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Do Baptists appear to be intellectually challenged baboons...?

MichaelKelley

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The home in which I nearly starved to death was foreclosed upon. I did not have a car to be repossessed, but all of my good clothes were stolen by burglars. Does this make me qualified to teach Genesis? No, of course it does not. Do the thousands of hours that I have spent studying Genesis make me qualified to teach it? No, it does not. The academic literature on Genesis is enormous and extremely technical, and a good understanding of it requires not only a thorough knowledge of Hebrew, but also a good knowledge of the other ancient oriental languages in which literature pertinent to the interpretation of Genesis is written. God has raised up a number of very fine scholars of Genesis, but I am most certainly not one of them.

Since most of your post, you do nothing but brag about how you know more about Genesis than Dr. Missler and you took information out of context in many places, such as when the two lost everything, I cut out all except the above to talk about.

Dr. Missler has a wealth of information when it comes to the Hebrew language and has connections with many messianic Jewish rabbis.

Also, I noticed that you neglected to talk about the how much Dr. Missler has spent in the Word, teaching at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, ETC...
Also, it's obvious that you have never watch an entire seminar of Dr. Missler's. Watch the entire seminar from start to finish (NOT JUST THE VIDEO I POSTED). I only posted Session 3. Watch every single video in the seminar, then watch all 24 hours in Dr. Missler "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" seminar, in which he highlights the main points of Scripture and brings out some amazing insights. (Note, the "Learn the Bible" series is an OVERVIEW series, but does bring out A LOT of insights into Scripture).

My grandparents are in their late 80s and have been studying Scripture all their lives and taught Sunday School in their younger years (about 10-15 years ago), and my parents have been studying Scripture and raised my sister and me in a wonderful, almost idealic, Christian home, and we all love watching men like Paul Washer, Dr. Chuck Missler, L.A. Marzulli, or Tom Horn.

I'm not bragging, but just showing you that they have much more time of being Christians than 5 months, and we all enjoy his seminar's tremendously and have grown tremendously in our faith due to them.
 
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MichaelKelley

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Yes, God exists, and here's tangible proof on my website.
Read the Article: The Gospel Message (in Genesis!!).

There's no way you're going to convince me that a group of Jewish Rabbis contrived to hide a portion of the Christian Gospel in their own venerated Torah!! Yet, it is THERE!
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Since most of your post, you do nothing but brag about how you know more about Genesis than Dr. Missler and you took information out of context in many places, such as when the two lost everything, I cut out all except the above to talk about.

Dr. Missler has a wealth of information when it comes to the Hebrew language and has connections with many messianic Jewish rabbis.

Also, I noticed that you neglected to talk about the how much Dr. Missler has spent in the Word, teaching at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, ETC...
Also, it's obvious that you have never watch an entire seminar of Dr. Missler's. Watch the entire seminar from start to finish (NOT JUST THE VIDEO I POSTED). I only posted Session 3. Watch every single video in the seminar, then watch all 24 hours in Dr. Missler "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" seminar, in which he highlights the main points of Scripture and brings out some amazing insights. (Note, the "Learn the Bible" series is an OVERVIEW series, but does bring out A LOT of insights into Scripture).

My grandparents are in their late 80s and have been studying Scripture all their lives and taught Sunday School in their younger years (about 10-15 years ago), and my parents have been studying Scripture and raised my sister and me in a wonderful, almost idealic, Christian home, and we all love watching men like Paul Washer, Dr. Chuck Missler, L.A. Marzulli, or Tom Horn.

I'm not bragging, but just showing you that they have much more time of being Christians than 5 months, and we all enjoy his seminar's tremendously and have grown tremendously in our faith due to them.

Read the studies of Genesis in the commentaries by W. Brueggermann, U. Cassuto, R. Davidson, V. P. Hamilton (two volumes, 522 pp. and 774 pp.), K. A. Matthews (two volumes, 526 pp. and 960 pp.), J. A. Skinner, J. H. Walton, G. J. Wenham (two volumes, liii/353 pp. and 555 p.p.), and C. Westermann (three volumes, 636 pp., 604 p.p., and 269 pp. Having read them, you will be in a fairly good position to evaluate Chuck Missler’s knowledge of Genesis. The same applies to your grandparents, your parents, and your sister.

The commentaries on Genesis by Hamilton, Matthews, Skinner, Wenham, and Westermann should be a well-read part of the library of everyone who teaches Genesis. Most unfortunately, that is not the case, and very much of what is taught on Genesis today by popular, well-meaning “Bible” teachers is ridiculously out of harmony with an academically defensible interpretation of that book.
 
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MichaelKelley

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Read the studies of Genesis in the commentaries by W. Brueggermann, U. Cassuto, R. Davidson, V. P. Hamilton (two volumes, 522 pp. and 774 pp.), K. A. Matthews (two volumes, 526 pp. and 960 pp.), J. A. Skinner, J. H. Walton, G. J. Wenham (two volumes, liii/353 pp. and 555 p.p.), and C. Westermann (three volumes, 636 pp., 604 p.p., and 269 pp. Having read them, you will be in a fairly good position to evaluate Chuck Missler’s knowledge of Genesis. The same applies to your grandparents, your parents, and your sister.

The commentaries on Genesis by Hamilton, Matthews, Skinner, Wenham, and Westermann should be a well-read part of the library of everyone who teaches Genesis. Most unfortunately, that is not the case, and very much of what is taught on Genesis today by popular, well-meaning “Bible” teachers is ridiculously out of harmony with an academically defensible interpretation of that book.

I've never even heard of them. I'll just stick to commentaries by David Guzik and Chuck Smith. They're the best two commentators on Scripture there is.
And, sermons by Paul Washer, Bible studies by Chuck Missler, etc.

You are in no position to evaluate Missler or anyone else because you haven't hardly seen his studies. Read is biography. He's done more in his life then you could ever hope to do, and your arrogance can't handle it.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I've never even heard of them. I'll just stick to commentaries by David Guzik and Chuck Smith. They're the best two commentators on Scripture there is.
And, sermons by Paul Washer, Bible studies by Chuck Missler, etc..

There are, throughout the world, millions of people who collect Waterford leaded crystal but who have never heard of Baccarat leaded crystal, and they believe that Waterford crystal is the best that there is. I had never heard of it either, until one day some years ago when I was shopping in an upscale jewelry store and I saw scores of pieces of very beautiful leaded crystal. I looked at the price of one of the pieces that I thought that I could afford and I was absolutely shocked to see that the price was $7,500. I noticed a small bud vase similar in size and pattern to those made by Waterford costing about $50, but the price of the Baccarat piece was $495. An exceptionally nice piece was priced at $12,500. I knew that the store that I was in was known for selling its merchandise at a reasonable markup, so I wondered why the Baccarat pieces were so extremely expensive.

A store employee noticed my interest in the Baccarat leaded crystal and asked me if I had any questions. I asked her why it was so expensive. She handed to me a piece of it and told me to hold it up to the light. I did that, and unlike in Waterford leaded crystal, I could not see even the very tiniest of flaws. I began reading about Baccarat leaded crystal and I learned why it is so extremely expensive.

Pick up the commentaries on Genesis by Hamilton, Matthews, Skinner, Wenham, and Westermann and hold them up to the light of the word of God. It is very easy for anyone to say that Waterford leaded crystal is the best leaded crystal that there is—until they pick up a piece of Baccarat leaded crystal and hold it up to the light, and then pick up a piece of Waterford leaded crystal and hold it up to the same light.

A friend of mine was madly in love with Corvette automobiles until one clear, sunny afternoon in July when he spotted the most beautiful Corvette that he had ever seen. There it was—right in front of him, glistening in the sun—but parked right next to it was a brand new Ferrari! My friend was so in love with Corvettes that he did not even notice the Ferrari. We walked over to the cars, and Craig almost drooled over the Corvette—and then he noticed that I had stopped looking at it; I was looking at the Ferrari. Craig became curious and began looking at the Ferrari. His eyes opened so wide that they nearly popped out of their sockets! After a few minutes of this, Craig remarked, “That Corvette is nothing but an empty sardine can!”

You are in no position to evaluate Missler or anyone else because you haven't hardly seen his studies. Read is biography. He's done more in his life then you could ever hope to do, and your arrogance can't handle it.

I believe that Chuck Missler’s knowledge of the Book of Genesis is insufficient for him to teach on that book; therefore, I am not familiar with Chuck Missler and his teaching on Genesis? What kind of logic is that?

Michel Kelly is in no position to evaluate commentaries on Genesis that he, by his own admission, has never even heard of. That sounds like very good logic to me!

One thing that Chuck Missler apparently did that I have never done is plagiarize the work of another. http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146663/missler-plagiarism
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I would also speculate that, if you are anything like myself, you are posting here because you do not find the Bible to have any real power by the time you factor in a more scientific view point.

The Bible, when it is believed, has the power to convict men of their sins, manifest to them that Jesus died in their place for their sins, rescue them from the power of darkness, and transfer them to the kingdom of God’s beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14). The Bible, when it is believed, has the power to admonish, encourage, and strengthen the Christian. The Bible, when it is believed, has the power to teach us the truths of God, and to protect us from false beliefs.

These powers of the Bible are not diminished by an academically sound interpretation of it. Indeed, an academically sound interpretation of the Bible enhances ones faith in God and the powers of the Bible.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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The Bible teaches that:

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The consequence of those sins is eternal damnation in hell.

Hell is a very miserable place to spend eternity.

Jesus died in our place for our sins.

Through faith in Jesus, the Christ, our sins are forgiven and we become new people in Christ.

Faithful Christians, when they die, will spend eternity in heaven.

Heaven will be a very enjoyable place to spend eternity.
 
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phoenixdem

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<staff edit>

Jesus was part-man. It is in man to fear death. Jesus left His place in Heaven and came down to earth to live as a mortal man. Yes, He was also part God. But, he was fully man too and lived like a man. On the Cross, Jesus cried out to His Father and asked why He had forsaken Him. Christ became a sacrificial lamb and died for man to be reunited with God.

If you have no appreciation for Jesus' acts, then you don't. If you don't accept Jesus' atonement for your sins, you don't. If you don't want eternal life, then you don't, but just don't try to convince the Children of God that eternal life with God is a bad thing. We know better and we know there are many deceiving spirits that will try to convince us that bad is good and good is bad. Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3:1). In short, there are other verses that are appropriate.



John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.



10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he
calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.


10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them,
and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they
know not the voice of strangers.

Jesus is the good shepherd and His people are His sheep. The children of God will always know the good shepherd's voice and they will know the voice of the false shepherds. Let it be.

progress.gif
 
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Hupomone10

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The evolution of the eye has fascinated evolutionist as far back as Darwin himself. Regarding the evolution of the eye he wrote in the first edition of his On the Origen of Species (1859),
Organs of extreme perfection and complication.

To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.
Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.
In the sixth edition (1872) of the same work he wrote,
Organs of extreme perfection and complication.

To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
In both of these editions, Darwin proceeds to lay out his understanding of the mechanism by which the evolution of the eye took place. The mechanism is given in more detail in the sixth edition than it is in the first edition.


150 years of study of the evolution of the eye have proved that Darwin was correct, we do see in nature animals with everything from the simple ability to perceive light to animals with fully formed eyes and the ability to very accurately perceive colors of light and to very finely focus that light. Furthermore, the mechanism by which the evolution of the eye could have taken place is now much better understood.

We very seldom find in the fossil record fossilized soft tissues such as eyes because they decay much more rapidly than fossilization can normally take place. Instead, we typically find fossilized bones and teeth. Therefore, we cannot expect to find in the fossil recorded a full spectrum of the evolution of the eye. We do find, however, this full spectrum in living animals. Indeed, we have today animals with everything from the simple ability to perceive light to animals with fully formed eyes and the ability to very accurately perceive colors of light and to very finely focus that light. Even having the simple ability to perceive light is a huge advantage over no sight at all, and all that is necessary for an animal to perceive light is cells in their body that are sensitive to light. With every improvement in vision come further advantages.

According to the theory of evolution, evolution is taking place throughout the plant and animal kingdoms, but much faster in some plants and animal than others. For example, in Horsetail plant (Equisetum telmateia), still looks very much like it did 100 million years ago. The same is true of the the American cockroach Periplaneta americana (even though its resistence to the poisons that we use to control it is evolving rapidly). On the other hand, some of the species of plants in the genus Clarkia are rapidly evolving, as is the Maliaria Mosquito (Anopheles gambiae). The causes of these different rates of evolution are complex, but they are mostly due the need, or the absence of the need, to adapt to environmental changes.
Thanks. Sorry so long to respond. Too many irons in the fire.

If I understand this correctly, Darwin in both comments has said in effect that since we see simple forms of sight and more complex forms of sight, each useful to the animal, and since we see fine changes in eyes today, it is reasonable to assume that they evolved from this simple form to the more complex. He further argues that if these small variations be passed on to the next generation, it also is evidence to believe that large changes could have happened and be passed on.

I still have questions and doubts about this philosophy; this doesn't resolve those doubts.

1. This is just as he admits, reasoning and not evidence. Granted there cannot be fossil evidence of soft tissue eyes, so let us admit that it is a belief based on what the author considers reasoning rather than facts.

Another man's reasoning can come to a different conclusion altogether, and not a biased one either. Another man could conclude that evolving from one eye form to another is just an idea, and that there is still no evidence that it occurred; so he may choose not to base his philosophy of life on this idea. He need not even be a person who believes in Design, but merely a person who realizes this is still just an idea, not a theory based on evidence observed. More on this below.

2. The statement that simple forms of sight that are fully formed and fully functional to the animal, and more complex ones with the same functionality, does not to me argue for evolution between the two.

One could likewise argue that simple fully formed mechanical systems and complex fully formed mechanical systems argue for evolution between the two rather than a designer who made both simple and complex fully formed mechanical systems.

3. Darwin has described only forms of sight already fully functional to the animal. He describes small changes only, and these small changes are still fully functional to the animal. To me, the fact that simple forms of sight exist does not argue for evolution between a simple animal without any sight function evolving by brainless nature into an animal with even the simplest fully functional form of sight, especially because it must be a process of slow changes, one infinitesimal change at a time.

It is one thing for a fully functional sight form to have a small change that still doesn't affect the animal's ability to see; it's another thing entirely to propose that one fully functional form of sight will gradually cross over to another form, one infinitesimal change at a time, and this is exacerbated by the fact that there is no evidence to back it up, merely an idea that it happened that way.

In order to be favored frequently enough to be passed on enough to become a favored trait, each small almost unnoticeable change in the eye must in fact give the animal a more favorable chance of survival to be passed on enough times to make it a new trait of the animal. Otherwise, it is just a mutation that happens once, and isn't passed on.

And, in fact, the issue is much more complex than this, for we are ignoring the formation of the nerves that must also gradually evolve to connect these eyes to the brain.

The animal with no sight whatsoever must have eyes slowly formed one infinitesimal mutation at a time, have the same exact mutation happen in enough parents to pass it on as a survivable trait, and have the synaptic connections, which themselves had to follow the same slow infinitesimal change process, form one small change at a time, to connect these partially formed eye forms to the brain.

Any intermittent form of the animal in the above scenario would not be favored for survival over the one without the small infinitesimal change. Therefore, to me, the only reasonable conclusion that one could reach, if he assumes the above scenario Darwin has painted, is that a Designer purposely forced these gradual formations. In other words, for this slow change process to occur and be favored, it would take the intervention of an intelligence to make it happen.

This reminds me of a cartoon I once saw of two robots following another robot and one of the two says to the other regarding the guy in front: "he believes in Design;" obviously inferring the two robots in back believed they evolved.

I think this is the situation we are in today.

150 years of study of the evolution of the eye have proved that Darwin was correct, we do see in nature animals with everything from the simple ability to perceive light to animals with fully formed eyes and the ability to very accurately perceive colors of light and to very finely focus that light.
But only fully functional forms of sight have been observed. Some simple, some complex, and all with connections to their brain (or have they discovered some with nerves formed but no eyes, or eyes formed but no nerves?). It would seem that all Darwin has been proved correct about is that there are animals with simple eyesight forms and those with complex, not a cross between the two. Even a grade school child could observe this.

Please don't give up on me. Please walk me through the animal without that most simple, fully functional eye form, into the animal with this fully functional eye form, one small infinitesimal change at a time, and how nature would favor that enough times to pass it on; and also through the formation at the same time of synaptic connections, one small infinitesimal change at a time, that would be necessary to make the eye form useable and not just a mutation that had no reason in the genetic code to be passed on.

And through the process, one small infinitesimal change at a time between the simplest fully functional eye form into the more complex eye form, and this infinitesimal change being favored enough times to make it a favored trait, and then the next infinitesimal change, etc, etc, such that we arrive at even the first plateau of small change between the one to the other.

The problem still seems to me to be seeing fully functional simple and complex forms and assuming they came about by gradual change between them instead of Design making them that way. The pry bar vs the winch. One evolved into the other only because of the mind of the designers.

I am truly looking for the holes in what I said; but thus far, I only see holes in what Darwin said; and it didn't take that much thinking to see it, only enough doubt in the idea to look objectively at it.

Thanks,
H.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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3. Darwin has described only forms of sight already fully functional to the animal. He describes small changes only, and these small changes are still fully functional to the animal. To me, the fact that simple forms of sight exist does not argue for evolution between a simple animal without any sight function evolving by brainless nature into an animal with even the simplest fully functional form of sight, especially because it must be a process of slow changes, one infinitesimal change at a time.

It is one thing for a fully functional sight form to have a small change that still doesn't affect the animal's ability to see; it's another thing entirely to propose that one fully functional form of sight will gradually cross over to another form, one infinitesimal change at a time, and this is exacerbated by the fact that there is no evidence to back it up, merely an idea that it happened that way.

In order to be favored frequently enough to be passed on enough to become a favored trait, each small almost unnoticeable change in the eye must in fact give the animal a more favorable chance of survival to be passed on enough times to make it a new trait of the animal. Otherwise, it is just a mutation that happens once, and isn't passed on.

And, in fact, the issue is much more complex than this, for we are ignoring the formation of the nerves that must also gradually evolve to connect these eyes to the brain.

The animal with no sight whatsoever must have eyes slowly formed one infinitesimal mutation at a time, have the same exact mutation happen in enough parents to pass it on as a survivable trait, and have the synaptic connections, which themselves had to follow the same slow infinitesimal change process, form one small change at a time, to connect these partially formed eye forms to the brain.


My quotes from Darwin were only the introduction to what he wrote on the evolution of the eye in his On the Origen of Species. As I wrote in my post, he then proceeded to describe the mechanism by which the evolution of the eye may have occurred. Please read Darwin&#8217;s description of this mechanism, and then the article found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

This article barely scratches the surface, but it does show that Darwin was a very insightful naturalist. It has been quite a few years since I myself sat in university laboratories studying the evolution of the eye, so I suggest that you read the material referenced in the Wikipedia article that I referenced.

Let us not forget that Darwin was a Christian, that he studied Christian theology at the University of Cambridge at a time when evangelical fervor was very strong in England, and that he took his Bible with him aboard the Beagle (HMS Beagle). Upon his return to England in 1836, Darwin, anticipating the rejection that he would experience from his fellow naturalists who mostly were also Christians, and the Christian community as a whole, largely kept to himself his theory of evolution through natural selection; but in 1858, upon receiving a letter from another naturalist, Alfred Russel Wallace, in which Wallace summarized his own theory of evolution through natural selection, Darwin knew that he was about to be upstaged and made his discoveries known. Darwin&#8217;s theory was immediately very well received by the scientific community, but the Christians outside of that community so severely attacked their fellow Christian brethren that they found it necessary to withdraw further and further from the Christian community. Today, only a small fraction of biologists are Christians, and who can blame them!

 
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phoenixdem

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My quotes from Darwin were only the introduction to what he wrote on the evolution of the eye in his On the Origen of Species. As I wrote in my post, he then proceeded to describe the mechanism by which the evolution of the eye may have occurred. Please read Darwin’s description of this mechanism, and then the article found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

This article barely scratches the surface, but it does show that Darwin was a very insightful naturalist. It has been quite a few years since I myself sat in university laboratories studying the evolution of the eye, so I suggest that you read the material referenced in the Wikipedia article that I referenced.

Let us not forget that Darwin was a Christian, that he studied Christian theology at the University of Cambridge at a time when evangelical fervor was very strong in England, and that he took his Bible with him aboard the Beagle (HMS Beagle). Upon his return to England in 1836, Darwin, anticipating the rejection that he would experience from his fellow naturalists who mostly were also Christians, and the Christian community as a whole, largely kept to himself his theory of evolution through natural selection; but in 1858, upon receiving a letter from another naturalist, Alfred Russel Wallace, in which Wallace summarized his own theory of evolution through natural selection, Darwin knew that he was about to be upstaged and made his discoveries known. Darwin’s theory was immediately very well received by the scientific community, but the Christians outside of that community so severely attacked their fellow Christian brethren that they found it necessary to withdraw further and further from the Christian community. Today, only a small fraction of biologists are Christians, and who can blame them!


Darwin was a Christian? Here is an interesting article. The answer is a yes and no and depends on what was happening in his life at the time.

Here is a quote from the article. "He wrote in 1880, "I do not believe in the Bible as revelation and thus I do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God."" (A View From Wales)
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Darwin was a Christian? Here is an interesting article. The answer is a yes and no and depends on what was happening in his life at the time.

Here is a quote from the article. "He wrote in 1880, "I do not believe in the Bible as revelation and thus I do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God."" (A View From Wales)

Charles Darwin is an excellent example of millions upon millions of people who were very unwisely taught that the Bible teaches a theological position that is contrary to the theory of evolution. Darwin gradually lost faith in the reliability of the Bible as a source of truth because he discovered an abundance of evidence that, in his opinion, disproved the theological position that he understood the Bible to teach. Our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, several synods of the Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church, and the Methodist Church have learned the lesson that God has taught us through the life of Darwin and millions upon millions of others. Is it not about time that very many more of us in our Baptist churches stopped teaching that the Bible teaches a theological position that is contrary to the theory of evolution?

A Baptist friend of mine has a brother whom he loves dearly but is on his way to hell because he was very unwisely taught that the Bible teaches a theological position that is contrary to the theory of evolution. This precious soul for whom Christ died has no faith in the reliability of the Bible as a source of truth because he learned in school that there is an abundance of evidence that, in his opinion, disproves the theological position that he understands the Bible to teach! I very nearly suffered the same fate for the same reason, but, by the grace of God, I learned that the Bible teaches a theological position that is contrary to the theory of evolution only if it is so interpreted, and that the very large majority of Biblical scholars today do not accept that interpretation as being academically defensible. Once I got past that hurdle that is dooming young people to hell by the millions, I was able to seriously consider the Bible to be a reliable source of truth. The theory of evolution is not a stumbling block to me because, whether it is true or not, the Bible is true when it is interpreted in an academically defensible manner.
 
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MichaelKelley

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<staff edit>


First of all, you completely ignored the ARTICLE I was referring to. I don't know what you mean by "blurb," but the tangible proof of God is the article, "The Gospel Message (in Genesis!!)."

There's no way your going to convince me that a group of Jewish Rabbis contrived to hide a portion of the Christian Gospel in their own venerated Torah.

Who Is Jesus? - The Bible Study Now Institute
 
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Hupomone10

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My quotes from Darwin were only the introduction to what he wrote on the evolution of the eye in his On the Origen of Species. As I wrote in my post, he then proceeded to describe the mechanism by which the evolution of the eye may have occurred. Please read Darwin’s description of this mechanism, and then the article found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

This article barely scratches the surface, but it does show that Darwin was a very insightful naturalist. It has been quite a few years since I myself sat in university laboratories studying the evolution of the eye, so I suggest that you read the material referenced in the Wikipedia article that I referenced.

Let us not forget that Darwin was a Christian, that he studied Christian theology at the University of Cambridge at a time when evangelical fervor was very strong in England, and that he took his Bible with him aboard the Beagle (HMS Beagle). Upon his return to England in 1836, Darwin, anticipating the rejection that he would experience from his fellow naturalists who mostly were also Christians, and the Christian community as a whole, largely kept to himself his theory of evolution through natural selection; but in 1858, upon receiving a letter from another naturalist, Alfred Russel Wallace, in which Wallace summarized his own theory of evolution through natural selection, Darwin knew that he was about to be upstaged and made his discoveries known. Darwin’s theory was immediately very well received by the scientific community, but the Christians outside of that community so severely attacked their fellow Christian brethren that they found it necessary to withdraw further and further from the Christian community. Today, only a small fraction of biologists are Christians, and who can blame them!

Ok. I will read that. Hopefully it will explain it.

Today, only a small fraction of biologists are Christians, and who can blame them!
I thought you were a 5-pt Calvinist. Maybe I was wrong and had you confused with someone else. Anyway, according to election, being a biologist or not being a biologist, and Christians being narrow-minded toward evolution or not, should have nothing to do with how many biologists are Christian or not.

Confused, :confused:
H.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Ok. I will read that. Hopefully it will explain it.


I thought you were a 5-pt Calvinist. Maybe I was wrong and had you confused with someone else. Anyway, according to election, being a biologist or not being a biologist, and Christians being narrow-minded toward evolution or not, should have nothing to do with how many biologists are Christian or not.

Confused, :confused:
H.

No, I am not a five-point Calvinist; I am a Baptist :D. Yes, if I were a five-point Calvinist, I would believe that everyone is damned to the fires of hell unless they won the lottery in heaven:idea:.
 
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FreeinChrist

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MOD HAT

Sorry - this thread went through a small thread clean up. If your post is missing or edited, it is because it was quoting a post now removed from the thread.

 
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Hupomone10

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Where do you draw the line on what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively?

Presumably, Darwin took the Bible literally and couldn't reconcile this with his scientific findings.
That is more often than not the reason Christians adopt the philosophy of theistic evolution (God created, but did it by evolution), because of inability to reconcile literal scripture with objective science. One way is to see scripture as figurative instead of literal. Another way is to reject science in favor of scripture alone. Of course, another way is to ignore scripture and believe objective science.

The problem I found is that scientists aren't objective. The smartest people in the world can be blind; and scientists aren't exempt from having the need to explain away accountability to a Creator.

I myself saw it figuratively until I ran into a seminar in California with a scientist presenting evidence for creation; until then I was aware of none.

It opened up a whole new world to me, not that I understood it all or could answer all objections, but that there was evidence for creation that previously I thought didn't exist and had assumed what scientists were telling me was unbiased truth. I was wrong. Whether I have the answers or not, or whether I can satisfy all the unsaved's questions or not, I no longer see science as unbiased, but see it for what it is. And my faith is not a blind faith. This is when I discovered that it would take more faith for me to believe in macro-evolution than it did to believe in creation.

IMHO, macro-evolution rather than being a more informed point of view, an intellectual one, it is a ridiculous point of view that will in time be replaced with a different theory, one such as that life was seeded here from somewhere else in space.

They will not then believe in the creator, they will just pass the buck one more step down the line. But at least the theory that destroyed my faith as a high school kid (and I can tell is undermining some's faith here) will be discounted and admitted for what it was - mere biased opinion.

Blessings,
H.
 
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sealacamp

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Is it not about time that very many more of us in our Baptist churches stopped teaching that the Bible teaches a theological position that is contrary to the theory of evolution?

May that time never come for as soon as it arrives we will be following something that is contrary to Gods word, and that thing will lead all who follow it astray.

Sealacamp
 
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56Bluesman

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As a Baptist I presume I'm no more of a baboon than any atheist would be if indeed Darwinian theory is correct. I'm an old earth and universe creationist by the the way. We've been around in Christendom for a very long time, well before Charles Darwin came along. It's not so much that the theory of evolution that is a problem for most folks, but rather that the pure materialist lacks any coherent theory of abiogenesis. I'm, sorry but microbiology and biochemistry have shown Darwin's small warm pond to be quite dry, and unable to brew the primordial soup of life when reductionism is applied.
 
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