Can Christianity survive without the Pope?

[razeontherock]

This is history, not sarcasm. Church leadership is a plurality of equals, whose decisions should never be too surprising to the congregation. If the Eastern congregations decided their Bishops were wrong for submitting to the Pope, it was within their right. And why did the congregations of the West not submit to a plurality of equals in leadership?

 

[Rhamiel]

This is history, not sarcasm. Church leadership is a plurality of equals, whose decisions should never be too surprising to the congregation. If the Eastern congregations decided their Bishops were wrong for submitting to the Pope, it was within their right. And why did the congregations of the West not submit to a plurality of equals in leadership?

authority does not rise up from a congregation but rather authoirty, all authoirty come from God
while all Bishops are equal the role of the Bishop of Rome is as patriarch of the West and to act as mediator between the patriarchs if there is a problem

 

[Montalban]

The council you are talking about was the Council of Florence.

Ah, okay.

At that council the Eastern and Western Bishops agreed on the theological issues and ended the schism.

It was the people in the east who rejected the authority of their Bishops and continued the schism.

Yes, they sent delegates to the Council and those delegates fearing that no help would come accepted complete and utter surrender to the Pope.

The people back in Constantinople said if that's the price for help, we'd rather be under Islam.

We lost our independence but kept the faith.

What's that say about the RCC? A whole group of people would prefer to suffer persecution at the hands of 'infadels' rather than submit to the RCC

 

[Secundulus]

Ah, okay.



Yes, they sent delegates to the Council and those delegates fearing that no help would come accepted complete and utter surrender to the Pope.

The people back in Constantinople said if that's the price for help, we'd rather be under Islam.

We lost our independence but kept the faith.

What's that say about the RCC? A whole group of people would prefer to suffer persecution at the hands of 'infadels' rather than submit to the RCC

What it says to me is that the East has a strange notion of Apostolic authority.

Secondly, the political situation of the West largely prevented any large scale expedition to the east. The English and French were at the tail end of the 100 years war and the Spanish were still fighting Muslims in Spain.

 

[Montalban]

What it says to me is that the East has a strange notion of Apostolic authority.

No. We accept that all bishops are equal. You go for the fiction that one is more equal than the others.

Secondly, the political situation of the West largely prevented any large scale expedition to the east. The English and French were at the tail end of the 100 years war and the Spanish were still fighting Muslims in Spain.

The Spanish were ALWAYS fighting the Moslems in Spain - that's not something that prevented several crusades.

It is true that the Hundred Years War was going on at this time.

However, why offer help if you can't provide any?

Furthermore England and France aren't all of Europe (France was a lot smaller then)

 

[Secundulus]

No. We accept that all bishops are equal. You go for the fiction that one is more equal than the others.


The Spanish were ALWAYS fighting the Moslems in Spain - that's not something that prevented several crusades.

It is true that the Hundred Years War was going on at this time.

However, why offer help if you can't provide any?

Furthermore England and France aren't all of Europe (France was a lot smaller then)

The Pope can only provide the help that the Kings give him. He asked for it and the Western Kings declined.

 

[Secundulus]

Fall of Constantinople - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

n the summer of 1452, when Rumeli Hisari was completed and the threat had become imminent, Constantine wrote to the Pope, promising to implement the Union, which was declared valid by a half-hearted imperial court on Tuesday 12 December 1452. Although he was eager for an advantage, Pope Nicholas V did not have the influence the Byzantines thought he had over the Western Kings and Princes, some of whom were wary of increasing Papal control, and these had not the wherewithal to contribute to the effort, especially in light of the weakened state of France and England from the Hundred Years' War, Spain being in the final part of the Reconquista, the internecine fighting in the German Principalities, and Hungary and Poland's defeat at the Battle of Varna of 1444.

 

[Montalban]

The Pope can only provide the help that the Kings give him. He asked for it and the Western Kings declined.

Yes, I accept the offer was disingenuous

 

[Secundulus]

Yes, I accept the offer was disingenuous

Ok

 

[Rhamiel]

Ah, okay.



Yes, they sent delegates to the Council and those delegates fearing that no help would come accepted complete and utter surrender to the Pope.

The people back in Constantinople said if that's the price for help, we'd rather be under Islam.

We lost our independence but kept the faith.

What's that say about the RCC? A whole group of people would prefer to suffer persecution at the hands of 'infadels' rather than submit to the RCC

you missrepresent the council, it was not "utter surrender", it lasted about seven years and a lot of issues were talked out
oh and the fact that at the time the monastic orders of the EO would rather be under islamic rulers then to go back into union with Rome... well that speaks to the spirit of pride and racism agianst the west that was alive in the EO monestaries at the time

 

[Montalban]

you missrepresent the council, it was not "utter surrender", it lasted about seven years and a lot of issues were talked out
oh and the fact that at the time the monastic orders of the EO would rather be under islamic rulers then to go back into union with Rome... well that speaks to the spirit of pride and racism agianst the west that was alive in the EO monestaries at the time

I'm not aware that the Orthodox were there over seven years. You might know something I don't. 1438 is when they arrived, not 1431 when the Council began, but if you know otherwise I'm sure you'll enlighten me.

It was utter - because the demand was that we change faith - that we make changes in faith. I do appreciate that most of the talking was over the filioque but not all of it.

And that Council itself was divided!

What racisim are you talking about?

 

[Montalban]

Ok

The Pope had immediate control over the Papal States, and was technically soverign over several European states (the latter point I believe was still in operation - for I do know that much earlier John of England made England a 'papal fief')

 

[Secundulus]

It is also worth noting that the plague had killed around 50% of Europe's population during the 14th century.

 

[sunlover1]

authority does not rise up from a congregation but rather authoirty, all authoirty come from God

Amen Rhamiel.

(Do you believe then, that tyrants are appointed by God too? Just curious)



"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them,
Ye know that they which are accounted
to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them;
and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
But so shall it not be among you:
but whosoever will be great among you,
shall be your minister:"

while all Bishops are equal the role of the Bishop of Rome is as patriarch of the West and to act as mediator between the patriarchs if there is a problem

So then who, iyo, was Jesus speaking of in the passage above?

 

[Rhamiel]

Amen Rhamiel.

(Do you believe then, that tyrants are appointed by God too? Just curious)



"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them,
Ye know that they which are accounted
to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them;
and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
But so shall it not be among you:
but whosoever will be great among you,
shall be your minister:"



So then who, iyo, was Jesus speaking of in the passage above?

God uses the leaders of nations as either a blessing or a curse upon people
as for the the quote from our Lord, He was talking to the Apostles, how they should act

 

[Rhamiel]

What racisim are you talking about?

xenophobia
that was the main reason that the common man in greece did not want reunion with rome at the time of the council

 

[Montalban]

It is also worth noting that the plague had killed around 50% of Europe's population during the 14th century.

100 years earlier!

 

[Secundulus]

100 years earlier!

Do you think it had fully recovered?

It did not begin to significantly recover until the 16th century.

In the early to mid 15th century is was bottomed out.

 

[sunlover1]

God uses the leaders of nations as either a blessing or a curse upon people
as for the the quote from our Lord, He was talking to the Apostles, how they should act

This was the part I was considering.
(But we all have our own opinions and choices to make.
God bless you!)
and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
But so shall it not be among you:

 

[razeontherock]

Secondly, the political situation of the West largely prevented any large scale expedition to the east. The English and French were at the tail end of the 100 years war and the Spanish were still fighting Muslims in Spain.

This is a piece of history I never understood. What about Rome?