaming is getting old. Address the topic and not the poster. And while you're at it, perhaps you would like to address my post about the historical evidences and why Sola Scriptura doesn't fit with them?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Or am I wrong, do you consider the Bible to be true? Is it infallible and inerrant?

Of course we believe it to be -- the Church has taught us that. She has also taught us other things, which are not explicitly referred to in the Bible, such as the Assumption. You are saying we should believe the Church when She teaches us that the Bible is infallible and inspired and not believe Her when She teaches us that Mary was raised from the dead and taken into Heaven. Why?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus That depends on whether the RCs consider you a Christian or not

http://www.christianforums.com/t6982.../#post44368331
Are Protestants Christians?

thus the quotes

Ahhh....silly me then

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

We can also see a hint of evidence in His writings a bit later when He just slips in the fact of Her Assumption in a very diplomatic yet cautious way where two of the three possible ends, it explicitly states that Her Body is in Heaven. He does so here as He writes to His Greek faithful about the end of Mary's earthly life.

"Say she died a natural death. In that case she fell asleep in glory, and departed in purity and received the crown of her virginity. Or say she was slain with the sword according to Simeon's prophecy. There her glory is with the martyrs, and she through Whom the Divine Light Shone Upon the world is in the place of bliss, with Her Sacred Body. Or say she left this world without dying for God can do what He wills. Then she was simply transferred to eternal glory." (Haer. lxxix, 11).

Ah, thank you. I was taking it for granted that what "Standing Up" said was true:

Epiphanius in 377ad said, we don't know what happened to Mary.

So that's not exactly what he says in the quote.

 

[Dorothea]

she decayed, she was in adam.

Were you there at her dormition? No? Then how would you know her body decayed, which it wouldn't anyway because she is His Mother. He wouldn't have her repose like that. The truth is the Apostles were there except Thomas. He was elsewhere (probably in Asia somewhere where he preached the Gospel), and by the time he got back to give reverence to her, her body was not in the tomb. It was empty. Those who believe in God and have the utmost faith would say He took His Mother up to heaven with Him. Those with limited faith may think somebody took her body like the Jews believed happened with Jesus' body.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

The basis of my accusations are still related to the topic at hand. How in the world does the RCC come up with some made up, false doctrine that the virgin Mary was resurrected and ascended to heaven. There is no basis to this whatsoever. What is the RCC going to come up with next? Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are actually real?

"made up", "false doctrine", "no basis", Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. Wow. All this bile because it's not explicitly recorded in the Bible?

What about the American Revolution? Is that "made up", "false doctrine" with "no basis" and comparable to "Santa Claus and the Easter bunny" because it's not written about in the Bible?

Since Mary's death is not recorded in the Bible your argument from absence would say that she never died, right?

Clearly the Boston Massacre never happened because it isn't in the Bible!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

she decayed, she was in adam.

I suppose she was greater than the RCs first pope, Peter

http://www.christianforums.com/t7327962-6/
Bones of Peter

 

[Dorothea]

"made up", "false doctrine", "no basis", Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. Wow. All this bile because it's not explicitly recorded in the Bible?

What about the American Revolution? Is that "made up", "false doctrine" with "no basis" and comparable to "Santa Claus and the Easter bunny" because it's not written about in the Bible?

Since Mary's death is not recorded in the Bible your argument from absence would say that she never died, right?

Yep. You get the information from the history of the person's life, just like any other historical document written on a person. The lives of the early Christians are no exception.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Actually, since we don't have the originals, we have to make due with copies. Although, the thousands of manuscripts are fairly unified, there are discrepancies such as the ending of the Gospel according to Mark, the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) and the woman caught in adultery do NOT occur in the earlier Greek manuscripts. So yes, there are changes.

Brian

The Fundamentalist Sola/o Scriptura belief (which, of course, is itself not actually found in Scripture and so is self-defeating) depends on a clear, explicit, unified body of text. That is, it would depend on being something more like the Qur'an (which the Muslims claim God provided because the Old and New Testaments were corrupted), this is what a small minority of people who hold that God fixed all the variations in the Scripture texts by creating the "King James Version" (yes, some people actually believe this).

 

[AveMaria_45]

she decayed, she was in adam.

thats sick. whats wrong with you !!!!!

 

[Optimax]

thats sick. whats wrong with you !!!!!

Perhaps he is saying that Mary being a person like everyone descended from Adam as we all did.

We die as Adam did.
Unless we are alive when He comes to the clouds!

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

You forgot the most important part.

Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it!

That is what Mary instructed.

Listen to Mary!
Jesus said;

John 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV
This is how to be born again.

Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yes, part of following Jesus is being baptized but that is only the beginning.

Do you think we don't Baptize or something?

 

[Optimax]

Yes, part of following Jesus is being baptized but that is only the beginning.

Do you think we don't Baptize or something?

I know you do!

I have posted in a lot of the threads!

Jesus is not talking about baptism in water to be born again. I remember the thread that was discussed and ignored in.

Rom 10 9-10 explains how to be born again or saved and mentions nothing about water or baptism.

Baptism in water is important.

Water Baptism is not the Baptism that saves.

Ya know what? In order to understand the use of the word Baptism in the Bible it helps to separate the idea of water from the words "baptism, baptized, and baptisms.

Almost impossible when you have been taught the opposite.

 

[AveMaria_45]

Perhaps he is saying that Mary being a person like everyone descended from Adam as we all did.

We die as Adam did.
Unless we are alive when He comes to the clouds!

this place is whacked. in another thread theres a guy hollerin that he is sinless and sent by God, and some of you guys are patting him on the back. but here people saying Mary decayed and sinned and on and on. you guys are totally backwards. I guess i should have read thru some of this stuff before i jumped in

 

[Optimax]

this place is whacked. in another thread theres a guy hollerin that he is sinless and sent by God, and some of you guys are patting him on the back. but here people saying Mary decayed and sinned and on and on. you guys are totally backwards. I guess i should have read thru some of this stuff before i jumped in

Yes! The truth can be quite a shock when one gets out of their own circle(not including the guy hollering as truth).

Agree there is a lot of wackiness.

Take it as a learning opportunity to study out from scripture what you believe and see if it holds up to your own scrutiny.

You will become stronger either way.

.

 

[AveMaria_45]

you know what, i posted my lessons here but i didn't see one person even try to read them. read it and say no thanx and thats fine, but these guys just talk and never listen. if you were in school and all you did was talk and never listenede what kind of grades would you get?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Then have we found that God has not kept His Word? Psalms 12:6-7

Or we have disproved your identification of the Bible with the Word of God. This does not mean that the Bible is not inspired, but what you are claiming is that the Bible, and only the Bible, contains the entirety of God's public revelation. You've made a list of books you claim to be inspired (a subset of those that we claim to be inspired) and that you are an infallible interpreter of the Bible so as to determine what God's revelation is from the Bible and only the Bible.

So we have these claims of yours, now we're looking for proof that everything in Divine Revelation is written about in the Bible.

 

[Optimax]

you know what, i posted my lessons here but i didn't see one person even try to read them. read it and say no thanx and thats fine, but these guys just talk and never listen. if you were in school and all you did was talk and never listenede what kind of grades would you get?

Well try to understand that many, well even most that post in these threads are pretty well set in what they believe.

Most are also aware of the basics of what others believe that are not agreed with.

So when you post your lessons not many if any will look either out of lack of interest in seeing something they do not agree with cause they know enough of what is there to start with.

It is exciting to you and that is good. You will be fine if you put Jesus first in your life and follow Him.

None of us have it all right even though on this forum we act like we do.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

no one hates Mary

You wouldn't know that from many threads on here. How many Baptists do you know have a love and devotion to Our Lady?

we hate the fact that many Catholics seemingly view her as a deity and worship her as such.

You clearly don't understand the Catholic teaching and practice.

Devotion to Mary [and not fully to the Lord Jesus] is a house divided....

Again, you clearly don't understand.

If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.