If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen....

[MrPolo]

If the rich young ruler was not chosen, then he was not chosen long before he became rich or had anything to rule.

That begs the question then. Why does the actual text say how "hard it is for a rich man" to get into heaven if his fate is unrelated to his wealth or any other personal quality?

 

[Optimax]

Then you also agree that God determines salvation based on some quality of the person.

Not at all.

Salvation is determined by what the scriptures say.

Jesus said a man(person) must be born again
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV

How to do that is explained in the Book of Romans

Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV


The above is written. If a person does what these scriptures say then they are born again.

They say that if a person believes in their heart. This does not speak of the "blood pump"(heart) but the inward part of our innermost being.

If a person believes in their innermost being that God raised Jesus from the dead

AND;

Confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus, or confessed that Jesus is Lord, or the Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They shall be saved.

Now if a person does this and is not saved or if there is something else that must be done then God is a liar and we are without hope.

Thank God He is not a liar and we can depend on what He said as TRUTH.
Therefore anyone who does the above gets the promise of "Eternal Life", they are saved and will spend eternity with God.

I am sure glad He made it simple enough for the fool I was to be able to comprehend and do.

It has to simple so that anyone can comprehend it and do it.

Otherwise God would not be just.

 

[andreha]

If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen (i.e. all souls are equally guilty), then why would it be difficult for a rich man to get into heaven? Surely God does not have a harder time electing rich people. Help me sort this thought exercise.

You are right, MrPolo. Being rich in itself does not make a difference. If one looks at the original Greek, the word used for a rich person is Plousios. The word Plousios is derived from Plouton, which is the name for the greek mythological god of the underworld - the so called "third world" and it's riches. So, to clarify, that word refers to someone who idolizes worldly riches. So, plusios could be translated as "rich man/person", but more accurately, a person who idolizes money. That's why Jesus said:

(Mat 19:24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

An obedient child of God will be saved, rich or not.

 

[MrPolo]

Not at all.

Salvation is determined by what the scriptures say.

Jesus said a man(person) must be born again
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV

How to do that is explained in the Book of Romans

Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV


The above is written. If a person does what these scriptures say then they are born again.

They say that if a person believes in their heart. This does not speak of the "blood pump"(heart) but the inward part of our innermost being.

If a person believes in their innermost being that God raised Jesus from the dead

AND;

Confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus, or confessed that Jesus is Lord, or the Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They shall be saved.

Now if a person does this and is not saved or if there is something else that must be done then God is a liar and we are without hope.

Thank God He is not a liar and we can depend on what He said as TRUTH.
Therefore anyone who does the above gets the promise of "Eternal Life", they are saved and will spend eternity with God.

I am sure glad He made it simple enough for the fool I was to be able to comprehend and do.

It has to simple so that anyone can comprehend it and do it.

Otherwise God would not be just.

Can you synthesize this thought with the text about how hard it is for a rich man to get into heaven.

 

[Optimax]

Can you synthesize this thought with the text about how hard it is for a rich man to get into heaven.

Certainly.


the requirement to be born again requires a decision that we place our trust in God, believing that His Way is reality. We make Him our Lord and Savior trusting in Him.

A rich man's trust is in his riches. It is very difficult, but not impossible, for a rich man to place their trust in God instead of their riches.

If any man rich or not receives Jesus as Lord and Savior they are saved.

The rich young ruler had a hard time with Jesus' request that he give away what he had and follow him.

Sounds to me like the Lord had offered him an Apostleship. The young man turned it down because he could not in his mind "lose" his riches.

He did not believe "take heed of what you hear, for with what measure you mete will be measured back to you again".

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

If God's election gives no consideration to any attributes of the chosen (i.e. all souls are equally guilty), then why would it be difficult for a rich man to get into heaven? Surely God does not have a harder time electing rich people. Help me sort this thought exercise.

Consideration is different then basis.

 

[heymikey80]

That begs the question then. Why does the actual text say how "hard it is for a rich man" to get into heaven if his fate is unrelated to his wealth or any other personal quality?

It's interesting the disciples concluded from Jesus' statements in this case itself, that, no one would make it into heaven if they were being judged in the way Jesus was talking about.

Jesus didn't reassure them in the manner, "Well, you're not rich enough." He reassured them by describing their current lives of faith.

So the issue would return to whether Jesus is talking about evidence of a salvation that had already come upon them -- or if their works were causing their salvation.

 

[MrPolo]

He reassured them by describing their current lives of faith.

So the issue would return to whether Jesus is talking about evidence of a salvation that had already come upon them

Actually, when they doubted anyone could do good, Jesus assured them that "with God all things are possible." The disciples knew man of his own accord could not do anything "good" enough. But with God's help man can--that's why when we cry "Abba, Father" it is both our spirit and the Holy Spirit crying out together.

I don't see anything in the text saying that what they are commanded is only an unsalvific byproduct of prior election. And your post doesn't explain why it would be hard for a rich man to enter heaven if what he does is irrelevant anyway---it should be no easier or harder for God to elect a rich man or the woman with one penny since no human condition is a factor in God's choice. Plus, the text is preceded with the "if-then" statement: if you want eternal life-then keep the commandments and sell possessions and follow.

The text in any of the 3 narratives is not descriptive, it is prescriptive as a certain Reformed apologist likes to say in reverse. Prescriptive, by grammatical definition, would be in the reverse. It would instead read: If you have eternal life-then you follow commandments, etc...

 

[Faith.Man]

You're not answering his question. You just said that the rich man rejected the promise because he loved his money more than God, then you said that people have no choice in the matter of salvation. You say the rich man made a choice reject salvation, then you later say nobody has a choice about salvation. How exactly does that work? How can money be affecting this man's choice if he has no choice?

Matthew 19:16-26

Matthew 19:16 - And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
Matthew 19:17 - And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:18 - Then he *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
Matthew 19:19 - HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Matthew 19:20 - The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
Matthew 19:21 - Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Matthew 19:22 - But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
Matthew 19:23 - And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:24 - "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:25 - When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
Matthew 19:26 - And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." [NASB]
The incident with the young ruler prompted a brief message from Jesus to His disciples. He remarked how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Since the man was trusting his riches rather than the Lord to save him, he could no more enter the kingdom than a camel (one of the largest animals used by Jews) could go through “the eye of a needle” (rhaphidos, a sewing needle; not a small gate within another gate as is sometimes suggested). This needle’s eye was an extremely small opening. The astonished disciples asked, Who then can be saved? This showed the Pharisees’ influence on them, for the Pharisees said God bestows wealth on those He loves. So if a wealthy person cannot make it into the kingdom, seemingly no one can! Jesus answered that salvation is a work of God. What appears to be impossible with men is what God delights to do. [Bible Knowledge Commentary]

I think the problem here is viewpoint. It is assumed that the main focus of Jesus answer is to the young ruler. But the young ruler was an example, an example for millions of Christians to read about and learn from. Consider the miracle quoted below:

John 9:3 - Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. [NASB]

This is the answer.

John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. [NASB]

 

[Verticordious]

Matthew 19:16-26

Matthew 19:16 - And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
Matthew 19:17 - And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:18 - Then he *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
Matthew 19:19 - HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Matthew 19:20 - The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
Matthew 19:21 - Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Matthew 19:22 - But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
Matthew 19:23 - And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:24 - "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:25 - When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
Matthew 19:26 - And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." [NASB]
The incident with the young ruler prompted a brief message from Jesus to His disciples. He remarked how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Since the man was trusting his riches rather than the Lord to save him, he could no more enter the kingdom than a camel (one of the largest animals used by Jews) could go through “the eye of a needle” (rhaphidos, a sewing needle; not a small gate within another gate as is sometimes suggested). This needle’s eye was an extremely small opening. The astonished disciples asked, Who then can be saved? This showed the Pharisees’ influence on them, for the Pharisees said God bestows wealth on those He loves. So if a wealthy person cannot make it into the kingdom, seemingly no one can! Jesus answered that salvation is a work of God. What appears to be impossible with men is what God delights to do. [Bible Knowledge Commentary]

I think the problem here is viewpoint. It is assumed that the main focus of Jesus answer is to the young ruler. But the young ruler was an example, an example for millions of Christians to read about and learn from. Consider the miracle quoted below:

John 9:3 - Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. [NASB]

This is the answer.

John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. [NASB]

You can't just pull verses out of context and claim they somehow apply to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 19.

John 9:3 is Jesus's response when the disciples has assumed the man was blind because of some sort of sin, and they were simply wondering because of who's sin. Jesus then responds, saying that the man was born blind so that that the power of God could be seen in him, which refers to the fact that the miracle validates that his message is from God. Please explain to us how this this supposedly supports the idea of election, or relates to Matthew 19.

In John 15:16 Jesus is talking directly to his disciples. Not to a crowd, and certainly not to Christians as a whole. He did most certainly choose the twelve of them, not for salvation, but to preach the gospel to the Jews. This also has nothing to do with election, nor does it have anything to do with Matthew 19.

 

[MamaZ]

You can't just pull verses out of context and claim they somehow apply to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 19.

John 9:3 is Jesus's response when the disciples has assumed the man was blind because of some sort of sin, and they were simply wondering because of who's sin. Jesus then responds, saying that the man was born blind so that that the power of God could be seen in him, which refers to the fact that the miracle validates that his message is from God. Please explain to us how this this supposedly supports the idea of election, or relates to Matthew 19.

In John 15:16 Jesus is talking directly to his disciples. Not to a crowd, and certainly not to Christians as a whole. He did most certainly choose the twelve of them, not for salvation, but to preach the gospel to the Jews. This also has nothing to do with election, nor does it have anything to do with Matthew 19.

One had to be saved in order to preach the Gospel.

 

[Anoetos]

There are conditions in all our lives which obscure the Gospel call. Some of them are common to men, some are besetting to only a few.

Wealth is one of these. The point in these is not that wealth (or disease, or drunkenness or any of the signal, obstacle-making sins or fruits of sin or scandals or conditions) is a singular or unique expressions of unfitness for salvation. The point is, again, that our lives are beset with conditions and contingencies which make things difficult for us and keep us from happiness.

That our Lord says immediately afterwards that all things are possible with God explains everything. As much trouble as these things may give us, and as difficult as they may make hearing and receiving the word of Grace, Christ can and does overcome them in the case of His elect.

 

[MrPolo]

Since the man was trusting his riches rather than the Lord to save him, he could no more enter the kingdom than a camel...[Bible Knowledge Commentary]

So the Bible Knowledge Commentary also believes God gives consideration to characteristics of the person when choosing. This man exhibited trust in the wrong "god."

 

[Rick Otto]

That begs the question then. Why does the actual text say how "hard it is for a rich man" to get into heaven if his fate is unrelated to his wealth or any other personal quality?

Consider it a rhetorical construction like, "it's hard to get blood from a turnip".

 

[Faith.Man]

You can't just pull verses out of context and claim they somehow apply to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 19.

I believe John 9:3 perfectly explains Matthew 19:16-26. This is a teaching moment for Jesus to His apostles. It has to do with the sovereignty of God. Is God in control or not? Is God's plan subject to the whims of His creation? In my opinion, no.

[/quote]John 9:3 is Jesus's response when the disciples has assumed the man was blind because of some sort of sin, and they were simply wondering because of who's sin. Jesus then responds, saying that the man was born blind so that that the power of God could be seen in him, which refers to the fact that the miracle validates that his message is from God. Please explain to us how this this supposedly supports the idea of election, or relates to Matthew 19.[/quote]

The apostles were falsely believing this affliction was the result of some past sin, or in other words, work. Since this was not the case, Jesus explained to His apostles that this occurred for a demonstration for the glory of God. And it worked too. Don't we all glorify God when miracles occur? So this man was afflicted all his life for the purpose of showing the healing capability of Jesus. In other words he was predestined to be healed by Jesus.

[/quote]In John 15:16 Jesus is talking directly to his disciples. Not to a crowd, and certainly not to Christians as a whole. He did most certainly choose the twelve of them, not for salvation, but to preach the gospel to the Jews. This also has nothing to do with election, nor does it have anything to do with Matthew 19.[/quote]

Jesus chose His apostles, they did not chose Him until after He chose them. Because of God's sovereignty, they were predestined to be His disciples just as Judas was predestined to betray Jesus to the Roman authorities.

Commentary on Zechariah 11:12-13 - Israel’s appraisal of the True Shepherd’s worth was 30 pieces of silver, the compensation price for a slave gored by an ox (Exodus 21:32). Baldwin thinks 30 pieces of silver for a slave indicates the “high value set on human life” in the Mosaic Law (Zechariah, p. 184). Whether or not this is correct, the choice of the slave price was probably intended as an insult to the Shepherd, worse than a direct refusal to pay Him any wage. Throwing this handsome price (an obvious use of irony) to the potter shows its trifling worth (the potter was one of the lowest of the laboring class). This prophecy was fulfilled in Judas’ betrayal of Christ (Matthew 26:14-16; Matthew 27:3-10; for a survey of problems relating to Matthew’s citation of this passage, cf. Hobart E. Freeman, An Introduction to the Old Testament Prophets. Chicago: Moody Press, 1968, pp. 340-2). [Bible Knowledge Commentary]

Doesn't prophecy amount to predestination? I am comforted knowing that God is in charge.

 

[Faith.Man]

So the Bible Knowledge Commentary also believes God gives consideration to characteristics of the person when choosing. This man exhibited trust in the wrong "god."

I think where we might disagree here is the choosing part. Just as the blind man, this man was predestined in his "choice", and this is used as a teaching moment by Jesus for His disciples. To put it simply, you either believe in the sovereignty of God or you don't. Nothing I can say or quote from will convince you if not guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[MrPolo]

Just as the blind man, this man was predestined in his "choice", and this is used as a teaching moment by Jesus for His disciples. To put it simply, you either believe in the sovereignty of God or you don't.

I ask that if one is going to make an argument, to reconcile that interpretation with the text in question. The text does not say that. The text refers to the difficulty for a rich man to get into heaven. See also my earlier citations to the if-then, command structured statements regarding one's capacity to enter eternal life in the very context of the rich man story. What I am saying is no affront to God's sovereignty. The Bible commentary you cited agreed.

As to whether God ever subjects Himself to His creatures: Remember the Passion where Jesus laid down His life of His own accord to the hands of His creatures (Jn 10:18). God in His sovereignty and simultaneous love submitted His life to His creatures. Remember also Jesus telling us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Election is connected with the foreknowledge of God. Apparently He uses His foreknowledge to look for something . I think it might be connected with who will accept the grace He offers. In that way this verse might be topical:

1 Peter 5:5 God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

We can't be saved without grace right?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Mr Polo. Jesus could see that the young man could not even imagine giving all his riches away, and Jesus felt sorry for him. The riches itself are not at fault, it is their power over us. And as a rule, the richer a person is, the more he, or she finds it impossible to let go. Please note that I do not say: all rich people let money take top priority. Jesus was talking about the hold, riches can have over us. When Jesus tells the Lawyer in Matthew: the first and great Commandment is: Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto it: Love thy neighbour as thyself," Jesus was pointing out how important Love is. Love is a Christian`s attribute and his sword, and God will approve of all deeds done where love is uppermost, and all words said where love shines through. The Holy Spirit will greatly empower us with love, if we ask. Jesus told us: " ask and ye will receive," whether it is advice or help and guidance. Christ died for all and at this very moment God`s Holy Spirit is in the world to save whoever will come, and ask sincerely. I say this humbly and with love, Mr Polo. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[simonthezealot]

Consideration is different then basis.

I'm surprised Polo didn't enquire further to this comment.