Defending God

[Christ's_Warrior]

In the Physical and Life Science sub forums where Atheists continually attack our God, why are you guys with great knowledge of science not there actually defending?

Instead of arguing against each other (TE vs YEC) Christians vs Christians, you guys who have been given an amazing gift should be actively defend our faith against the enemy.

I have no idea about science, so therefore it is hard for me to debate these people, but you guys should be on these forums debating and debunking these atheists, this is the gift given to you by God so please please utilise it.

Sorry if this post seems strange, but honestly I think it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[gluadys]

In the Physical and Life Science sub forums where Atheists continually attack our God, why are you guys with great knowledge of science not there actually defending?

Instead of arguing against each other (TE vs YEC) Christians vs Christians, you guys who have been given an amazing gift should be actively defend our faith against the enemy.

I have no idea about science, so therefore it is hard for me to debate these people, but you guys should be on these forums debating and debunking these atheists, this is the gift given to you by God so please please utilise it.

Sorry if this post seems strange, but honestly I think it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

First, most of us have been on that forum at one time or another.
And why would we argue against science that we agree with?

I expect one reason many of us do not participate in those debates frequently is that it is not OUR God who is being attacked. It is a caricature of God that is derived from a concordist interpretation of scripture. Given a YEC (or similar) interpretation of scripture, God must be the foolish, cruel, deceptive, etc. Being who is under attack.

And, frankly, I think that caricature of God ought to be attacked. This is the very reason we exhort fellow Christians to let go of a dogmatic defense of anti-evolutionary "creationism": as a false doctrine, it exposes God and Christians to needless and harmful ridicule. The caricature deserves ridicule, but the ridicule is then extended to all Christians and hurts all of us who have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is why I see YECism as one of the most effective producers of atheists. That is why I see the primary need to be a Christian repudiation of YECism.

 

[crawfish]

In the Physical and Life Science sub forums where Atheists continually attack our God, why are you guys with great knowledge of science not there actually defending?

Instead of arguing against each other (TE vs YEC) Christians vs Christians, you guys who have been given an amazing gift should be actively defend our faith against the enemy.

I have no idea about science, so therefore it is hard for me to debate these people, but you guys should be on these forums debating and debunking these atheists, this is the gift given to you by God so please please utilise it.

Sorry if this post seems strange, but honestly I think it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

We ARE defending Christianity and God. Think about this - if a skeptic knows some scientific fact (and let's assume for this argument that it is a fact) and then a believer who really doesn't understand the science tries to argue that it is not a fact because of the bible, who comes out to the knowledgeable crowd as the one who has the "truth"?

The simple truth is, if we try to push things as Christian that aren't true, it hurts the cause of Christ. It hurts our credibility in the things that matter such as the Gospel of God's grace. Why should people believe us about the larger things when we can't even get the smaller things right?

I want to point out - I worship with mostly creationists, both young- and old-earth. I do service with them. I break bread with them. I love them, and they love me. I am firmly against the efforts of the "new atheists" to discredit Christianity, and I am adamant against their claims that science discredits God. Atheists have a word they they like to use to describe creationists - "nutjobs". They also have a word that they like to use to describe TE's - "nutjobs". They don't like us any more than they like traditional creationists.

 

[Papias]

I'll second Gluadys' point.

Plus, the very fact that Christians are susceptable to YECism makes it extremely important for people like me to counter YECs inside Christianity. If they suceeded in getting nearly all of us Christians to deny the real world, then it would be like shooting fish in a barrel for Atheists to claim that Christianity is a delusion. If Christianity is to survive into the 22nd century, we need to start to rein in, and educate our YECs. So in helping YECs learn to stop hurting Christianity, I don't have much free time for arguing with atheists. Because YECs are the biggest threat to Christianity, my time is best spent helping them.

Good question.

Papias

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

This is the very reason we exhort fellow Christians to let go of a dogmatic defense of anti-evolutionary "creationism": as a false doctrine, it exposes God and Christians to needless and harmful ridicule. The caricature deserves ridicule, but the ridicule is then extended to all Christians and hurts all of us who have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is why I see YECism as one of the most effective producers of atheists. That is why I see the primary need to be a Christian repudiation of YECism.

YECs are the biggest threat to Christianity, my time is best spent helping them.

Sorry but I have to agree with Christ's Warrior here - we spend too much time squabbling among ourselves, so much so that we ignore more serious issues.

Young Earth Creationism is not the biggest threat facing Christianity. Our biggest threats come from religious persecution (not in places such as the USA or UK but certainly in many Middle-Eastern countries) and conflict within Christianity itself: the IRA and the paedophile scandal within the catholic church for example.

Creationism is, to put it politely, redundant. But I would much rather have a long and pointless conversation with a YEC than risk being bombed - either by a Muslim or by a so-called 'fellow' Christian.

 

[gluadys]

Sorry but I have to agree with Christ's Warrior here - we spend too much time squabbling among ourselves, so much so that we ignore more serious issues.

Young Earth Creationism is not the biggest threat facing Christianity. Our biggest threats come from religious persecution (not in places such as the USA or UK but certainly in many Middle-Eastern countries) and conflict within Christianity itself: the IRA and the paedophile scandal within the catholic church for example.

Creationism is, to put it politely, redundant. But I would much rather have a long and pointless conversation with a YEC than risk being bombed - either by a Muslim or by a so-called 'fellow' Christian.

I still think YECism is the biggest threat.

Persecution per se is not and never has been a threat to Christianity. Of course, it means that Christians are killed, imprisoned, tortured, etc. and that is all very bad stuff. But times of persecution have also been times of growth in the church. We see that in the history of the early church. We saw that more recently in the amazing growth of the hidden church in China during its days of isolation from the rest of the world.

I wouldn't wish persecution on my worst enemy, but it is not a threat to Christianity.

Priestly pedophilia is, to some extent, a threat to Christianity, because it brings the church into disrepute and that is harmful. But the harm to the church comes from the discrepancy between the action of these priests and the connivance of church authorities in protecting them rather than their victims and what everyone recognizes as Christian teaching and what should be Christian practice. However disgusted people are with the church over this (as well they should be) no one believes Christianity approves of these misdeeds.

YECism is most harmful because it claims to BE Christian teaching and is understood to be Christian teaching both by YECists and their atheist opponents. So it is a much more powerful threat to Christianity than either of the other two.


PS. Obviously I don't think we should be complacent about either persecution or pedophilia in the church either.

 

[shernren]

If knowledge of science is what it took to defend our God, then the "atheists" would be the first people to do it! Unfortunately Romans 1 tells us that "knowing the truth", the atheists of both the ancient and modern worlds still choose to reject God.

That does not mean that atheists are intractable to evangelism. But they have actively made up their mind against God; furthermore, they have often actively decided that science shows that there is no God, and I do not see the wisdom in trying to take down their atheism at the strongest point of defense. It would be like Japan starting WWII by staging a direct assault on Washington D.C. while ignoring the ill-prepared outpost of Pearl Harbor. Atheists need to be won over in their hearts as well as in their minds, and most people (myself included) cannot convey that kind of emotional message through the Internet. It takes friends and acquaintances and smiles on the street and regular social contact to start to break down the barriers to faith. Therefore, given the limited resources of time that I and other posters have, it is better for us to focus on Christians, with whom we already have some common ground.

For example, a lot of what I post on these forums is actually in-depth study of Genesis 1 and passages touching on it. Why would I do that with an atheist? That wouldn't accomplish anything with someone who believes from the start that the Bible is bunk. You can see why I would rather be talking with creationists than with atheists, because on a Christian forum, believe it or not, I would rather be talking about the Bible than about science, if I had to choose!

The other thing is that indeed, persecution is not so much something to fight as something to endure. Coming from a Muslim majority country, I know what it is like to be oppressed in one's own homeland. But it is an honour to suffer for Christ. So to Paul and the apostles, persecution was never a problem in the sense of being something that needs to be addressed and removed. Of course it is nice to not be persecuted; but the early church gloried in the persecutions it did face, and the modern church where it faces persecution often has the same attitude and receives God's blessings often in proportion to the suffering it faces.

What the apostles do spend time tackling, over many words and tears, is unhelpful and false teaching in the church. And to the extent that creationism is a teaching in the church that is either unhelpful or plain false, it needs to be called out as so by discerning Christians.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Persecution per se is not and never has been a threat to Christianity. Of course, it means that Christians are killed, imprisoned, tortured, etc. and that is all very bad stuff. But times of persecution have also been times of growth in the church. We see that in the history of the early church. We saw that more recently in the amazing growth of the hidden church in China during its days of isolation from the rest of the world.

I wouldn't wish persecution on my worst enemy, but it is not a threat to Christianity.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Persecution is always a threat, to any religion. I know alot of people who live in developed countries whine about 'persecution' and the rest of us are sensible enough to ignore them, but in doing so we also ignore Christians from other parts of the world who are genuinely being threatened, tortured and killed for their beliefs. This isn't something we should tolerate in the name of 'spiritual growth', this is something wrong which needs to be stopped.

I don't mean to insult you but it seem, well, rather short-sighted to say YEC is more of a threat to Christianity than violence and intolerance. Only those who live in countries with religious freedom could say that. There are people in the world who couldn't care less about whether we believe the universe is 6,000 years old or 14 billion years old. They only care about the fact we believe in Christ. Until the YECs develop a military branch and start bombing science museums it will never be the main threat to Christianity.

Sorry if it seems like I'm ranting, but the fight between creationism and evolution pales in comparison to suicide bombings and sexual abuse.

 

[laconicstudent]

A study comparing the rate of apostasy as influenced by religious violence and pseudoscience (YEC) would be interesting. Factorial design with science (normal, pseudo-) and religious violence (none, present) on religiosity (score on some scale, interview, affiliation over time).

I'm not seeing evidence that YEC isn't as big of a threat as religious violence.

 

[Chesterton]

I'd thought about the question in the OP before and I agreed with it, but I also agree with Gluadys and others points too. Still, the small number of creationist Christians that post in there are just such cannon fodder, and so the focus is always attacking creationism and the atheists really think they are attacking Christianity. There are some folks in this Origins forum I admire, and more than once while reading the science forum I've thought "gee I wish so-and-so were here to respond to this" because they could do it a lot better than I. I do wish some of you guys would peruse the science forum just a bit from time to time.

 

[gluadys]

I'd thought about the question in the OP before and I agreed with it, but I also agree with Gluadys and others points too. Still, the small number of creationist Christians that post in there are just such cannon fodder, and so the focus is always attacking creationism and the atheists really think they are attacking Christianity. There are some folks in this Origins forum I admire, and more than once while reading the science forum I've thought "gee I wish so-and-so were here to respond to this" because they could do it a lot better than I. I do wish some of you guys would peruse the science forum just a bit from time to time.

I'm not averse to posting in the other forum and I have done so from time to time when someone has alerted me to a thread where they think I might have something useful to say.

I used to post there much more frequently for when I first joined CF I wasn't aware of this one.

You may have a point: if the only Christians they see over there are anti-science, the atheists feel they have a free reign attacking Christianity along with anti-science. Perhaps TEs ought to drop in and remind them that there is Christian belief that does not deny science.

 

[gluadys]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Persecution is always a threat, to any religion. I know alot of people who live in developed countries whine about 'persecution' and the rest of us are sensible enough to ignore them, but in doing so we also ignore Christians from other parts of the world who are genuinely being threatened, tortured and killed for their beliefs. This isn't something we should tolerate in the name of 'spiritual growth', this is something wrong which needs to be stopped.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that we should tolerate it; that was far from my mind. What I meant is that we should not fear it will destroy Christianity. But we should also defend anyone who is being persecuted. There is no excuse for religious, or ethnic or political or any other sort of persecution and it should always be strongly opposed.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

A study comparing the rate of apostasy as influenced by religious violence and pseudoscience (YEC) would be interesting. Factorial design with science (normal, pseudo-) and religious violence (none, present) on religiosity (score on some scale, interview, affiliation over time).

I'm not seeing evidence that YEC isn't as big of a threat as religious violence.

Let me put this in a different perspective: here is a forum for people who believe the Earth is flat.


I initially thought this was a satire site, probably for making fun of creationists, but it appears they are serious. They genuinely seem to believe the Earth is flat. Amazingly - and this completely took me by surprise - many of the members of this forum are atheists.

• FAQs
• Calling earth theory creationism

There are also, unfortunately, several christians who also believe the Earth is flat. So we could argue flat earth theory is compatable with both religion and atheism ...

My point is that I doubt there are many atheists who think flat earth theory is a genuine threat to their beliefs (or lack thereof) or to science. There aren't many of them who think "People turn away from atheism because they think atheists believe the Earth is flat." The same should go for Christianity and YEC.

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

Guys,

We are never to bury our talents and science is your talent, use it to defend and proclaim the Gospel.

Instead of focusing on YEC and infighting, let us examine our motives and question where our heart truly lies concerning the Gospel.

The Science forums are bombarded by atheists who state that science some how negates God. I am not asking any of you to question the science being asserted, I am asking you to challenge their assertions that science negates God and to debate them on a scientific level.

God Bless you.

 

[laconicstudent]

The Science forums are bombarded by atheists who state that science some how negates God. I am not asking any of you to question the science being asserted, I am asking you to challenge their assertions that science negates God and to debate them on a scientific level.

Unlike you, I actually post in the science forum. No, it is not "bombarded by atheists who state that science some how negates God," because unlike far too many Christians on these forums, atheists understand that science cannot address God and therefore don't make such ridiculous statements.

 

[Mallon]

The Science forums are bombarded by atheists who state that science some how negates God.

We've got YECs here who say the same thing.

 

[Papias]

Strange wrote:

Young Earth Creationism is not the biggest threat facing Christianity. Our biggest threats come from religious persecution (not in places such as the USA or UK but certainly in many Middle-Eastern countries) and conflict within Christianity itself: the IRA and the paedophile scandal within the catholic church for example.

There are two main reasons why I don't think persecution is nearly as significant as YEC in hurting Christianity today.

Reason #1. Simple math. The bulk of Christians are not being perscuted, and so for them, without being persecuted, they are much more likely to lose their faith due to YECs saying they have to deny reality to be Christian, than they are to persecution. For instance, there are over a billion (1,000 million) Christians in the developed areas of Europe, North America and Australia. Statistics show that about 0.1% leave Christianity each year. That amounts to 3,000 people leaving Christianity every day .

Compare that to persecuted regions. Iran and Iraq together amount to only about 1 million Christians. Even if each and every one of them were instantly killed by persecution, 99.9% of Christians would remain.

Persecution can't be significant because only a tiny proportion of Christians are in areas where they even could be persecuted. You don't have to take my word for it, just do the math yourself.

Reason #2. If persecution was significant enough to have an effect, it would be to help, not hurt, Christianity. We've seen this throughout history, that persecution strenghtens Christianity. Tertullian even noticed this in the 3rd century, when he famously said that "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the saints".

That's why some non-persecuted Christians fabricate being "persecuted" in America, like griping about a "war on Christmas" and so on.

sex abuse scandals are likely significant. I'm not sure YEC is the #1 threat to Christianity, but it seems to be up there, and certainly higher than persecution.

Christ's warrior wrote:

We are never to bury our talents and science is your talent, use it to defend and proclaim the Gospel.

I'm certainly not burying my talent. I'm using it as effectively as possible to preserve Christianity as a reasonable option.

Spending most of my time arguing with atheists over evolution wouldn't help much, because many of them agree that God is a separate question, and we only agree on evolution itself anyway. It's much more helpful to Christianity for me to address those who are sinking our ship from the inside.

Papias.

 

[shernren]

There are some folks in this Origins forum I admire, and more than once while reading the science forum I've thought "gee I wish so-and-so were here to respond to this" because they could do it a lot better than I. I do wish some of you guys would peruse the science forum just a bit from time to time.

And you can just tell us. A lot of the chatter there comes from dad and AV1611VET and Split Rock; you know how utterly intellectually stimulating those conversations are, don't you?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Persecution can't be significant because only a tiny proportion of Christians are in areas where they even could be persecuted. You don't have to take my word for it, just do the math yourself.

Oh, so only a few christians are being persecuted. That's OK then.
And even if your calculations are correct, you seem to be under the impression that people living as atheists is somehow much worse than people dying as Christians.

If persecution was significant enough to have an effect, it would be to help, not hurt, Christianity. We've seen this throughout history, that persecution strenghtens Christianity.

As I mentioned to Gluadys, we shouldn't have to put up with persecution in the name of 'spiritual growth'. Using the argument that "persecution strengthens Christianity" would be like saying "sexism strengthens feminism" or "segregation strengthens Civil Rights". Strength comes not from being persecuted but from fighting persecution. I did also emphasise that genuine persecution of Christians happens in places such as the Middle East rather than developed countries like the USA.

Please forgive the sarcasm, but I think we have our priorities all wrong. Perhaps one of the reasons YECs fail to change is because they see evolutionists (theist or atheist) as arrogant - evidently teaching them about dinosaurs is of more importance than defending them from terrorists.

 

[shernren]

Please forgive the sarcasm, but I think we have our priorities all wrong. Perhaps one of the reasons YECs fail to change is because they see evolutionists (theist or atheist) as arrogant - evidently teaching them about dinosaurs is of more importance than defending them from terrorists.

Most American climate-skeptic Christians are also YECs, who indirectly help to sustain our world's irrational thirst for oil, thereby giving undue political influence to Middle Eastern Muslim nation states, allowing them to get away with persecuting Christians without global outrage. So YECs are hardly defenders of persecuted Christians by that measure.