• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The role of women as wives and mothers

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree that we seem to have an expectation of what is 'due' to us in our western culture.:thumbsup: Maybe I should convince DH to change careers and move to Detroit...:thumbsup: our area (an hour from the city) gets you a basic house for approx $700,000 :eek: We still spent 7.5 times our income buying our apartment. Either you can have a family or you can afford a family around here.^_^

We choose where we live and not the other way around. If we choose to live in a high cost region (maybe because of our job) it is a personal choice.

Currently we live in a middle class area and our house has more owed on it than what it is worth because of all the foreclosures and terrible economy of SE Michigan. But I know of families that have six or more kids and home school and have one income. They may have to live in a mobil home park where rent is cheap. The kids will have to share bedrooms. They may not be able to buy name brand clothes or new clothes. But they are wealthier than me because they live a more Christian life and their treasure is in Heaven. Though I have treasure in Heaven I am sure their is more.

I am still of this world and will always be of this world to some degree. But I choose how much I choose Heaven over this world. In the end... I pray it is enough.
 
Upvote 0

Assisi

not a sissy
Sep 7, 2006
4,155
463
Sydney
✟29,280.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We choose where we live and not the other way around. If we choose to live in a high cost region (maybe because of our job) it is a personal choice.

Currently we live in a middle class area and our house has more owed on it than what it is worth because of all the foreclosures and terrible economy of SE Michigan. But I know of families that have six or more kids and home school and have one income. They may have to live in a mobil home park where rent is cheap. The kids will have to share bedrooms. They may not be able to buy name brand clothes or new clothes. But they are wealthier than me because they live a more Christian life and their treasure is in Heaven. Though I have treasure in Heaven I am sure their is more.

I am still of this world and will always be of this world to some degree. But I choose how much I choose Heaven over this world. In the end... I pray it is enough.

Sorry to hear that about your house! America has been hit very hard lately :(

I'll admit that we choose to live where housing is expensive (ie, in a city), because we choose for DH to have a career in his chosen field. It certainly comes with its sacrifices.
 
Upvote 0

Globalnomad

Senior Veteran
Apr 2, 2005
5,390
660
72
Change countries every three years
✟23,757.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Helenofbritain has asked us over and over again to go back to her original post and comment on it. I think she deserves that respect, don’t you?

I know who wrote that passage, HoB, but I won’t say – let others have a try, too.

It is a beautiful, true and meaningful passage (as is the whole opus), but I have a big objection to it. It is wholly about the WOMAN, and HER vocation of motherhood. The author does not really compare or contrast the woman’s role with that of the man. The woman is told that her first responsibility is towards her children and husband – as if this was not equally true of the man! The woman is told that she has the right to work outside the home – the man is not told that he has the right to stay at home! The woman is reminded (not in this passage, but elsewhere in this work) repeatedly of the special blessing and holiness that goes with motherhood – the man is not dignified with similar words about fatherhood. As a result, the overall effect confirms the old misconception: woman’s vocation is motherhood; a man’s is – everything else!

Note that this passage does not say that the ideal thing for a mother is to stay at home. It only says that she needs to put her children first. If she has a professional vocation (and millions of us do – medicine, research etc!) and she can balance the two things (for example, if she lives in an extended family where there is a grandmother or an aunt to take care of the kids during the day – something that DOES happen, even in the West!), she is encouraged to contribute to society outside the home. This is a vital point. We generally talk of the woman who is forced to work, or chooses to work, for financial reasons, true or selfish. It is true that this is the "majority problem", but we should not forget the sizable minority of women who have a real professional interest/vocation. You cannot possibly ask all of them to give up that vocation or give up having children!
 
Upvote 0

Gwendolyn

back in black
Jan 28, 2005
12,340
1,647
Canada
✟20,680.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Women aren't suited to anything outside of childbearing? They are 'too fragile' to work outside the home? Poor St. Teresa of Avila and St. Catherine of Siena... even though they are Doctors of the Church, I suppose they were not fulfilling their role as a woman. Do you know that monasteries were the only other choice for women who did not want to marry or bear children at the time? St. Catherine of Siena didn't want to marry so intensely that she barricaded herself in her room and prayed to God that she wouldn't have to marry and bear children. No one would dare say she wasn't following God's will.

And I wouldn't dare say that women who are barren/sterile are less of a woman because they can't bear children. I wouldn't dare say that their dignity is lessened, or that they are incompetent and not suited to do anything else in life. The Church doesn't making adopting children necessary when one is barren/sterile. Women have so many other ways to serve the Church - namely teaching, which is what I would like to do (maybe even in a foreign country). Women can also become nuns if that is their calling, but neither does the Church mandate that women who cannot have children MUST therefore refrain from marrying altogether.

We aren't living in the middle ages where women were thought to be unworthy of educating because their only function was childbearing, and they were valued only for their ability to bear children. Bearing children is a beautiful thing, but the Church today acknowledges that women may serve God's people in any number of ways, childbearing being only one.
 
Upvote 0
S

_Shannon_

Guest
What does one do with someone like Saint Gianna Molla? I mean she was a doctor????

ANd what does one do with that pesky Proverbs 31 woman? Out selling stuff and buying property and instructing others and clothed with strength?

She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”
 
Upvote 0

WarriorAngel

I close my eyes and see you smile
Site Supporter
Apr 11, 2005
73,951
10,060
United States Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟597,590.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
We aren't living in the middle ages where women were thought to be unworthy of educating because their only function was childbearing, and they were valued only for their ability to bear children.

Women were always teachers...
Schools weren't always in place - men had to work - it was the mother's / women who did home schooling through out most of the centuries...

Which is saying something.

The only other education anyone could get [men] was to study politics or theology.
But just like a good many things in science, the ancient men didn't realize how intelligent women were.
 
Upvote 0

WarriorAngel

I close my eyes and see you smile
Site Supporter
Apr 11, 2005
73,951
10,060
United States Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟597,590.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Howdy, David! I happened to be passing by :) and I just couldn't resist this discussion.

I see that some of my favourite people are around. How do YOU analyze the OP passage?
Standing up for women in other wise oppressed and dispossessed world.
 
Upvote 0

Globalnomad

Senior Veteran
Apr 2, 2005
5,390
660
72
Change countries every three years
✟23,757.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
A man is nothing with out a women, but I digress.
Only in the sense that every man has to have had a mother. And in that sense, a woman is nothing without a man, either (she has to have had a father). Otherwise, some men do very well without women in their lives (and I am not being sarcastic, I'm serious) - and the same applies to women.

But generally, it is true that we do better when we join up with someone of the opposite sex. We do complement each other very usefully, and pleasantly.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,142
11,354
✟820,959.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Howdy, David! I happened to be passing by :) and I just couldn't resist this discussion.

I see that some of my favourite people are around. How do YOU analyze the OP passage?

Agree with it totally. Written by one of my favorites in one of my four favorite things he wrote. Women and men are equal but not the same. And we can not ignore the personal dimension as well. What I mean by that is non-gender related skills and God given talents play a role in how active a particular person (no matter what gender) is active in care giving, jobs or personal endeavors.

In that each of us, are uniquely and personally gifted in ways that have nothing to do with gender. So to have gender be a barrier to exercising those gifts for the common good of society and the individual good of the family...would be to waste gifts from God.
 
Upvote 0

WarriorAngel

I close my eyes and see you smile
Site Supporter
Apr 11, 2005
73,951
10,060
United States Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟597,590.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
In this perspective the Synod devoted special attention to women, to their rights and role within the family and society. In the same perspective are also to be considered men as husbands and fathers, and likewise children and the elderly.
Above all it is important to underline the equal dignity and responsibility of women with men. This equality is realized in a unique manner in that reciprocal self-giving by each one to the other and by both to the children which is proper to marriage and the family. What human reason intuitively perceives and acknowledges is fully revealed by the word of God: the history of salvation, in fact, is a continuous and luminous testimony of the dignity of women.


In creating the human race "male and female,"(64) God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity, endowing them with the inalienable rights and responsibilities proper to the human person. God then manifests the dignity of women in the highest form possible, by assuming human flesh from the Virgin Mary, whom the Church honours as the Mother of God, calling her the new Eve and presenting her as the model of redeemed woman. The sensitive respect of Jesus towards the women that He called to His following and His friendship, His appearing on Easter morning to a woman before the other disciples, the mission entrusted to women to carry the good news of the Resurrection to the apostles-these are all signs that confirm the special esteem of the Lord Jesus for women.

Women and Society

23. Without intending to deal with all the various aspects of the vast and complex theme of the relationships between women and society, and limiting these remarks to a few essential points, one cannot but observe that in the specific area of family life a widespread social and cultural tradition has considered women's role to be exclusively that of wife and mother, without adequate access to public functions which have generally been reserved for men.

There is no doubt that the equal dignity and responsibility of men and women fully justifies women's access to public functions. On the other hand the true advancement of women requires that clear recognition be given to the value of their maternal and family role, by comparison with all other public roles and all other professions. Furthermore, these roles and professions should be harmoniously combined, if we wish the evolution of society and culture to be truly and fully human.
...
While it must be recognized that women have the same right as men to perform various public functions, society must be structured in such a way that wives and mothers are not in practice compelled to work outside the home, and that their families can live and prosper in a dignified way even when they themselves devote their full time to their own family.


Furthermore, the mentality which honors women more for their work outside the home than for their work within the family must be overcome. This requires that men should truly esteem and love women with total respect for their personal dignity, and that society should create and develop conditions favoring work in the home.

With due respect to the different vocations of men and women, the Church must in her own life promote as far as possible their equality of rights and dignity: and this for the good of all, the family, the Church and society.


But clearly all of this does not mean for women a renunciation of their femininity or an imitation of the male role, but the fullness of true feminine humanity which should be expressed in their activity, whether in the family or outside of it, without disregarding the differences of customs and cultures in this sphere.



This sounds like JPll
And he gives dignity to the woman, whereas so often men do not.
And women are not an alienated life form apart from God. But also made in His image.

Men in today's world are seeking women who are willing to work outside the home and hand over the child to a care taker. A caretaker is good, but will never have the child's very best interest at heart.

And the message is suggesting that working at home with children is integral to the family and shouldn't be looked at in a poor light.
Just what i read into it.

I have no qualms with it. I prefer being a stay at home mom if that is possible. But all my kids attend school now so i work part time.

Men and women are equal - we just have different roles according to our natures, in and foremost for the family.



 
  • Like
Reactions: Gwendolyn
Upvote 0

Globalnomad

Senior Veteran
Apr 2, 2005
5,390
660
72
Change countries every three years
✟23,757.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Agree with it totally. Written by one of my favorites in one of my four favorite things he wrote. Women and men are equal but not the same. And we can not ignore the personal dimension as well. What I mean by that is non-gender related skills and God given talents play a role in how active a particular person (no matter what gender) is active in care giving, jobs or personal endeavors.

In that each of us, are uniquely and personally gifted in ways that have nothing to do with gender. So to have gender be a barrier to exercising those gifts for the common good of society and the individual good of the family...would be to waste gifts from God.

I like the way you call it the "personal dimension". I tend to call it the "human dimension". In my opinion, we are 90% persons and only 10% male or female. The "men are from Mars, women from Venus" thing is garbage, IMO.... EXCEPT when people believe it so much that it truly becomes 90% of what they are and think. There are far too many people like that around, I'm afraid.
 
Upvote 0

Globalnomad

Senior Veteran
Apr 2, 2005
5,390
660
72
Change countries every three years
✟23,757.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
WA, a mother will not always have her child's best interest at heart, either. I have seen too many women who were either frustrated in their own lives and thus overpossessive and smothering of their child's personality, or overanxious to turn the child into a pre-planned character. As well as the (few) really self-centred and uncaring ones.,

There are also those who have the best intentions, but lack emotional intelligence and factual competence. No, motherly instinct/love does not necessarily correct that.
 
Upvote 0

sylverpiano

unworthy
Oct 14, 2010
3,334
1,369
50
✟68,702.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
CiC, what do you believe about single women?

Over the age of 18, not betrothed, perhaps called to the single life permanently, etc?

Are they not supposed to work to support themselves?


I am well over the age of eighteen. I plan to remain single and celibate. This is not for the sake of the Kingdom of God, but for the sake of retaining my sanity. My virginity was taken from me at knife point and left me with no desire for a sexual relationship.

With no husband in my future, I must support myself.

My brother and I are business partners. We own two buildings with a mixture of office space and residential units. Right now, I am responsible for the day to day operation. He is currently looking into our next acquisition. Maybe management isn't in accordance with a woman's role, but it is what I do.
 
Upvote 0

Globalnomad

Senior Veteran
Apr 2, 2005
5,390
660
72
Change countries every three years
✟23,757.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Epiclesis and Sylverpiano, please don't take this too far! NOBODY ever said that a woman shouldn't work, full stop. Even Creed - who is the biggest extremist I have met so far on this board - wouldn't say that - he would just say (correct me if I'm wrong, Creed) that she should not work once she is married - she should stay at home so she can welcome her husband every evening with hot dinner and warm slippers.

"Management is not in accordance with a woman's role"? Nobody has ever said that. On the contrary: look at the last chapter of Proverbs. That picture is confirmed by Christian tradition: every landowner-farmer's wife through all Christian history, has had to be a competent manager of several house-servants, of the dairy, of the chicken-farm, of canvas-making, wool-spinning and weaving - and of all the marketing and financial accounts connected with that. The husband managed the fields and their products, the large animals, and the construction work. Besides, he sometimes rode off to war, leaving the wife to oversee the entire enterprise.
 
Upvote 0

sylverpiano

unworthy
Oct 14, 2010
3,334
1,369
50
✟68,702.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Hi there, Globalnomad

Epiclesis and Sylverpiano, please don't take this too far! NOBODY ever said that a woman shouldn't work, full stop.

Much of what I read about the role of women seems to only address us as wives and mothers. I have been reading the Catechism, and an index search supports this view:

Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Index WXYZ

I know that my problem with this discussion is due to my lack of education in matters of the Church, and I am working to correct that. I just have a hard time accepting that the only role for me is one I can not attain.
 
Upvote 0