Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

except that we label this a sin, and this not a sin... and if we are unable to do anything perfectly, and the concept of sin is missing the mark, everything is sinful.

which makes me wonder why we lable one thing a sin, or not, if everthing is sin.

It's either a defined action, or a concept... it can't be both, I don't think.

Got ya...

Can you pray perfectly? Can I? Can we do anything perfectly?

Christ could. The only sinless one.

There is a difference in being sinful and committing sins.

I would suggest maybe reading St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, for a good understanding of the Apostolic understanding of sin. On the Incarnation

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well there's a big concept! Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin."

Is it a stretch to apply this to the Eucharist?

I don't doubt that he had that in mind as a secondary teaching when giving this wonderful homily. I can see the Eucharist in lots of places in scripture. It's easy after you are accustomed to the idea of it being there.

He is, of course, speaking of a code of tolorance among brothers... within bounds.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Got ya...

Can you pray perfectly? Can I? Can we do anything perfectly?

Christ could. The only sinless one.

There is a difference in being sinful and committing sins.

I would suggest maybe reading St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, for a good understanding of the Apostolic understanding of sin. On the Incarnation

Forgive me...

you've suggested that frequently, and I've read it in the past.

I don't have a bone to pick with the concept of sin... I was just making conversation on it.

and I agree with your post.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

you've suggested that frequently, and I've read it in the past.

I don't have a bone to pick with the concept of sin... I was just making conversation on it.

and I agree with your post.

Hope you don't mind me posting it again for the benefit of others.

Forgive me...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

A Spiritual reality, nothing transubstantiated about it

Lol!

Forgive me...

Exactly! tee hee

Well there's a big concept! Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin."

Is it a stretch to apply this to the Eucharist?

It is a shame this concept is not applied to everything . .. actually .

especially the faith part .

 

[Uphill Battle]

Hope you don't mind me posting it again for the benefit of others.

Forgive me...

not at all.

my favorite book is the cat in the hat. yours is "On the Incarnation."

to each their own.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

We need the Holy Eucharist in us... as the given medicine of immortality. Given at the hand of Christ and available nowhere else excpet through the liturgy.

It is a mystery. It is of pure faith. I have no other reason to believe it. I can not see it change. I can not taste it's change.

I do know this. When I serve the Altar and they are preparing the sacraments and they retell the story of HIS death in a quiet prayerful voice and they stab the side of the bread with the spear as was done to HIM....

I CRY.

That is HIS teaching. That is HIS way. I will follow.

Forgive me...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We need the Holy Eucharist in us... as the given medicine of immortality. Given at the hand of Christ and available nowhere else excpet through the liturgy.

It is a mystery. It is of pure faith. I have no other reason to believe it. I can not see it change. I can not taste it's change.

I do know this. When I serve the Altar and they are preparing the sacraments and they retell the story of HIS death in a quiet prayerful voice and they stab the side of the bread with the spear as was done to HIM....

I CRY.

That is HIS teaching. That is HIS way. I will follow.

Forgive me...

I am so glad you find solace in the liturgy .

My soul finds solace in God's transformation .

so long as we both find our peace in God in this thing we cannot understand .

then that would be the same peace of God that surpasses understanding .. would it not?

 

[Erose]

I think I'm doing pretty good for a guy who died last year. Major heart disease. Let's see... seven bypasses, four stents, eight heart attacks. Let's just say I tire easily. No reflection on present company.

I monitor computers 24/7. I manage dozens of servers from work and from home. I'm always connected so I almost always keep a browser open and a yrefresh pointed to here... I'm at home now monitoring systems for utilities. Got to keep the kids fed.

I agree that there are different levels of sin. I discuss mine with my spiritual father.

The Orthodox Churches teach that we don't know exactly when the change happens, we don't know exactly what has changed, but we trust that it HAS because HE taught HIS liturgy around it. We obey, perhaps to a fault.

Forgive me...

There is nothing wrong with obedience. I would say that this virtue is the most lacking in modern Christians.

God bless.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is nothing wrong with obedience. I would say that this virtue is the most lacking in modern Christians.

God bless.

Even modern RC Christians?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There is nothing wrong with obedience. I would say that this virtue is the most lacking in modern Christians.

God bless.

the very word obedience causes the will to think of ways to be rebellious .

i like the concept . the word seems tainted for me though . lol .

 

[Erose]

Even modern RC Christians?

Did I say Protestant Christians or did I say modern Christians?

 

[Erose]

the very word obedience causes the will to think of ways to be rebellious .

i like the concept . the word seems tainted for me though . lol .

That is what God calls us to do. Be obedient to our God, to His pastors, to our civil authorities, to our parents. Like I said it is one of those virtues people don't like, but is necessary for salvation nonetheless.
Acts Of Apostles 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.
Acts Of Apostles 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him.
Acts Of Apostles 7:39
Whom our fathers would not obey; but thrust him away, and in their hearts turned back into Egypt,
Romans 2:8
But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That is what God calls us to do. Be obedient to our God, to His pastors, to our civil authorities, to our parents. Like I said it is one of those virtues people don't like, but is necessary for salvation nonetheless.
Acts Of Apostles 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.
Acts Of Apostles 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him.
Acts Of Apostles 7:39
Whom our fathers would not obey; but thrust him away, and in their hearts turned back into Egypt,
Romans 2:8
But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

I'd rather obey God than men too .

 

[Erose]

I'd rather obey God than men too .

Are you willing to obey God when He tells you to obey certain men/women?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are you willing to obey God when He tells you to obey certain men/women?

Yeah, and i did, but he doesn't do that anymore .

 

[Jig]

We need the Holy Eucharist in us...

Is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us not sufficient?

as the given medicine of immortality.

Our condition is not curable. Medicine was not the answer.

It is a mystery. It is of pure faith. I have no other reason to believe it. I can not see it change. I can not taste it's change.

Maybe you can't see it change, taste it change, smell it change, hear in change, and feel in change because nothing is changing.

I do know this. When I serve the Altar and they are preparing the sacraments and they retell the story of HIS death in a quiet prayerful voice and they stab the side of the bread with the spear as was done to HIM....

I CRY.

That is HIS teaching. That is HIS way. I will follow.

Forgive me...

Wait...they actually stab the loaf of bread during the liturgy?

 

[Christos Anesti]

s the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us not sufficient?

You could make the same argument "against" any positive thing the Scriptures tell us to do. Love those who hate you... wait isn't the Holy Spirit indwelling me enough why do I have to do that ? Be Baptized... wait I don't want too is being filled with Holy Spirit not sufficient? Love God and your neighbor as your self... wait I don't want too isn't being filled with the Holy Spirit enough? Repent and turn your life over to God... etc..

Our condition is not curable. Medicine was not the answer.

Then why would Christ "waste His time" with dying for us if He couldn't cure us?

Maybe you can't see it change, taste it change, smell it change, hear in change, and feel in change because nothing is changing.

Maybe one can't see, taste, smell, or hear God when they pray to Him because He actually isn't there listening? Apparently those things are necessary for one to be in the presence of something real?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Wait...they actually stab the loaf of bread during the liturgy?

Yes. It goes like this:

He then thrusts the lance into the right side of the central square of the seal, then into the left, then above, then below, reciting with each thrust the corresponding prophecy of Isaiah :

"He was led as the sheep to the slaughter." "And as a lamb dumb before his shearer, He opens not His mouth." "In His humiliation His judgment was taken away." "Who shall declare His generation?"

Then he inserts the lance beneath the seal and lifts up the cubic portion of the bread, the "Amnos" or "Lamb," on which are stamped the letters IC-XC NIKA, "Jesus Christ Conquers." This he places on the Holy Paten, pierces it crosswise with the lance, reciting verses from the Bible, which call to mind Christ's crucifixion. The priest then pours wine and water into the Holy Chalice, covers it, and puts it aside.

6. Next, he cuts from the prosforon a triangular piece in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and this is placed at the right side of the Lamb. Then three rows of three small pieces are placed on the other side of the Lamb in honor of the apostles, martyrs, and other saints. In front of the Lamb, two rows of smaller pieces are arranged in memory of the living and the dead... The priest then puts the asterisk, symbolizing the star of Bethlehem, on the Paten, and covers with veils both the Paten and the Chalice. He censes the Covered Holy Gifts three times, and finally chants the beautiful closing prayer of the offertory service.

 

[razeontherock]

Here I'm cut and pasting something interesting Christos Anesti posted in another thread, that I think bears witness to what I've been saying:

"When we hear Jesus say, “Ye shall eat and drink at the table of my kingdom,” what do we suppose we shall eat, if not love? Love, rather than food and drink, is sufficient to nourish a person. This is the wine “which maketh glad the heart.” Blessed is the one who partakes of this wine! Licentious people have drunk this wine and become chaste; sinners have drunk it and have forgotten the pathways of stumbling; drunkards have drunk this wine and become fasters; the rich have drunk it and desired poverty, the poor have drunk it and been enriched with hope; the sick have drunk it and become strong; the unlearned have taken it and become wise."

Of course, those are the words of St Isaac the Syrian, not moi. I think we would all do well to remember something along these lines the next time we partake ...

I'm reminded of Peter, who after first refusing our Lord from washing his feet said "not my feet only, but my hands and my head also." May His Body and His Blood dwell in me throughly ... and all of us.