Hell

[Timothew]

The final destiny of those who deny the L-rd is not Hell, it is the Lake of Fire....Hell for the Unbeliever it seems is a soul-destroying holding place, waiting for the inevitable. (although any understanding we have is sketchy at best...but sufficiently terrible to make us desire to avoid it at all costs...)

Rev 20:11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 122And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 133And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 144Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire does not represent anihilation, but is evidently a locatable destination in the spiritual realm, from which there is no hope of escape, and where the Devil, the Beast and the False prophet will be permanently sealed along with all those that have drunk from the chalice of their lies and deceit.

Reread the Revelation passage.

John tells what he means by the Lake of Fire. He says that it is the second death. We know what death is. It is no heartbeat, no breathing, no brainwaves, no consciousness.
If you poke a dead body with a pitchfork, it doesn't feel anything.

So the Lake of Fire, according to the Bible, is death.

But for all Christians there is life, not death. Jesus will return and lift us out of the grave and give us eternal life.

Tim

 

[Timothew]

Son of Israel, do you also believe that Scripture teaches that prior to the Incarnation....
....Christ was "Michael the archangel"?

The understanding of the state between death and Resurrection you promulgate is "Adventist".....
...Adventist being Christadelphians, JW, WWCOG and SDA.

This is why I ask you this question.

I'm not Adventist, Christadelphian, JW, WWCOG, SDA or any of those things.
I am a Christian and I worship God in a Baptist Church.
(SDAs are Christian, the others IDK)

 

[Pythons]

Hi pythons.
“State between death and resurrection”? What “state” would that be? A curious question. Me? Promulgate? lol. If asked, I would have given an answer in the twinkling of an eye lol. No I’m not an Adventist. I don’t belong to any sect actually. I’m just surrounded with my texts and wait upon the Holy Spirit I go where He sends me whenever. It is a simple life. One that doesn’t know of “a state between death and resurrection” lol. If you want to share what state exists between death and resurrection, I’m all ears I didn't know there was one anymore.

(1Jn 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That is my next "state" once this body croaks.

Concerning Michael, I have lots of time put into looking at Him. He is most certainly Christ. It is easy to expound if you ever want to see it. Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry and many other scholars discerned Michael as Christ also.
Just one example here for now, Michael receives worship from men.

(Jos 5:14) And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

No angels ever receive worship except Michael. Who else receives worship besides Michael?

(Mat 28:9) And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Michael is easily identified as being Jesus, when a few texts are compared, but I'll save that for another time and place. Why do you ask Pythons? How do you see it as relating to "adventists"? Who do you think Michael is? Is this the thread for it? If you'd like to start a thread on it I'll visit

One last question before either of us start a thread to discuss these things....
...Do you believe that Christ "could have sinned and lost His salvation"?
...As in was it possible for Christ to have sinned from Incarnation to death on the cross?

 

[Pythons]

I'm not Adventist, Christadelphian, JW, WWCOG, SDA or any of those things.
I am a Christian and I worship God in a Baptist Church.
(SDAs are Christian, the others IDK)

You don't consider yourself Baptist?

 

[Timothew]

You don't consider yourself Baptist?

Yes, but Christian first, Baptist second.

 

[Pythons]

Yes, but Christian first, Baptist second.

The following, according to the Baptist Confession, is part of the basic belief...
...And is affirmed upon Baptism into the church.

X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.
Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13.

 

[Timothew]

The following, according to the Baptist Confession, is part of the basic belief...
...And is affirmed upon Baptism into the church.

Where did you get the quote from?

Baptists are not required to recite any creeds, simple belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is all that is required as far as I know.

Tim

 

[Pythons]

Where did you get the quote from?

Baptists are not required to recite any creeds, simple belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is all that is required as far as I know.

Tim

"THE" Baptist website....
Southern Baptist Convention - Reaching the World for Christ

 

[Achilles6129]

He assumed Jesus wasn't dead when in the grave/hades but somewhere else alive.

He was dead physically. Everyone is "alive" in some sense, as they are conscious. Christ was dead physically, but conscious elsewhere. And the "elsewhere" where he was is called Hades, which is where his soul/spirit went.

He lists scripture that says nothing of "eternal torment", then finishes with his own conclusion that they all "mean" eternal torment.

No, the Scriptures I listed plainly talk about eternal torment. Nothing has to be read into them at all.

 

[Timothew]

"THE" Baptist website....
Southern Baptist Convention - Reaching the World for Christ

Did you read this part?

Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God.

 

[Pythons]

Did you read this part?

That does not include a rejection of what's been previously codified...
...Such as the Trinity, baptism, etc.
...Are you saying you could reject baptism and the Trinity and remain in good standing in a Baptist Church?

 

[Timothew]

or this part?

That we do not regard them as complete statements of our faith, having any quality of finality or infallibility. As in the past so in the future, Baptists should hold themselves free to revise their statements of faith as may seem to them wise and expedient at any time.

That any group of Baptists, large or small, have the inherent right to draw up for themselves and publish to the world a confession of their faith whenever they may think it advisable to do so.

That the sole authority for faith and practice among Baptists is the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. Confessions are only guides in interpretation, having no authority over the conscience.

Tim

 

[Son of Israel]

One last question before either of us start a thread to discuss these things....
...Do you believe that Christ "could have sinned and lost His salvation"?
...As in was it possible for Christ to have sinned from Incarnation to death on the cross?

"Incarnation" is not a scriptural term or teaching so I don't respond to that idea.
"What if" questions that only serve to apply the carnal mind to rationalize I also avoid.
However, I can relate to you what someone else related to me. It was out of 2 Sam 7:14

(2Sa 7:14) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

However, as I pointed out to that person, it was only in Solomon where that could be fulfilled.

All the O.T. Words of God were that He Himself would come and bring salvation unto Himself by "his own right arm";

(Isa 63:5) And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

God couldn't lie, therefore Jesus couldn't sin or He'd have made God a liar and all of creation would have evaporated probably lol. A tangled circle of worthless conjecture. However, Jesus being tempted in all points as we are and overcoming, is of course, HOW God said He would save. It was very real for Jesus to be confronted with temptation, but He was inclined to choose righteousness, becaus He was His Father's Son with His Father's tendencies, and at baptism, His Father's Spirit.

 

[Son of Israel]

He was dead physically. Everyone is "alive" in some sense, as they are conscious. Christ was dead physically, but conscious elsewhere. And the "elsewhere" where he was is called Hades, which is where his soul/spirit went.



No, the Scriptures I listed plainly talk about eternal torment. Nothing has to be read into them at all.

Well good luck with your twist on things Achilles. Wicked people still "alive" after they die and are laid in hell lol. Riiiiiight.... Christ dead physically and laid in hades 3 days but conscious elsewhere.... riiiiiight....
Good bye.

 

[Son of Israel]

Reread the Revelation passage.

John tells what he means by the Lake of Fire. He says that it is the second death. We know what death is. It is no heartbeat, no breathing, no brainwaves, no consciousness.
If you poke a dead body with a pitchfork, it doesn't feel anything.

So the Lake of Fire, according to the Bible, is death.

But for all Christians there is life, not death. Jesus will return and lift us out of the grave and give us eternal life.

Tim

You have wisdom Tim It is always good to meet another Bible student. It is interesting how folk just love to believe in paganism and superstition so much that they flood the hell topic with their own "reason" and their own "translation" to make it seem scriptural. Blessings to you bro. I'm interested in seeing other posts of yours

 

[Zeek]

Reread the Revelation passage.

John tells what he means by the Lake of Fire. He says that it is the second death. We know what death is. It is no heartbeat, no breathing, no brainwaves, no consciousness.
If you poke a dead body with a pitchfork, it doesn't feel anything.

So the Lake of Fire, according to the Bible, is death.

But for all Christians there is life, not death. Jesus will return and lift us out of the grave and give us eternal life.

Tim

Hello Tim...did as you suggested and re-read the passage, and some.

If the Lake of Fire means anihilation, how is it that Scripture states that at the time Satan was bound in the abyss for a thousand years, the Beast and the False Prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire....then when Satan is ultimately defeated he is cast there over a thousand years later, and Scripture records....

Rev 20:7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Here we see the reality of this place...that it still contains the Beast and the False prophet...e.g. they are not dead....and then goes on to say they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

When I read something as clear cut as this, I am loath to try and re-interpret what is said...and instead I am forced to conclude that the term 'second death' does not mean quite what you reason it to be.

It is an issue on which I am not pedantic, but my present conviction and Scriptural understanding does see a Holy G-d declaring the just recompense for the wicked, with impartiality and devoid of sentimentality.

In Messiah. Zazal

 

[Pythons]

"Incarnation" is not a scriptural term or teaching so I don't respond to that idea.

You've answered my question whereas the Trinity is concerned then...
...I appreciate you being frank.

"What if" questions that only serve to apply the carnal mind to rationalize I also avoid.
However, I can relate to you what someone else related to me. It was out of 2 Sam 7:14

(2Sa 7:14) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

However, as I pointed out to that person, it was only in Solomon where that could be fulfilled.

Ok - I'm wondering why you would point out that Scripture within the context of my question?

All the O.T. Words of God were that He Himself would come and bring salvation unto Himself by "his own right arm";

If that is an affirmation that it would have been impossible for Jesus to "sin"...
...Then we both agree and I can scratch that off my list as a concern.

God couldn't lie, therefore Jesus couldn't sin or He'd have made God a liar and all of creation would have evaporated probably lol. A tangled circle of worthless conjecture.

Yes, indeed....
...However the theology some people burp up - it's very important to them.
...And equally important to the people who help them see their way out of that heresy.

However, Jesus being tempted in all points as we are and overcoming, is of course, HOW God said He would save. It was very real for Jesus to be confronted with temptation, but He was inclined to choose righteousness, becaus He was His Father's Son with His Father's tendencies, and at baptism, His Father's Spirit.

Hmmm, that sounds pretty Orthodox to me, perhaps we are only going to be talking about Hell and the state between death and Resurrection.

The issue you have with the word Incarnation is a little odd....
...Even the fundies use that term.
...You DO accept the historic Trinity Doctrine of the Christian Faith?

 

[Son of Israel]

Ok - I'm wondering why you would point out that Scripture within the context of my question?
If that is an affirmation that it would have been impossible for Jesus to "sin"...
...Then we both agree and I can scratch that off my list as a concern.
Yes, indeed....
...However the theology some people burp up - it's very important to them.
...And equally important to the people who help them see their way out of that heresy.
Hmmm, that sounds pretty Orthodox to me, perhaps we are only going to be talking about Hell and the state between death and Resurrection.
The issue you have with the word Incarnation is a little odd....
...Even the fundies use that term.
...You DO accept the historic Trinity Doctrine of the Christian Faith?

Jesus "could" have sinned. But Jesus "wouldn't" sin. That is the difference. It wasn't "impossible" for Jesus to sin else his temptations would have been a worthless smokescreen. After all, what good to anybody would Jesus have been had he not been susceptible to being tempted to sin? That would be silly. He wouldn't be much of a savior to me to overcome my temptations to sin if He hadn't had to do that first in Himself.
At any point with his fleshly will, he was tempted to sin and succumb to his lusts had he not let Christ in Him run the show. One needs to understand all things in the providence of God that he Wouldn't sin. That is what I should have said earlier. This is an odd topic. Of what value is this topic to you?
It isn't whether he "could" have, for yes he "could" have. It is instead, all about whether He "would". That is what matters. But whether someone else understands it differently isn't of concern to me.

I don't involve myself in traditions of history or what others teach or believe in Pythons. Organized religion is much much worse than any "burped up" theology by far. I Only teach and follow what is revealed by the Word and by His Holy Spirit. I don't use terms or explore philosophies that aren't scriptural. Why do that? It is only a pitfall and a trap.

My God that I worship, who was crucified, risen, ascended, glorified and come into His believers, has filled me with His Holy Spirit. He is my Father, within whom all Power in Heaven and earth resides... His Name is Jesus. I know of no other God. I have no other God than Jesus. He is the One True God.

(Mar 12:29) Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:

That One Lord is my Lord, and His Name is Jesus.

As I said before, I have no clue what you refer to in a "state between death and resurrection". Unlike before Life was brought to light, as in the Old Covenant Israel where the resurrection hadn't come yet, they laid in graves in hope of that resurrection from hell (grave). It was so important that the Israelites even hauled Jacob's bones around with them for over 400 years. But when Christ came, the dead rose per scriptures. Everything changed. Jesus is the resurrection. It isn't a "function" or "occurence". It is "who" we are in being "One" with Christ delivered from death into Life and filled with His Holy Spirit, Christ in my flesh. He is with me always and shall never leave me He has promised. I have been risen with Him as also per scripture. I died in Christ in my baptism, and have been raised up in Him in His resurrection. This is scripture 101. The second death has no power over me. There is no "state" now between death and resurrection.

 

[Timothew]

Hello Tim...did as you suggested and re-read the passage, and some.

If the Lake of Fire means anihilation, how is it that Scripture states that at the time Satan was bound in the abyss for a thousand years, the Beast and the False Prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire....then when Satan is ultimately defeated he is cast there over a thousand years later, and Scripture records....

Rev 20:7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Here we see the reality of this place...that it still contains the Beast and the False prophet...e.g. they are not dead....and then goes on to say they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

When I read something as clear cut as this, I am loath to try and re-interpret what is said...and instead I am forced to conclude that the term 'second death' does not mean quite what you reason it to be.

It is an issue on which I am not pedantic, but my present conviction and Scriptural understanding does see a Holy G-d declaring the just recompense for the wicked, with impartiality and devoid of sentimentality.

In Messiah. Zazal

All I'm saying is that John told us what he meant by the lake of fire, he said it is the second death.

Isn't death a "just recompense for the wicked"?
God is impartial, He offers eternal life to all who come to Him. Who ever does not come to Him for eternal life does not receive eternal life.

I don't understand what you mean by "devoid of sentimentality."

 

[ThomasDa]

I was just wanting to know something. Forgive my ignorance, but what do you all think that hell will be like. My husband and I were talking about it, and he told me that he always thought that hell was like a lake of fire. I have always thought of hell as you would step off of a ledge and fall and fall and fall and fall....my mom thinks that there will be things that will torture you there, maybe even things that you are afraid of here, like I am afraid of mice, so if I went to hell, I would be tortured with mice along with the flames. I have even heard one guy that said that he had a vision of him being put into a cell, and a demon or something came and grabbed him and threw him against the wall. Then it with it's long claws reached into his flesh and ripped it out for more to grow back. But what do you all think that hell will be like?

What a shame.
Why don't you just believe what the Bible says about it.
Those who are thrown into hell fire will be burned up and be left neither root no branch; their ashes will be trod under foot by the righteous.
They, will be no more.
They will die the second death, from which there is no more life.
They will recieve the wages of sin, eternal death.
Only the righteous will recieve eternal life.
What kind of monster do you precieve God to be?