Grace & Truth

[mkgal1]

Because wouldnt it be unrighteous to be "consumed" I suppose meaning in the mind since its not in an action ..therefore you would be purified in the mind as well i.e "not" consumed?

Love

Dallas

Yes...I believe so. We can only be "consumed" by one thing at a time. If it is something unrighteous we are consumed by.....then that is contrary to God and HIS righteousness.

Brian Welch...former member of Korn, described his addictions to leave in an instant upon receiving and understanding God's love. He was consumed by love and it flowed out of him, and resulted in a life change.

Here is his story...this is about 8 minutes long...but, I believe it's worth it to hear from someone who has "been there"

YouTube - I am Second® - Brian Welch

 

[FaithPrevails]

God's kingdom is righeousness.....someone that is characterized by any of those sins listed (which is not an exhaustive list....IMO) is choosing to live in the flesh, and that is contrary to the Spirit.

1 John 1:9 has a promise....

[/i]

To me, that says that our confession and willingness to follow after God's ways will rescue us from that damnation. But, we have to be willing to do the battle. (Just to be clear....our salvation doesn't rely on works...but, there is fruit of our faith).

I believe it is meaning someone that can be characterized by drunkenness--not an occasional over indulgence.

I disagree that an alchoholic can never be expected to reach the point of not being "consumed" by their addiction. To me...that is contrary to what 1 John says....it reads' ALL unrighteousness."

I agree, that at the very least, they are imprisoned in their mind by their addiction. I believe that God provides restoration on earth...not just in heaven, though.

RE: the bolded parts. I am starting to understand more clearly where you are coming from now.

While these things may seem contrary to what we believe about God delivering us from sin, there are plenty of things we don't fully understand - regardless of how diligently we seek it's explanation in the Bible. I won't get off on a tangent, but to me, the affliction of addiction falls in the same category as mental illness. What rational/good reason does God have for those who suffer from depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Or for those who are physically disabled? Some things are simply bigger than our ability to comprehend, IMO.

Yes...I believe so. We can only be "consumed" by one thing at a time. If it is something unrighteous we are consumed by.....then that is contrary to God and HIS righteousness.

Brian Welch...former member of Korn, described his addictions to leave in an instant upon receiving and understanding God's love. He was consumed by love and it flowed out of him, and resulted in a life change.

We can only be consumed by one thing at a time. But, that's just it. For someone who is so consumed by their addiction, it isn't always as instantaneous and, more importantly, often involves relapses. We need to have compassion for that aspect of addiction and recovery, IMO.

My friend in recovery that I mentioned earlier in the thread lost a friend of hers (she met in recovery) to suicide. The girl just couldn't overcome the addicition, no matter how hard she tried. She left behind two children. If she was able to think clearly and not be ruled by the addiction, I would like to think that she wouldn't have been out doing the things she did so she could get high and then ultimately take her life b/c of the downward spiral she was on. My reaction to her situation and untimely death can either be compassion or condemnation. I choose compassion - and I try to choose compassion for anyone who struggles to walk away from sin.

 

[dallasapple]

The girl just couldn't overcome the addicition, no matter how hard she tried.

This is what I do not believe..I do not believe she "couldnt" I believe she gave up trying.

And to be frank..I believe its dangerous with all due respect..to be stating such things as some sort of fact as it pertains to addiction that some litterally just "cant' overcome it NO MATTER how hard they try .

And I hardly think its condemnation to not feed into an addicts mind ..that its possilbe they CANT EVER overcome their addiction and use examples of those who tried really hard and just flat out couldnt therefore committed suicide.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Well, to me it seems to deny the power of God, because He is the one who promises us peace and deliverance. So, if a person can't stop, then it becomes God's fault, you know?

 

[pobodysnerfect]

Well, to me it seems to deny the power of God, because He is the one who promises us peace and deliverance. So, if a person can't stop, then it becomes God's fault, you know?

God promises peace and grace, but I am not sure He just promises deliverance as a blanket rule. Look at Paul. Three times he asked God to deliver him from the thorn in his flesh, but God said no. He *did* tell him that His grace was sufficient for him, however. That is how I see this topic. God's grace is sufficient for them to trust, but that it will be a struggle, a battle and a lifelong fight. Just like for Paul. Did he deny the power of God to share what he did? I don't bleive so..it was shared so that others might find hope in his struggle, and to give them encouragement that they are not alone in their struggles IMO.

 

[pobodysnerfect]

My friend in recovery that I mentioned earlier in the thread lost a friend of hers (she met in recovery) to suicide. The girl just couldn't overcome the addicition, no matter how hard she tried. She left behind two children. If she was able to think clearly and not be ruled by the addiction, I would like to think that she wouldn't have been out doing the things she did so she could get high and then ultimately take her life b/c of the downward spiral she was on. My reaction to her situation and untimely death can either be compassion or condemnation. I choose compassion - and I try to choose compassion for anyone who struggles to walk away from sin.

me too...because the God's honest truth is that we are all *one* choice away from slipping into sin. The thing is? We tend to put sins in ranking order, but God does not. I am grateful for His compassion when I have a day filled with struggles not to turn to food for comfort instead of Him, which is the sin of idolatry btw, and so I feel I must show compassion for those whose sins seem "bigger" "uglier" and "more unlovely" than my own.

 

[dallasapple]

me too...because the God's honest truth is that we are all *one* choice away from slipping into sin. The thing is? We tend to put sins in ranking order, but God does not. I am grateful for His compassion when I have a day filled with struggles not to turn to food for comfort instead of Him, which is the sin of idolatry btw, and so I feel I must show compassion for those whose sins seem "bigger" "uglier" and "more unlovely" than my own.

But no one is trying to tell you that no matter how hard you try that you just "cant" not turn to the food..and that you will never not be 'consumed" with a food addiction.

And I seriously dont understand how it is "lack of compassion" to tell someone that they CAN do all things through Christ who strengthens them.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Also. no one is saying that God's forgiveness doesn't await us when we come to Him, confessing our sins, and asking for His forgiveness. But His power to cleanse and renew our minds is real. If a person believes they are hopeless, which is what the addictive state entails, then are they not denying the power of God to make them clean? I understand feeling hopeless without Christ, but with Him, yes, all things are possible.

 

[mkgal1]

God promises peace and grace, but I am not sure He just promises deliverance as a blanket rule. Look at Paul. Three times he asked God to deliver him from the thorn in his flesh, but God said no. He *did* tell him that His grace was sufficient for him, however. That is how I see this topic. God's grace is sufficient for them to trust, but that it will be a struggle, a battle and a lifelong fight. Just like for Paul. Did he deny the power of God to share what he did? I don't bleive so..it was shared so that others might find hope in his struggle, and to give them encouragement that they are not alone in their struggles IMO.

Deliverance from physical afflictions is all together different than deliverance from sin. What Paul's "thorn in his flesh" was, was a physical affliction....not sin.

 

[mkgal1]

We need to have compassion for that aspect of addiction and recovery, IMO.

My reaction to her situation and untimely death can either be compassion or condemnation. I choose compassion - and I try to choose compassion for anyone who struggles to walk away from sin.

I think that is the point, though.....that it isn't ABOUT condemnation (for there is no condemnation for those in Christ).......it is about wishing for people to realize they ARE free...or CAN be free from those habitual sins. That God has the power...they need to surrender to HIS love and strength...and HE has a better life for them...one that includes hope...not a life-long imprisonment.

 

[dallasapple]

Also FP..you gave the opinion that addictions are a form of mental illness and compared it to bi/polar,schitzophrenia,depression..

I just do not agree..at least not with a blanket comparison..Many addictions start out as experimenting..or to fit in ..or even for instance in the case say of prescription pain killers out a of physcial need to relieve pain ..and then the person becomes dependent on the drug.and often times psycologically as well..in fact some people may use in the case of alcohol or other chemicals to self medicate for depression or bi-polar..

I've never heard of anyone with bi-polar or schtitzophrenia or in many cases of depression that did anything to contribute to the onset of that mental disorder or to feed it ..to keep it going.

I know one thing for sure ..I wouldnt say a schitzophrenic who for example acts out in a destructive way has "sinned" in that behavior..because they have done nothing to bring on their delusions.The same with specifically a bi-polar type 1 in a mania stage can due to no action on thier own become extremely delusional.These are conditions that even in the case a crime is committed they can be aquitted by being found not of sound mind.They can also be found not safe for the general public and put in a psychiatric ward for an indefinate amount of time.

To the contrary for example ..a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol..who uses then gets behind the wheel of a car and injures someone in the process..they can not plea insanity due to addiction.

 

[dallasapple]

Deliverance from physical afflictions is all together different than deliverance from sin. What Paul's "thorn in his flesh" was, was a physical affliction....not sin.

I agree..I dont like the way this is turning to comparing addiction to physcal illness including some mental illnesses in which the person 'litterally" has no control .If we compare them then either we have to call them sinners as well for their afflictions..or stop calling people with addictions sinners in their behavior.Because with out the "menatl illness" of addiction they would not act that way.IOW we are back around to "they cant help it"..

Full circle.

 

[mkgal1]

Also FP..you gave the opinion that addictions are a form of mental illness and compared it to bi/polar,schitzophrenia,depression..

I just do not agree..at least not with a blanket comparison..Many addictions start out as experimenting..or to fit in ..or even for instance in the case say of prescription pain killers out a of physcial need to relieve pain ..and then the person becomes dependent on the drug.and often times psycologically as well..in fact some people may use in the case of alcohol or other chemicals to self medicate for depression or bi-polar..

I've never heard of anyone with bi-polar or schtitzophrenia or in many cases of depression that did anything to contribute to the onset of that mental disorder or to feed it ..to keep it going.

I know one thing for sure ..I wouldnt say a schitzophrenic who for example acts out in a destructive way has "sinned" in that behavior..because they have done nothing to bring on their delusions.The same with specifically a bi-polar type 1 in a mania stage can due to no action on thier own become extremely delusional.These are conditions that even in the case a crime is committed they can be aquitted by being found not of sound mind.They can also be found not safe for the general public and put in a psychiatric ward for an indefinate amount of time.

To the contrary for example ..a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol..who uses then gets behind the wheel of a car and injures someone in the process..they can not plea insanity due to addiction.

I agree. Mental illness is a whole different animal all together....you cannot put mental illness into the same category as habitual sin. The list in Galations is pretty descriptive:

adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like. (drug abuse falls under "socery"...as the Greek word is pharmakeia--the source of our word, "pharmaceutical"...drugs are inferred. )

 

[dallasapple]

I agree. Mental illness is a whole different animal all together....you cannot put mental illness into the same category as habitual sin. The list in Galations is pretty descriptive:

adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like. (drug abuse falls under "socery"...as the Greek word is pharmakeia--the source of our word, "pharmaceutical"...drugs are inferred. )

Well Im saying if we are to put them in the same category ...then people with mental illness(such as bi/polar/schitzpphrenia/depression) have fallen into habitual sin by being afflicted with those disorders.So we would be saying a person for example with bi/polar type 1 in an acute stage of mania who is "clincally" paranoid and having delusions who attacks someone physically is in the same category as someone who deliberately goes out and seeks some acid to get high on knowing it will cause them to halucinate and under that influence attacks someone.

 

[FaithPrevails]

God promises peace and grace, but I am not sure He just promises deliverance as a blanket rule. Look at Paul. Three times he asked God to deliver him from the thorn in his flesh, but God said no. He *did* tell him that His grace was sufficient for him, however. That is how I see this topic. God's grace is sufficient for them to trust, but that it will be a struggle, a battle and a lifelong fight. Just like for Paul. Did he deny the power of God to share what he did? I don't bleive so..it was shared so that others might find hope in his struggle, and to give them encouragement that they are not alone in their struggles IMO.

me too...because the God's honest truth is that we are all *one* choice away from slipping into sin. The thing is? We tend to put sins in ranking order, but God does not. I am grateful for His compassion when I have a day filled with struggles not to turn to food for comfort instead of Him, which is the sin of idolatry btw, and so I feel I must show compassion for those whose sins seem "bigger" "uglier" and "more unlovely" than my own.

 

[FaithPrevails]

But no one is trying to tell you that no matter how hard you try that you just "cant" not turn to the food..and that you will never not be 'consumed" with a food addiction.

And I seriously dont understand how it is "lack of compassion" to tell someone that they CAN do all things through Christ who strengthens them.

I'm not saying people can't - I firmly believe we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. But, not everyone is strong enough to overcome and find hope in that scripture. They are ruled by doubt, fear, hopelessness, etc. That is the part that I feel needs the compassion. I'm sure there are countless people who would like to recover from whatever rules them, but they simply can't find the strength. How many people struggle with God's promise that when we are weak, He is strong?

It is one thing to encourage them to find the strength they need to overcome in God. It's quite another to be frustrated/angry with them when they fail to do so. JMHO

 

[FaithPrevails]

Also. no one is saying that God's forgiveness doesn't await us when we come to Him, confessing our sins, and asking for His forgiveness. But His power to cleanse and renew our minds is real. If a person believes they are hopeless, which is what the addictive state entails, then are they not denying the power of God to make them clean? I understand feeling hopeless without Christ, but with Him, yes, all things are possible.

I found a good article on the psychology of addiction (here) and think these two statements speak the best to your comment.

Addiction is an extreme dependence and can cause people to lose sense of reality as people become cripple without the substance they are addicted to.

Using addictive substances stimulate and release the pleasure inducing neurotransmitters in the brain and the dependence on this feeling of pleasure leads to more such pleasure seeking behaviour and this can spiral out of control and doesn't remain within the control of the individual who then is completely controlled by his addiction rather than the other way round. Withdrawal or abstinence symptoms of an addictive substance could include anxiety, depression, craving, irritability, restlessness or even thoughts of suicide with fatal consequences. Craving, irritability, depression, anxiety are all psychological withdrawal symptoms of addiction although closely related to the physical withdrawal symptoms. So addiction is largely in the mind and if a person wants, he or she can overcome this extreme dependence on an activity or a substance through self control and with better insight into his condition.

I bolded the portion that is in agreement with your stance...and I agree with it, too. However, I will reiterate - plenty of people suffering with addictions would love to be free of it. It's just not always as simple as walking away from it. They may lack willpower or faith or both. Unless someone has ever struggled with a mental illness or addiction to something, a person may not fully understand that, though, and have unrealistic expectations for what recovery looks like - or the ability to even begin recovery, for that matter. To me, we should pray harder for our brothers and sisters who struggle rather than be frustrated with them that they struggle to overcome/recover.

What I'm NOT saying is that this is a "get out of recovery free" card for them. Struggling may make it harder for them and may require more compassion/patience on the part of their support system. But, firm and gentle guidance is better than anger and guilt/shame at helping push them along the path to recovery. They are already dealing with their own guilt/shame - or not dealing with it as the case may be, and using the addiction to avoid it.

 

[FaithPrevails]

I think that is the point, though.....that it isn't ABOUT condemnation (for there is no condemnation for those in Christ).......it is about wishing for people to realize they ARE free...or CAN be free from those habitual sins. That God has the power...they need to surrender to HIS love and strength...and HE has a better life for them...one that includes hope...not a life-long imprisonment.

But, the reaction to those who struggle to believe that message is what I am reading as condemnation. Knowing something and embracing it/putting it into effect in our lives can often be two very different things.

So, what do you believe is the best way to approach a person who struggles to receive the message you stated above? In other words - what does grace look like in their case? Because we can't just have grace for those who succeed in overcoming sin.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Also FP..you gave the opinion that addictions are a form of mental illness and compared it to bi/polar,schitzophrenia,depression..

I just do not agree..at least not with a blanket comparison..Many addictions start out as experimenting..or to fit in ..or even for instance in the case say of prescription pain killers out a of physcial need to relieve pain ..and then the person becomes dependent on the drug.and often times psycologically as well..in fact some people may use in the case of alcohol or other chemicals to self medicate for depression or bi-polar..

I've never heard of anyone with bi-polar or schtitzophrenia or in many cases of depression that did anything to contribute to the onset of that mental disorder or to feed it ..to keep it going.

I know one thing for sure ..I wouldnt say a schitzophrenic who for example acts out in a destructive way has "sinned" in that behavior..because they have done nothing to bring on their delusions.The same with specifically a bi-polar type 1 in a mania stage can due to no action on thier own become extremely delusional.These are conditions that even in the case a crime is committed they can be aquitted by being found not of sound mind.They can also be found not safe for the general public and put in a psychiatric ward for an indefinate amount of time.

To the contrary for example ..a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol..who uses then gets behind the wheel of a car and injures someone in the process..they can not plea insanity due to addiction.

In the same article I cited just above, this statement is made. I think it explains the correlation well.

People who develop addiction are more prone to mental illnesses as addiction has been related to mood or affective disorders, to neurotic illnesses and obsessive disorders, to anxiety disorders and many other psychological problems. Addiction is largely akin to compulsion or the need to repeat any particular behaviour in an abnormal dependent manner and addiction like compulsion is an abnormal dependence. Addicts are obsessed with the substance or objects or activity that they are addicted to and show an abnormal dependence on the substance or activity. Individuals with mood disorders or people prone to frequent depression are prone to addiction as any addictive substance or drug or even activity such as sex that gives short term pleasure can cause the addict to return to this activity or substance again and again so that the depression is forgotten for a while. This need for short term pleasure leads to repeated pleasure seeking behaviour and thus creates addiction.

 

[FaithPrevails]

I personally know one person who is diagnosed schizophrenic, am related to two people with bi-polar disorder, and my mom, uncle and I all suffer from various degrees of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Out of all of the people listed, my uncle and I are the only two who have not struggled with addiction to a drug/drug-like substance. My mom was so badly addicted to cigarettes that she went into a severe depression when she tried to stop smoking when she was pregnant with me. When she finally kicked the addiction, it took her two years to do it.

I don't think it's coincidence.