Mary cannot be Queen. (2)

[Zeek]

Montalban asked Zazal:-

So why are you continuing in sin?

Because I am a sinner saved by grace.

I am not deliberately continuing in sin as such, but because I am still bound by this earthly body which awaits its redemption, I have a battle going on and a choice....to walk by the Spirit, or to walk according to the flesh....if I was perfect, I would not sin, but I am not perfect and therefore I sin. Sometimes I do things I shouldn't do, at other times I don't do things I believe I should do. The flesh, the world and the Devil, all play a part is demonstrating to me my less than perfect humanity....but I thank G-d that through Jesus I have forgiveness of my sins, and can confess them and continue my walk with Him, clean and spotless because of the righteousness I have in Him...working out sanctification and desiring holiness.


...next question!

 

[Montalban]

What 'choice' do you have now, when you're already saved?

 

[Zeek]

What 'choice' do you have now, when you're already saved?

I don't really get the impression you're interested in my reply....but for what it's worth:-

I/we as Believers in the L-rd, always have a minute by minute choice to walk in the spirit or walk in the flesh...the only person who was led by the Spirit 100% of the time was Jesus.

If you are somehow trying to work out how I can claim to be saved, and yet still sin, then you need look no further than the example of fallible men in the Bible....who knew G-d was their salvation, and yet were aware of their sinfulness.

I do not live my life in the fear that I may do something that will disqualify myself from my eternal heritage...I have a hope that will not disappoint, knowing that one day I will be with the L-rd....and the fore-taste of my destiny has been placed in my heart through the unction of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Montalban]

I don't really get the impression you're interested in my reply....but for what it's worth:-

From asking you a question based on your reply to me you get that impression?

You're the one who started talking about choices regarding sin, but if you're already saved, then you have no choice to walk with him - unless you're talking only of choice prior to being saved.

I/we as Believers in the L-rd, always have a minute by minute choice to walk in the spirit or walk in the flesh...the only person who was led by the Spirit 100% of the time was Jesus.

If you are somehow trying to work out how I can claim to be saved, and yet still sin, then you need look no further than the example of fallible men in the Bible....who knew G-d was their salvation, and yet were aware of their sinfulness.

But it wouldn't matter. Once you're saved it doesn't matter if you sin.

I do not live my life in the fear that I may do something that will disqualify myself from my eternal heritage...I have a hope that will not disappoint, knowing that one day I will be with the L-rd....and the fore-taste of my destiny has been placed in my heart through the unction of the Holy Ghost.

So you could if you want go out and kill someone

 

[Zeek]

From asking you a question based on your reply to me you get that impression?

My dear chum, I was looking at the icon of your tired face, and presumed from your quick fire questions, that you didn't really want meaningful dialogue...forgive my presumption.

You're the one who started talking about choices regarding sin, but if you're already saved, then you have no choice to walk with him - unless you're talking only of choice prior to being saved.

I have to say you have a really strange concept of salvation and what it means to walk in faith.

But it wouldn't matter. Once you're saved it doesn't matter if you sin.

So you could if you want go out and kill someone

Now I don't know if your reasoning comes from extreme naivity, poorly communicated doctrine or whether you just don't understand what it means to be saved.

Paul addresses the question/rationale you pose, and again re-iterates that the liberty/freedom we have in Jesus the Messiah is not an excuse to go out and sin...whether that is casting a lustful glance at a person, or in your more extreme example, taking another person's life.

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

You seem to have difficulty understanding the grace of G-d and what Jesus has accomplished for us through His death and ressurection...unless you are playing the Devil's Advocate, and squeezing to see what comes out of me...which is fine.

Do you have a problem that I testify to my salvation, and acknowledge that I have the confidence in the Saviour that I am saved? Does it run contrary to what you believe or have been taught? I only ask this, because the assumptions you seem to make on the nature of redemption are a little foreign to what I believe and experience.

 

[WarriorAngel]

My dear chum, I was looking at the icon of your tired face, and presumed from your quick fire questions, that you didn't really want meaningful dialogue...forgive my presumption.




I have to say you have a really strange concept of salvation and what it means to walk in faith.






Now I don't know if your reasoning comes from extreme naivity, poorly communicated doctrine or whether you just don't understand what it means to be saved.

Paul addresses the question/rationale you pose, and again re-iterates that the liberty/freedom we have in Jesus the Messiah is not an excuse to go out and sin...whether that is casting a lustful glance at a person, or in your more extreme example, taking another person's life.

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

You seem to have difficulty understanding the grace of G-d and what Jesus has accomplished for us through His death and ressurection...unless you are playing the Devil's Advocate, and squeezing to see what comes out of me...which is fine.

Do you have a problem that I testify to my salvation, and acknowledge that I have the confidence in the Saviour that I am saved? Does it run contrary to what you believe or have been taught? I only ask this, because the assumptions you seem to make on the nature of redemption are a little foreign to what I believe and experience.

O the problem of grammatical differences.
Its improper English to consider oneszelf having done something that has not been yet accomplished.
We are able to be saved - through Christ - which i have no doubt the Koine Greek inferred.
When people generally say 'Once saved, always saved' they mean literally it's a done deal... that Christ did the work and they need to do nothing but believe.
But i already made athread, thanks for replying BTW.

I can understand where you come from, and i dont think you hold the position once saved always saved, i could be wrong though.

But for the norm to say OSAS - they mean to say they have no works, and have no need to worry about sinning or to what degree of sin they may even enjoy since His Precious Blood covered them....
Which is wrong to imply - unless St John was off his gourd when he said do not pray for sins unto death, but you may pray for sins not unto death.
Sins unto death means hell. For the second death in spiritual terms is hell.

Being we are told to work out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING the best advice is - to do just that - and keeping in mind that we may commit sins unto death - we must tremble as we work out our salvation.

Etc etc etc [as per my thread i linked previously]

 

[Montalban]

I have to say you have a really strange concept of salvation and what it means to walk in faith.

I would say that it's 'strange' to have a belief system only going back to Martin Luther.

Now I don't know if your reasoning comes from extreme naivity, poorly communicated doctrine or whether you just don't understand what it means to be saved.

If you're already saved then you can potentially go out and murder someone, because you're already saved. It doesn't matter. God doesn't care what you do.

Paul addresses the question/rationale you pose, and again re-iterates that the liberty/freedom we have in Jesus the Messiah is not an excuse to go out and sin...whether that is casting a lustful glance at a person, or in your more extreme example, taking another person's life.

Yes, but he had a different reason for this. The 'once saved' theory came about with Luther, not Paul

Your 'liberty' is based on what? (or lack of liberty?)

You seem to have difficulty understanding the grace of G-d and what Jesus has accomplished for us through His death and ressurection...unless you are playing the Devil's Advocate, and squeezing to see what comes out of me...which is fine.

Most of your post is telling me about how I don't understand it.

Do you have a problem that I testify to my salvation, and acknowledge that I have the confidence in the Saviour that I am saved? Does it run contrary to what you believe or have been taught? I only ask this, because the assumptions you seem to make on the nature of redemption are a little foreign to what I believe and experience.

Yes. Because I don't believe God would have a system that says "I don't care what you do"

In point of fact when he separates the sheep from the goats its directly related to what people did. If you read it, you'll see someone being judged because he didn't visit Jesus in prison, or feed him and he asks where did he see Jesus needing food

 

[Zeek]

O the problem of grammatical differences.
Its improper English to consider oneszelf having done something that has not been yet accomplished.
We are able to be saved - through Christ - which i have no doubt the Koine Greek inferred.
When people generally say 'Once saved, always saved' they mean literally it's a done deal... that Christ did the work and they need to do nothing but believe.
But i already made athread, thanks for replying BTW.

No worries.

I think when people say OSAS they are really stating that they cannot do a thing to add to their salvation, it has all been done through Jesus, through whose blood they have literally been 'birthed' into the Kingdom of G-d. The implication is that G-d is faithful, He has done it, and that no man can undo what He has declared.

This is in strong contrast to the fearful uncertainty with which some Believers express their salvation...but it is foolishness to believe it gives a license to sin with impunity....for surely a tree will be known by its fruit.

I can understand where you come from, and i dont think you hold the position once saved always saved, i could be wrong though.

But for the norm to say OSAS - they mean to say they have no works, and have no need to worry about sinning or to what degree of sin they may even enjoy since His Precious Blood covered them....
Which is wrong to imply - unless St John was off his gourd when he said do not pray for sins unto death, but you may pray for sins not unto death.
Sins unto death means hell. For the second death in spiritual terms is hell.

Being we are told to work out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING the best advice is - to do just that - and keeping in mind that we may commit sins unto death - we must tremble as we work out our salvation.

Etc etc etc [as per my thread i linked previously]

Actually I believe salvation occurs the moment a person believes, and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in their heart...I am not talking about lip-service or religious appearance....but those Sheep the L-rd has called, that will never be taken from Him.

I never see G-d as looming over my life in such a way that I have constant fear and trembling, and I don't believe that is the thrust of that Scripture. I was fortunate in having a loving father, and can relate to the fear I had of displeasing him, yet knowing he was the boss and I had to tow the line, or I would not like the consequences....but any punishments were soon forgotten in the light of the relationship that I had with him, and the love and acceptance I felt....how much more this is amplified with our perfect Heavenly father.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

I have to say you have a really strange concept of salvation and what it means to walk in faith.
​

I would say that it's 'strange' to have a belief system only going back to Martin Luther.

Odd because....I don't give Luther a second glance.

Originally Posted by Zazal

Now I don't know if your reasoning comes from extreme naivity, poorly communicated doctrine or whether you just don't understand what it means to be saved.
​

If you're already saved then you can potentially go out and murder someone, because you're already saved. It doesn't matter. God doesn't care what you do.

If you're saved you will not go and murder someone...and G-d cares deeply about how we live our lives.

Originally Posted by Zazal

Paul addresses the question/rationale you pose, and again re-iterates that the liberty/freedom we have in Jesus the Messiah is not an excuse to go out and sin...whether that is casting a lustful glance at a person, or in your more extreme example, taking another person's life.
​

Yes, but he had a different reason for this. The 'once saved' theory came about with Luther, not Paul

Your 'liberty' is based on what? (or lack of liberty?)

You have a thing about Luther and his theories, I don't. My liberty is based on the same as your liberty or any other Believers liberty and is the freedom to choose to walk in the spirit...no one who is not born again has this liberty.

Originally Posted by Zazal

You seem to have difficulty understanding the grace of G-d and what Jesus has accomplished for us through His death and ressurection...unless you are playing the Devil's Advocate, and squeezing to see what comes out of me...which is fine.
​

Most of your post is telling me about how I don't understand it.

Well it was my observation....you seemed to keep demonstrating that it was ok to sin if one actually believed one was already saved.

Originally Posted by Zazal

Do you have a problem that I testify to my salvation, and acknowledge that I have the confidence in the Saviour that I am saved? Does it run contrary to what you believe or have been taught? I only ask this, because the assumptions you seem to make on the nature of redemption are a little foreign to what I believe and experience.
​

Yes. Because I don't believe God would have a system that says "I don't care what you do"

In point of fact when he separates the sheep from the goats its directly related to what people did. If you read it, you'll see someone being judged because he didn't visit Jesus in prison, or feed him and he asks where did he see Jesus needing food

That is merely your assumption...you equate knowing you are saved with license and insincerity, and some sort of polluted grace and understanding...I have been trying to show you that it isn't the case...but at the same time we all without exception continue to sin from time to time in thought, word and deed.

Ps....can you tell me how to reply so that what you have said and I have said comes up, without me having to cut and paste, as it is a bit of a minefield for me at the moment. Thanks.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No worries.

I think when people say OSAS they are really stating that they cannot do a thing to add to their salvation, it has all been done through Jesus, through whose blood they have literally been 'birthed' into the Kingdom of G-d. The implication is that G-d is faithful, He has done it, and that no man can undo what He has declared.

They cannot save themselves, its true and because of His sacrifice and resurrection, all haVE THE ABILITY TO BE SAVED.
[rats cap lock there for a second]

Anyway - its the ability they themselves did not cause, but still, we have to work and persevere.
Because scriptures state we can indeed taste the gifts of the Holy Spirit and turn away...again crucifying the Lord.

Its not a completed process until our judgment.
Saved - means completion.
And not that we are saved by Christ's atonement for the world that is the problem - but its taken too mean each individual who says they believe are finished with the process - as i have seen these things said over the many years i have been here.

This is in strong contrast to the fearful uncertainty with which some Believers express their salvation...but it is foolishness to believe it gives a license to sin with impunity....for surely a tree will be known by its fruit.

Pride is a close friend to absolute certainty in our own cooperation with His precepts.

This is why we must not assume we do not have works,or we need not work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and we have already finished a process.
satan is always willing to push into despair, sins, doubt... so we must be fearful of our own weaknesses...
Truthfully, i am greatly appreciative of Christ's established Church - which has gone no where - still stands, still the beacon of Christian Light - that has the sacraments that infuse graces and gives us absolvance that lifts sins off our shoulders - knowing and feeling God forgave.

Actually I believe salvation occurs the moment a person believes, and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in their heart...I am not talking about lip-service or religious appearance....but those Sheep the L-rd has called, that will never be taken from Him.

Well, as i said - we work out our salvation - that is - we are not saved nor have salvation until we have been judged.
Until then, we have hope in the salvation Christ made possible.
Run the race - means we continue to work on it...
we as a whole - Christianity - are saved through Christ's life, death and resurrection. But individually, we must work on it.
We must persevere in the hope and fear the loss of His promises if we choose sin.

I never see G-d as looming over my life in such a way that I have constant fear and trembling, and I don't believe that is the thrust of that Scripture. I was fortunate in having a loving father, and can relate to the fear I had of displeasing him, yet knowing he was the boss and I had to tow the line, or I would not like the consequences....but any punishments were soon forgotten in the light of the relationship that I had with him, and the love and acceptance I felt....how much more this is amplified with our perfect Heavenly father.

Thats all well and good, but let's not forget the importance of Christ's words when He said to guoge out one's eyes, He was giving us an example of what todays world probably deems acceptable sin, can cause us to go to hell.
Looking with lust in todays standards is norm...but to God is non negotiable.

Yes we can fall, remember His own chosen friend who knew Him, fell
Judas is simply an example to all humans that we might know Christ, that doesnt mean we personally are acting in the manner that saves us.

 

[Zeek]

Hey W.A ....Loads here I want to come back on....no time just now though.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

No worries.

I think when people say OSAS they are really stating that they cannot do a thing to add to their salvation, it has all been done through Jesus, through whose blood they have literally been 'birthed' into the Kingdom of G-d. The implication is that G-d is faithful, He has done it, and that no man can undo what He has declared.
​

They cannot save themselves, its true and because of His sacrifice and resurrection, all haVE THE ABILITY TO BE SAVED.

Anyway - its the ability they themselves did not cause, but still, we have to work and persevere.
Because scriptures state we can indeed taste the gifts of the Holy Spirit and turn away...again crucifying the Lord.

Ok...let me use different terminology. Have you been 'born again'...and are you sure or not sure about it?

Its not a completed process until our judgment.
Saved - means completion.
And not that we are saved by Christ's atonement for the world that is the problem - but its taken too mean each individual who says they believe are finished with the process - as i have seen these things said over the many years i have been here.

So when one is 'born again' or 'birthed into the Kingdom of G-d' it is something that is not completed until judgment?

Zazal said....
This is in strong contrast to the fearful uncertainty with which some Believers express their salvation...but it is foolishness to believe it gives a license to sin with impunity....for surely a tree will be known by its fruit.

Pride is a close friend to absolute certainty in our own cooperation with His precepts.

It sounds as if in this instance.... doubt is praised above faith, and uncertainty better commended than full assurance.

This is why we must not assume we do not have works,or we need not work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and we have already finished a process.
satan is always willing to push into despair, sins, doubt... so we must be fearful of our own weaknesses...

You are again equating belief in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, with being dangerous, leading to a contemptuous familiarity that seeks to pursue sinful acts, secure in the knowledge that they are saved, and free from any necessity to pursue godliness and the works that accompany salvation.

As I said before, the fruit of a persons life gives testimony to the state of their heart...works that we do, and the way we live don't maintain our salvation, they demonstrate that G-d is at work in us.

Truthfully, i am greatly appreciative of Christ's established Church - which has gone no where - still stands, still the beacon of Christian Light - that has the sacraments that infuse graces and gives us absolvance that lifts sins off our shoulders - knowing and feeling God forgave.

The L-rds established Church as you put it, is neither an edifice nor a collective organization...it is the Body of Messiah. In other words, it is everyone around the world who has made Him their L-rd and Saviour, regardless of the traditions they grow into.

Actually I believe salvation occurs the moment a person believes, and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in their heart...I am not talking about lip-service or religious appearance....but those Sheep the L-rd has called, that will never be taken from Him.

Well, as i said - we work out our salvation - that is - we are not saved nor have salvation until we have been judged.
Until then, we have hope in the salvation Christ made possible.
Run the race - means we continue to work on it...
we as a whole - Christianity - are saved through Christ's life, death and resurrection. But individually, we must work on it.
We must persevere in the hope and fear the loss of His promises if we choose sin.

So when you sin...do you feel your salvation is at stake?

I never see G-d as looming over my life in such a way that I have constant fear and trembling, and I don't believe that is the thrust of that Scripture. I was fortunate in having a loving father, and can relate to the fear I had of displeasing him, yet knowing he was the boss and I had to tow the line, or I would not like the consequences....but any punishments were soon forgotten in the light of the relationship that I had with him, and the love and acceptance I felt....how much more this is amplified with our perfect Heavenly father.

Thats all well and good, but let's not forget the importance of Christ's words when He said to guoge out one's eyes, He was giving us an example of what todays world probably deems acceptable sin, can cause us to go to hell.
Looking with lust in todays standards is norm...but to God is non negotiable.

You have a tendancy my friend to look at the most negative aspects of Scriptural teaching....somewhat out of context, and without weighing up the thrust of what is being said and the grammatical structure used to make an important point.

If we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh...it is as simple and uncomplicated as that. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Yes we can fall, remember His own chosen friend who knew Him, fell
Judas is simply an example to all humans that we might know Christ, that doesnt mean we personally are acting in the manner that saves us.

Yes devils know and tremble....but we like Paul can have strong confidence that He who has begun a good work in us, will complete it.

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul seems remarkably upbeat to me...utterly convinced that G-d will see Him through to the end.

 

[Montalban]

Odd because....I don't give Luther a second glance.

It doesn't matter. You can live in the USA without being aware of Thomas Jefferson.

If you're saved you will not go and murder someone...and G-d cares deeply about how we live our lives.

That's not evidenced by the people here who claim that they're saved and go on sinning.

You have a thing about Luther and his theories, I don't. My liberty is based on the same as your liberty or any other Believers liberty and is the freedom to choose to walk in the spirit...no one who is not born again has this liberty.

What freedom? Once you reach a point of saving no matter what you do, the choice has been made

Well it was my observation....you seemed to keep demonstrating that it was ok to sin if one actually believed one was already saved.

Why is it not okay to continue sinning? - you're not unsaved because of it

That is merely your assumption...you equate knowing you are saved with license and insincerity, and some sort of polluted grace and understanding...I have been trying to show you that it isn't the case...but at the same time we all without exception continue to sin from time to time in thought, word and deed.

Which undermines one of your previous points.
Here it is again...

If you're saved you will not go and murder someone...and G-d cares deeply about how we live our lives.

You say that you both wouldn't commit a sin, and that you will continue to sin.

 

[Zeek]

Which undermines one of your previous points.
Here it is again...

Originally Posted by Zazal

If you're saved you will not go and murder someone...and G-d cares deeply about how we live our lives.
​

You say that you both wouldn't commit a sin, and that you will continue to sin.

I will just concentrate on one thing, as you really don't seem to have any concept of what I am trying to communicate.

For a start you are twisting my words.

I have not said a person will not commit a sin....I have said a person who is saved will not go and commit murder...and I mean that as a general rule....but we all without exception continue to sin at various times in our life, even on a daily or weekly basis...unless you know something that I don't?

You seem to have a weird gnostic understanding about what I believe, as though once one comes to the knowledge they are saved, that's it, they have their free ticket to Heaven, and can now do what they like with impunity.

I have laboured to demonstrate that it is not like that at all...unless one is believing some other Gospel....maybe there are people like that, but they are kidding themselves, because the whole point of what James says, is that righteous works will be a natural outcome of the transformation a person undergoes when they are born again....surely this is not so hard to understand? By their fruit you will know them.

Are you born again, or are you uncertain of your standing?

How do you know you will one day be accepted by G-d?

 

[Montalban]

I will just concentrate on one thing, as you really don't seem to have any concept of what I am trying to communicate.

For a start you are twisting my words.

I get that a lot, especially from people arguing all things at once.

I have not said a person will not commit a sin....I have said a person who is saved will not go and commit murder...

What's the difference to you between...?

"He will not sin"
and
"He will not commit this particular sin"

Do you have a list of particular sins he will no longer commit?

and I mean that as a general rule....but we all without exception
continue to sin at various times in our life, even on a daily or weekly basis...unless you know something that I don't?

What's it matter if you sin?

You seem to have a weird gnostic understanding about what I believe, as though once one comes to the knowledge they are saved, that's it, they have their free ticket to Heaven, and can now do what they like with impunity.

Not at all. I'm simply trying to get you guys think about the silliness of arguing that sin doesn't matter

I have laboured to demonstrate that it is not like that at all...unless one is believing some other Gospel

No. It's just an assumption of yours that the Gospel means what you think it does.

 

[Montalban]

Sin doesn't matter once your saved. Why should it? You're not 'extra saved'.

Some might think you continue to grow/are transformed after being saved. What too? You're already saved. There's no Saved+

 

[Zeek]

Montalban...I will give it one more go, after that I will presume you are being deliberately obtuse for your own reasons/amusement.

You did not reply to my last two questions, so in the fond hope that you might, here they are again:-

1.Are you born again, or are you uncertain of your standing?

2.How do you know you will one day be accepted by G-d?

I have never said or implied that sin doesn't matter after you are saved, that is entirely down to your own reasoning....what on earth do you imagine salvation is, if it doesn't incorporate 'being saved' and you can quote that in the Greek present aorist tense. Do you think the people that were added to the assembly of Believers in the first few chapters of Acts were not saved....Peter preached, "be saved from this corrupt generation" and thousands responded.

Being saved doesn't preclude that you will not sin...but if you do sin, provision has been made because we have an advocate with the Father, through the righteous ministrations of Jesus, our Great High Priest. If a person sets out to deliberately sin because he thinks he has been saved, and nothing can touch him....he would be aptly demonstrating that he has not been saved, and has no understanding at all...besides he would be excluded from the Body.

 

[Montalban]

Montalban...I will give it one more go, after that I will presume you are being deliberately obtuse for your own reasons/amusement.

You presume wrong.

You did not reply to my last two questions, so in the fond hope that you might, here they are again:-

1.Are you born again, or are you uncertain of your standing?

I'd already answered this when Sunlover asked me, then StandingUp.

I don't know what my status is

2.How do you know you will one day be accepted by G-d?

By following the way

I have never said or implied that sin doesn't matter after you are saved, that is entirely down to your own reasoning....

You've not shown how it does matter. You're not any less saved

what on earth do you imagine salvation is,

The whole thing might be described by the analogy that I am an athlete in training. I do spiritual exercises as part of my training, avoiding certain foods perhaps as part of a special diet, etc.

if it doesn't incorporate 'being saved' and you can quote that in the Greek present aorist tense.

Perhaps I believe that 'being saved' is at the end of the game, not half way through

Do you think the people that were added to the assembly of Believers in the first few chapters of Acts were not saved....Peter preached, "be saved from this corrupt generation" and thousands responded.

And did they then stop, or did Paul for instance urge them to unity, etc.? Where's Paul write to a church and say "You're saved, that's all from me! Bye!"

Being saved doesn't preclude that you will not sin...but if you do sin, provision has been made because we have an advocate with the Father, through the righteous ministrations of Jesus, our Great High Priest.

What is the effect of sin, after you're saved? That might help you think about whether it matters or not. I've been asking a bit about if it makes you any less saved, but you don't seem to have an answer for that... or perhaps you missed it

If a person sets out to deliberately sin because he thinks he has been saved, and nothing can touch him....he would be aptly demonstrating that he has not been saved,

Do you think that anything you do can make you less saved? So you've never deliberately sinned? All the sins you've done since being sinned are accidental? How do you take this out of the back of your mind when sinning, when surely you must know nothing can touch you.

Where does the Bible make this distinction, anyway?

 

[Zeek]

Ok...forgive my presumption brother, it is just difficult to follow your thinking and your questions from time to time, and speaking in threads can be difficult because you can't look into a persons eyes.

You could have made my work easier by indulging me and giving me an apt reply to my questions, even if you had already answered similar things to someone else....so now I will run off and read exactly what has been said, and then come back later to continue the discussion. In Messiah. Zazal.

 

[WarriorAngel]

To be born again is regeneration through Baptism.
We are born into Christ's death and resurrection.

Being born again does not mean we pronounce we believe, and we have completed our tasks.

Is this where you are going?