Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?

[bbbbbbb]

Yes. It goes like this:

He then thrusts the lance into the right side of the central square of the seal, then into the left, then above, then below, reciting with each thrust the corresponding prophecy of Isaiah :

"He was led as the sheep to the slaughter." "And as a lamb dumb before his shearer, He opens not His mouth." "In His humiliation His judgment was taken away." "Who shall declare His generation?"

Then he inserts the lance beneath the seal and lifts up the cubic portion of the bread, the "Amnos" or "Lamb," on which are stamped the letters IC-XC NIKA, "Jesus Christ Conquers." This he places on the Holy Paten, pierces it crosswise with the lance, reciting verses from the Bible, which call to mind Christ's crucifixion. The priest then pours wine and water into the Holy Chalice, covers it, and puts it aside.

6. Next, he cuts from the prosforon a triangular piece in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and this is placed at the right side of the Lamb. Then three rows of three small pieces are placed on the other side of the Lamb in honor of the apostles, martyrs, and other saints. In front of the Lamb, two rows of smaller pieces are arranged in memory of the living and the dead... The priest then puts the asterisk, symbolizing the star of Bethlehem, on the Paten, and covers with veils both the Paten and the Chalice. He censes the Covered Holy Gifts three times, and finally chants the beautiful closing prayer of the offertory service.

What I see here is a priest offering a bloodless sacrifice to God. The bread is being hacked to pieces as an offering. Am I incorrect in my understanding?

 

[Tyndale]

Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?


When the Priest transforms into a magician. You can't see this transformation happening, you just have to believe it.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes. It goes like this:

He then thrusts the lance into the right side of the central square of the seal, then into the left, then above, then below, reciting with each thrust the corresponding prophecy of Isaiah :

"He was led as the sheep to the slaughter." "And as a lamb dumb before his shearer, He opens not His mouth." "In His humiliation His judgment was taken away." "Who shall declare His generation?"

Then he inserts the lance beneath the seal and lifts up the cubic portion of the bread, the "Amnos" or "Lamb," on which are stamped the letters IC-XC NIKA, "Jesus Christ Conquers." This he places on the Holy Paten, pierces it crosswise with the lance, reciting verses from the Bible, which call to mind Christ's crucifixion. The priest then pours wine and water into the Holy Chalice, covers it, and puts it aside.

6. Next, he cuts from the prosforon a triangular piece in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and this is placed at the right side of the Lamb. Then three rows of three small pieces are placed on the other side of the Lamb in honor of the apostles, martyrs, and other saints. In front of the Lamb, two rows of smaller pieces are arranged in memory of the living and the dead... The priest then puts the asterisk, symbolizing the star of Bethlehem, on the Paten, and covers with veils both the Paten and the Chalice. He censes the Covered Holy Gifts three times, and finally chants the beautiful closing prayer of the offertory service.

cast not thy pearls...

Forgive me...

 

[Christos Anesti]

It has always been sacrifice.

This is from the Didache (or the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) one the earliest of Christian writings (written late 1st century of early 2nd) and was even accepted as Scripture by many early Christians. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church still has it in their broader canon of Scripture actually:

“But on the Lord's day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let not any one who hath a quarrel with his companion join with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be polluted, for it is that which is spoken of by the Lord. In every place and time offer unto me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles” (Didache, chapter 14).

This is from St Ignatius of Antioch a direct disciple of St John the Apostle:

"Be careful to observe [only] one Eucharist; for there is only one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup of union with his Blood, one altar of sacrifice, as [there is] one bishop with the presbyters and my fellow-servants the deacons."

St Justin Martyr:

"Of the sacrifice which we offer in every place, that is, of the bread and chalice of the Eucharist, Malachias has prophesied."

St Gregory the Theologian (Nazianzus):

"The tongue of a priest meditating on the Lord raises the sick. Do, then, the greater thing by celebrating the liturgy, and loose the great mass of my sins when you lay hold of the Sacrifice of the Resurrection. Most Reverend friend, Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword." (Letter of Gregory to Amphilochius, Bishop of Iconium)"The tongue of a priest meditating on the Lord raises the sick. Do, then, the greater thing by celebrating the liturgy, and loose the great mass of my sins when you lay hold of the Sacrifice of the Resurrection. Most Reverend friend, Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword." (Letter of Gregory to Amphilochius, Bishop of Iconium)

 

[Christos Anesti]

I always liked this part of the article on the OCA webpage on the Eucharist and the whole symbolic / mystical VS real thing, it shows how it is a false dichotomy:

In the history of Christian thought, various ways were developed to try to explain how the bread and the wine become the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharistic liturgy. Quite unfortunately, these explanations often became too rationalistic and too closely connected with certain human philosophies.

One of the most unfortunate developments took place when men began to debate the reality of Christ's Body and Blood in the eucharist. While some said that the eucharistic gifts of bread and wine were the real Body and Blood of Christ, others said that the gifts were not real, but merely the symbolic or mystical presence of the Body and Blood. The tragedy in both of these approaches is that what is real came to be opposed to what is symbolic or mystical.

The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ's Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him "in their hearts." In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord's last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.

On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term "symbols" for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a "mystery" and the sacrifice of the liturgy a "spiritual and bloodless sacrifice." These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.

The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality -- the world and man himself -- is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God's true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life" (Jn 6:34, 41).

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).

Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ's flesh, and Christ's flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word "symbolical" in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: "to bring together into one."

Thus we read the words of the Apostle Paul:

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death, until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor 11:23-26).

The mystery of the holy eucharist defies analysis and explanation in purely rational and logical terms. For the eucharist -- and Christ himself -- is indeed a mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven which, as Jesus has told us, is "not of this world." The eucharist -- because it belongs to God's Kingdom -- is truly free from the earth-born "logic" of fallen humanity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?

When the Priest transforms into a magician. You can't see this transformation happening, you just have to believe it.

Uh oh.......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5331&t=KJV

Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries/farmakeiwn <5331>, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

5331. pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Uh oh.......

And there suddenly became a "hush" on GT

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! All of flesh from faces of YHVH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him
[Zeph 1:7/Reve 8:1]

Reve 8:1 And when it opens the Seal, the Seventh, became a hush/sigh <4602> in the heaven as half-hour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6FniOt4AV8

 

[Jig]

Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?


When the Priest transforms into a magician. You can't see this transformation happening, you just have to believe it.

Actually, this brings up a good point. If the priest is not a "real" priest, this mystical unnoticeable transformation cannot occur to the bread and wine.

God's ability to change the substances is dependent on the priest being "real". The congregation must first "believe" that priest is "real" before they can "believe" the bread and wine have changed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually, this brings up a good point. If the priest is not a "real" priest, this mystical unnoticeable transformation cannot occur to the bread and wine.

God's ability to change the substances is dependent on the priest being "real". The congregation must first "believe" that priest is "real" before they can "believe" the bread and wine have changed.

These may help

 

[Erose]

Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?


When the Priest transforms into a magician. You can't see this transformation happening, you just have to believe it.

I guess you believe also that Jesus, the Apostles, many of the Prophets where all magicians.

What about what Jesus said to Thomas after Thomas confessed to Him "My Lord and My God". "You believed because you have seen, but blessed are those that do not see but believe."

What about when you were converted? Did you see you soul turn from red to white outlining you have been saved?

 

[Erose]

Actually, this brings up a good point. If the priest is not a "real" priest, this mystical unnoticeable transformation cannot occur to the bread and wine.

God's ability to change the substances is dependent on the priest being "real". The congregation must first "believe" that priest is "real" before they can "believe" the bread and wine have changed.

This is where we have the assurance of Apostolic Succession through the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

God bless.

 

[Christos Anesti]

God's ability to change the substances is dependent on the priest being "real". The congregation must first "believe" that priest is "real" before they can "believe" the bread and wine have changed.

It has nothing to do with God's ability. He could turn every piece of bread and bottle of wine in existence into His Body and Blood if He so desired. The fact that a certain Apostolic protocol surrounds the Eucharist doesn't imply a lack of ability in God.

 

[Christos Anesti]

::bump:::

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What I see here is a priest offering a bloodless sacrifice to God. The bread is being hacked to pieces as an offering. Am I incorrect in my understanding?

Yep... a bloodless sacrifice, we even say so in the prayers.

hacked to pieces? hmmm...

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us not sufficient?

Our condition is not curable. Medicine was not the answer.

Maybe you can't see it change, taste it change, smell it change, hear in change, and feel in change because nothing is changing.

Wait...they actually stab the loaf of bread during the liturgy?

Hi Jig!

Forgive me...

 

[Dorothea]

Yep... a bloodless sacrifice, we even say so in the prayers.

hacked to pieces? hmmm...

Forgive me...

My priest just talked about this last night. He said Christ God is always whole, no matter what. Even if there is a crumb of the Eucharist. It is the whole Body of Christ. He cannot be "cut up."

This talk of all this cutting up and such. The change is done by the Holy Spirit. Why question how He does it. We don't know, just like we don't know how He does other things.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yep... a bloodless sacrifice, we even say so in the prayers.

hacked to pieces? hmmm...

Forgive me...

I regret saying "hacked to pieces". I am certain that the priest carefully cuts the bread and does not hack it. In any event, this procedure was quite new to me. I have never observed it in any Catholic church and I think it is a clear difference.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I regret saying "hacked to pieces". I am certain that the priest carefully cuts the bread and does not hack it. In any event, this procedure was quite new to me. I have never observed it in any Catholic church and I think it is a clear difference.

It is a very very private part of the liturgy, done in the Altar with the doors closed. I don't know how we would do that with a wafer?

The rememberances etc... the whole set of prayers would have less meaning.

I took no offese at the 'hacked' word... just struck me as different.

Forgive me...

 

[Bouke285]

Man has twisted God's desire for us into so many doctrines and cults its unbelievable to me. Step away from the arguments, there will always be those blinded in this world. Step into the only truth we have God himself teaching us by way of the Holy Spirit.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Man has twisted God's desire for us into so many doctrines and cults its unbelievable to me. Step away from the arguments, there will always be those blinded in this world. Step into the only truth we have God himself teaching us by way of the Holy Spirit.

Hi Bouke285!

Welcome to Christian Forums and General Theology.

Speak up now. Here's the mic.

Forgive me...