Republican President For Obama To Emulate

[brindisi]

The last American President to understand the concept of limited government, and the moral necessity of fiscal responsibility: Calvin Coolidge

Calvin Coolidge, words to live by


”Duty is not collective; it is personal.”

“Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery.”

”There is no dignity quite so impressive, and no one independence quite so important, as living within your means.”

”Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong.”

”Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration has been minding my own business.”

”Four-fifths of all our troubles would disappear, if we would only sit down and keep still.”

“The business of America is business.”

 

[rambot]

I would posit that Edward Norton, or John Cusack could fill that role; at least aethetically.

Regarding the quotes, I definitely want to throw out that there are a lot of good Christian values being presented there: Putting yourself before other people; "the first will be first and the last will be last"... Beautiful stuff there.

Besides that:
”Duty is not collective; it is personal.” This is a GREAT quote if you're stuck on a desert island a la Castaway. But remember that whole "No man is an island" shpiel from what's his name? Well, if you live amongst other human beings and you feel no responsibility for their well being and they feel no responsibility for yours, it isn't too long before everyone's a sociopath.

MY gut feeling however, is that his quote may be slightly misappropriated here...

 

[brindisi]

Regarding the quotes, I definitely want to throw out that there are a lot of good Christian values being presented there: Putting yourself before other people; "the first will be first and the last will be last"... Beautiful stuff there.

Your rephrasing isn't actually very clever. Christian values include free will and individual responsibility, not government power and programs.

Besides that:
”Duty is not collective; it is personal.” This is a GREAT quote if you're stuck on a desert island a la Castaway. But remember that whole "No man is an island" shpiel from what's his name?

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

John Donne

Well, if you live amongst other human beings and you feel no responsibility for their well being and they feel no responsibility for yours, it isn't too long before everyone's a sociopath.

Once again, Christian values include free will and individual responsibility, not government power and programs. Perhaps when you speak of becoming sociopaths, you're only speaking for your own circle of friends.

MY gut feeling however, is that his quote may be slightly misappropriated here...

Then you would be wrong.

 

[bricklayer]

We should never contend that we have no obligation to another.
We should contend that our obligation is to God, not to eachother.

We have been "redefined" from a nation of people endowed by their Creator with certain and inalienable rights into a nation of people endowed by eachother with therefore uncertain and alienable rights.

To consider anything that comes from other people a right,
one must fundamentally redefine a right.
Such a redefinition would fundalmentally redefine Amaerica.

We are falling not flying.

 

[rambot]

Your rephrasing isn't actually very clever. Christian values include free will and individual responsibility, not government power and programs.

Free Will: Could you find some verses to support that statement? I swear that Calvinism isn't exactly the biggest proponent of "Free will".
Also, can you explain how you extrapolated how individual responsibility for one's spiritual development can honestly be interpreted as individual responsibility for one's financial success? (if you insist on quoting parables, please explain why the parable is to be taken LITERALLY as opposed to figuratively, like any other parable).

Once again, Christian values include free will and individual responsibility, not government power and programs. Perhaps when you speak of becoming sociopaths, you're only speaking for your own circle of friends.

Christian values have nothing to do with ANY of the four things you mentioned. And no i'm not speaking of your friends but I wonder if that is the best rebuttal you could manage?




Then you would be wrong.[/quote]

 

[bricklayer]

I can take that up Rambot.

Free-will is not in the bible.
We do have wills that are free to act according to our nature.
A free-will is a will free to act according to its nature.

We should not contend that we do not have a responsibility to care for each other.
We should only contend that the responsibility is a personal responsibility to God not a public responsibility to each other.

 

[lordbt]

Actually, the Bible is a moral guide. Morality presupposes free will.

 

[brindisi]

Free Will: Could you find some verses to support that statement? I swear that Calvinism isn't exactly the biggest proponent of "Free will".

Good thing I'm not a Calvinist.

In the story of the young rich man, Christ was asked "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Christ's answer was "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." The young rich man could not bring himself to do that, and simply walked away. When called to give freely he couldn't, and he was not forced to.

The message here is that the young man's riches belong to him, and he can do what he wishes with them. Christ called him to voluntarily give away his riches to help the poor, but didn't call him to give them to the tax collector for redistribution. That young man in this story was called, just as we are today, to freely give of himself to help those around him. He was, and we are, called to turn our lives to humility, and service, and sacrifice. And the story is not about money alone, but is about anything in our lives that we value so much we can't sacrifice it to follow Gods will. But nowhere in this story is there a call to set up government programs for redistributive justice.

Two additional scriptures emphasizing free will, though when addressing salvation, are:

Romans 10
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Also, can you explain how you extrapolated how individual responsibility for one's spiritual development can honestly be interpreted as individual responsibility for one's financial success? (if you insist on quoting parables, please explain why the parable is to be taken LITERALLY as opposed to figuratively, like any other parable).

I don't really understand your question here, but let me give a scripture that clearly calls us into account as individuals, not as a community.

Romans 2
5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.

and a second scripture:

Romans 14
10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Christian values have nothing to do with ANY of the four things you mentioned. And no i'm not speaking of your friends but I wonder if that is the best rebuttal you could manage?

I think you're wrong on this. The scriptures are chock full of messages of free will and individual responsibility, but you have to really stretch to believe responsibilities can be fulfilled through collective government action. When standing in God's presence and being called to account for my individual responsibilities, I don't want to be responding "Well, I paid my taxes."