Catholic's, at what point does it become the body?

[ivebeenshown]

Yeah it's like Matthew 5:28

when you look on a woman lustfully you are not committing adultery symbolically but actually doing it . same concept . different instance .

Hey... that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Erose]

It was not meant as an insult but rather as an observation that those who have venture off the right path normally believe that they are following God when in reality that is not the case.

One other question. Who is the most holy person you ever met or know?

 

[Erose]

Yeah it's like Matthew 5:28

when you look on a woman lustfully you are not committing adultery symbolically but actually doing it . same concept . different instance .

Well Jesus said that looking at a woman lustfully was committing adultery. A sin is a sin. There is no symbolism in this passage. He was making the assertion of what is a sin.

Hopefully you are not saying that if we are thinking about having sex with another person is just a symbolism of a sin and as such not a sin?

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah it's like Matthew 5:28

when you look on a woman lustfully you are not committing adultery symbolically but actually doing it . same concept . different instance .

Um, I don't mean to be crude, but no you're not actually "doing it." There is a Spiritual reality the Lord wants us to be aware of, because He is ...

 

[Erose]

Um, I don't mean to be crude, but no you're not actually "doing it." There is a Spiritual reality the Lord wants us to be aware of, because He is ...

Are you sinning looking at a woman lustfully?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Are you sinning looking at a woman lustfully?

Yep. Sin = missing the mark of perfection (as if aiming an arrow at a target)

Forgive me...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Um, I don't mean to be crude, but no you're not actually "doing it." There is a Spiritual reality the Lord wants us to be aware of, because He is ...

Actually . you are doing it . i really would rather not go into experience regarding this one . really .

 

[Erose]

Yep. Sin = missing the mark of perfection (as if aiming an arrow at a target)

Forgive me...

I am curious if he knows that. Also, I pray you get well soon.

 

[razeontherock]

Yup I know that and know that well. but our problem (as a species) is much more frequently hitting the target we aim for, just aiming for the wrong target.

Still, the sin of looking is not the same as the action of doing; not that it's any less sin. So to put this in context w/ the discussion here, it could show a Spiritual connection btw the elements of the Eucharist and Jesus' physical Body, but does nothing to say they're physically the same thing. Which goes right back to the weakness I've exposed in the stand by "accidents vs substance" argument.

If by 'substance' you mean a deeper reality than the mere physical existence, then we're in agreement and shouldn't be anathematizing one another. And this stance fits rather well with this, rather odd, analogy. It fits very well within the Bread and Wine, which is itself a beautiful analogy ...

Ortho, are you sick? Is that why you're here during working hours?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I think I'm doing pretty good for a guy who died last year. Major heart disease. Let's see... seven bypasses, four stents, eight heart attacks. Let's just say I tire easily. No reflection on present company.

I monitor computers 24/7. I manage dozens of servers from work and from home. I'm always connected so I almost always keep a browser open and a yrefresh pointed to here... I'm at home now monitoring systems for utilities. Got to keep the kids fed.

I agree that there are different levels of sin. I discuss mine with my spiritual father.

The Orthodox Churches teach that we don't know exactly when the change happens, we don't know exactly what has changed, but we trust that it HAS because HE taught HIS liturgy around it. We obey, perhaps to a fault.

Forgive me...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yup I know that and know that well. but our problem (as a species) is much more frequently hitting the target we aim for, just aiming for the wrong target.

Still, the sin of looking is not the same as the action of doing; not that it's any less sin. So to put this in context w/ the discussion here, it could show a Spiritual connection btw the elements of the Eucharist and Jesus' physical Body, but does nothing to say they're physically the same thing. Which goes right back to the weakness I've exposed in the stand by "accidents vs substance" argument.

If by 'substance' you mean a deeper reality than the mere physical existence, then we're in agreement and shouldn't be anathematizing one another. And this stance fits rather well with this, rather odd, analogy. It fits very well within the Bread and Wine, which is itself a beautiful analogy ...

Ortho, are you sick? Is that why you're here during working hours?

I think the point was .

that heart lusting is adultery

in the same way

that the eucharist is the body of Christ .

 

[razeontherock]

[ETA, this was in response to Ortho's last post]

Well that adds meaning to the EO blessing "many years," now doesn't it? May He grant you many years!

And your last statement, on topic for this thread, is exactly what I get and have always gotten from "just reading the Bible." Imagine that! Communion was wonderful yesterday, as was the sermon. I'm still a little uncomfortable with the way it's administered there, but I did get to share the hymn written by Cristos Anesti's favorite St, the one from Syria. (Isaac?) Can't believe I've missed the wine being fire all these years ... at times I've felt that, knowing it was grape juice, and wrote it off to being strong wine that morning :o

 

[razeontherock]

I think the point was .

that heart lusting is adultery

in the same way

that the eucharist is the body of Christ .

A Spiritual reality, nothing transubstantiated about it

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

[And your last statement, on topic for this thread, is exactly what I get and have always gotten from "just reading the Bible."

Now... that's not quite an altogether 'true' statement is it? You have many years of training do you not?

Who were your best teachers? You seem to be a very well educated man.

My grandfather was one of my best and the first to take up time with me on the subject of Chirst. Oh.. and he was a Southern Baptist, I have not met a 'better' man yet.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

A Spiritual reality, nothing transubstantiated about it

Lol!

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yep. Sin = missing the mark of perfection (as if aiming an arrow at a target)

Forgive me...

then we all sin in everything we do. everything. Feeding homeless people is sinful, for example.

 

[razeontherock]

Now... that's not quite an altogether 'true' statement is it? You have many years of training do you not?

Who were your best teachers? You seem to be a very well educated man.

My grandfather was one of my best and the first to take up time with me on the subject of Chirst.

Actually, it is true. I read those parts while quite young. Once I finally got interested in actually living Faith and not just reading about it, I tended to value teachers who didn't contradict what I had discovered on my own. Since then it would be hard for me to say I've had a better (human) teacher than my first Pastor, who set me apart for ministry, took me under his wing, and vouched for me.

That ended in 1986, and really the best (human) confirmation since then I've had showing me that it was the Spirit of G-d all along, even from before kindergarten, is what I've learned of EO here. Uncanny!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

then we all sin in everything we do. everything. Feeding homeless people is sinful, for example.

Well yes... in a manner of speaking, we are incapable of doing anything perfectly. And we can do nothing without Christ.

The best laid plans of mice and men...

I asked one time why the liturgy was so hard to learn... and a bishop told me that it was that way so that the old men wouldn't get proud.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Well yes... in a manner of speaking, we are incapable of doing anything perfectly. And we can do nothing without Christ.

The best laid plans of mice and men...

I asked one time why the liturgy was so hard to learn... and a bishop told me that it was that way so that the old men wouldn't get proud.

Forgive me...

except that we label this a sin, and this not a sin... and if we are unable to do anything perfectly, and the concept of sin is missing the mark, everything is sinful.

which makes me wonder why we lable one thing a sin, or not, if everthing is sin.

It's either a defined action, or a concept... it can't be both, I don't think.

 

[razeontherock]

Well there's a big concept! Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin."

Is it a stretch to apply this to the Eucharist?