Please do me the favor of showing my ignorant soul some scripture that supports abortion.
Abundant blessings.
Abundant blessings.
Show me scripture that supports ABORTION.
- Thread starter Cain Spencer
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lux et lex
light and law
Only if you show me scripture that prohibits abortion directly. Abortion was around during Biblical times...there must be something in the Bible that talks directly about abortion.
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lux et lex
light and law
What about original sin? If you subscribe to that doctrine, clearly no one is truly innocent.
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lux et lex
light and law
Let me translate for the folks at home "I don't want to do that because I know there is nothing"
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Phinehas2
Guest
Lux et Lex,
And like us, the folks at home know you are wrong and unwilling to accept the truth.
Psalm 139, Job 31, Jeremiah 1.
And like us, the folks at home know you are wrong and unwilling to accept the truth.
Psalm 139, Job 31, Jeremiah 1.
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lux et lex
light and law
Psalm 139
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.
1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me. 2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
Nothing about abortion here, let's try the next one...
Job 31
1 "I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a girl.
2 For what is man's lot from God above,
his heritage from the Almighty on high?
3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
4 Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?
5 "If I have walked in falsehood
or my foot has hurried after deceit-
6 let God weigh me in honest scales
and he will know that I am blameless-
7 if my steps have turned from the path,
if my heart has been led by my eyes,
or if my hands have been defiled,
8 then may others eat what I have sown,
and may my crops be uprooted.
9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman,
or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10 then may my wife grind another man's grain,
and may other men sleep with her.
11 For that would have been shameful,
a sin to be judged.
12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction [a] ;
it would have uprooted my harvest.
13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants
when they had a grievance against me,
14 what will I do when God confronts me?
What will I answer when called to account?
15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor
or let the eyes of the widow grow weary,
17 if I have kept my bread to myself,
not sharing it with the fatherless-
18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father,
and from my birth I guided the widow-
19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing,
or a needy man without a garment,
20 and his heart did not bless me
for warming him with the fleece from my sheep,
21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless,
knowing that I had influence in court,
22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder,
let it be broken off at the joint.
23 For I dreaded destruction from God,
and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.
24 "If I have put my trust in gold
or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,'
25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth,
the fortune my hands had gained,
26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance
or the moon moving in splendor,
27 so that my heart was secretly enticed
and my hand offered them a kiss of homage,
28 then these also would be sins to be judged,
for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.
29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune
or gloated over the trouble that came to him-
30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin
by invoking a curse against his life-
31 if the men of my household have never said,
'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-
32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street,
for my door was always open to the traveler-
33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, [b]
by hiding my guilt in my heart
34 because I so feared the crowd
and so dreaded the contempt of the clans
that I kept silent and would not go outside
35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me!
I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me;
let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder,
I would put it on like a crown.
37 I would give him an account of my every step;
like a prince I would approach him.)-
38 "if my land cries out against me
and all its furrows are wet with tears,
39 if I have devoured its yield without payment
or broken the spirit of its tenants,
40 then let briers come up instead of wheat
and weeds instead of barley."
The words of Job are ended.
Still nothing about abortion. Okay one more try...
Jeremiah 1
1 The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. 2 The word of the LORD came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah, 3 and through the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the eleventh year of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile. The Call of Jeremiah
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
6 "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child."
7 But the LORD said to me, "Do not say, 'I am only a child.' You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD.
9 Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, "Now, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."
11 The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you see, Jeremiah?"
"I see the branch of an almond tree," I replied.
12 The LORD said to me, "You have seen correctly, for I am watching [b] to see that my word is fulfilled."
13 The word of the LORD came to me again: "What do you see?"
"I see a boiling pot, tilting away from the north," I answered.
14 The LORD said to me, "From the north disaster will be poured out on all who live in the land. 15 I am about to summon all the peoples of the northern kingdoms," declares the LORD.
"Their kings will come and set up their thrones
in the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem;
they will come against all her surrounding walls
and against all the towns of Judah.
16 I will pronounce my judgments on my people
because of their wickedness in forsaking me,
in burning incense to other gods
and in worshiping what their hands have made.
17 "Get yourself ready! Stand up and say to them whatever I command you. Do not be terrified by them, or I will terrify you before them. 18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land—against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land. 19 They will fight against you but will not overcome you, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD.
Nope, no abortion here either. Thanks for playing!
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.
1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me. 2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
Nothing about abortion here, let's try the next one...
Job 31
1 "I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a girl.
2 For what is man's lot from God above,
his heritage from the Almighty on high?
3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
4 Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?
5 "If I have walked in falsehood
or my foot has hurried after deceit-
6 let God weigh me in honest scales
and he will know that I am blameless-
7 if my steps have turned from the path,
if my heart has been led by my eyes,
or if my hands have been defiled,
8 then may others eat what I have sown,
and may my crops be uprooted.
9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman,
or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10 then may my wife grind another man's grain,
and may other men sleep with her.
11 For that would have been shameful,
a sin to be judged.
12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction [a] ;
it would have uprooted my harvest.
13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants
when they had a grievance against me,
14 what will I do when God confronts me?
What will I answer when called to account?
15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor
or let the eyes of the widow grow weary,
17 if I have kept my bread to myself,
not sharing it with the fatherless-
18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father,
and from my birth I guided the widow-
19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing,
or a needy man without a garment,
20 and his heart did not bless me
for warming him with the fleece from my sheep,
21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless,
knowing that I had influence in court,
22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder,
let it be broken off at the joint.
23 For I dreaded destruction from God,
and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.
24 "If I have put my trust in gold
or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,'
25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth,
the fortune my hands had gained,
26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance
or the moon moving in splendor,
27 so that my heart was secretly enticed
and my hand offered them a kiss of homage,
28 then these also would be sins to be judged,
for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.
29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune
or gloated over the trouble that came to him-
30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin
by invoking a curse against his life-
31 if the men of my household have never said,
'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-
32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street,
for my door was always open to the traveler-
33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, [b]
by hiding my guilt in my heart
34 because I so feared the crowd
and so dreaded the contempt of the clans
that I kept silent and would not go outside
35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me!
I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me;
let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder,
I would put it on like a crown.
37 I would give him an account of my every step;
like a prince I would approach him.)-
38 "if my land cries out against me
and all its furrows are wet with tears,
39 if I have devoured its yield without payment
or broken the spirit of its tenants,
40 then let briers come up instead of wheat
and weeds instead of barley."
The words of Job are ended.
Still nothing about abortion. Okay one more try...
Jeremiah 1
1 The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. 2 The word of the LORD came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah, 3 and through the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the eleventh year of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile. The Call of Jeremiah
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
6 "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child."
7 But the LORD said to me, "Do not say, 'I am only a child.' You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD.
9 Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, "Now, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."
11 The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you see, Jeremiah?"
"I see the branch of an almond tree," I replied.
12 The LORD said to me, "You have seen correctly, for I am watching [b] to see that my word is fulfilled."
13 The word of the LORD came to me again: "What do you see?"
"I see a boiling pot, tilting away from the north," I answered.
14 The LORD said to me, "From the north disaster will be poured out on all who live in the land. 15 I am about to summon all the peoples of the northern kingdoms," declares the LORD.
"Their kings will come and set up their thrones
in the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem;
they will come against all her surrounding walls
and against all the towns of Judah.
16 I will pronounce my judgments on my people
because of their wickedness in forsaking me,
in burning incense to other gods
and in worshiping what their hands have made.
17 "Get yourself ready! Stand up and say to them whatever I command you. Do not be terrified by them, or I will terrify you before them. 18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land—against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land. 19 They will fight against you but will not overcome you, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD.
Nope, no abortion here either. Thanks for playing!
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Phinehas2
Guest
Lux et Lex,
But I and others do have
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
The passages do not mention abortion but abortion is terminating what it does mention, a life God already knows and is creating in the womb.
Cant be any more patient with you than that, now its your turn, address the OP question and show us scripture that supports abortion or cease trolling.
But I and others do have
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
The author knew it, I and others know it, you don’t. We know it’s the heart of God.
God forms us within our mothers womb.
The passages do not mention abortion but abortion is terminating what it does mention, a life God already knows and is creating in the womb.
Cant be any more patient with you than that, now its your turn, address the OP question and show us scripture that supports abortion or cease trolling.
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Of course we are all sinful, but an unborn baby is innocent in the sense that it has never done anything to us that we should kill it. Otherwise we could all go around killing each other.
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lux et lex
light and law
Well, as I have pointed out using the "pro life" side, no where in the Bible does the word "abortion" appear. However, in Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Also, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. In Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, there is a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder.
And then the verse that states it the best...
"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Exodus 21:22-25
And then the verse that states it the best...
"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Exodus 21:22-25
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Well, deliver you did! Thankyou, could I ask (if you don't mind) where did you get those scriptures from? A semina or did you look them up yourself? Either way, thank you very much for showing me. I'm content now.
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lux et lex
light and law
I've had this argument many times. I know where to get my resources. I'm part of a pro choice Christian group, we have discussions.
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Phinehas2
Guest
It is interesting that Lux et Lex has referred to scriptures about what humans do or should no under certain conditions, including sin, and paid no attention to the references, Psalm 139, Job 31 and Jeremiah about what God sees in His purposes.
But I would question Lux et Lex’s view on the use of counting babies born less than a month for a census as viable for abortion. I think even pro-choice would recognise that as murder.
But I would question Lux et Lex’s view on the use of counting babies born less than a month for a census as viable for abortion. I think even pro-choice would recognise that as murder.
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Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
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lux et lex
light and law
In today's time frame, yes, killing an infant is murder. But apparently in Biblical times 1 months and younger didn't matter, and weren't considered a life. So certainly terminating a pregnancy wouldn't be an issue because a life wasn't at stake.
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Phinehas2
Guest
Lux et Lex,
By the way, abortion wasn’t mentioned in the census, that’s your assumption.
Now I think God places utmost value on life, He knows the number of hairs on our head, knows us in the womb and has plans for us, He delights in our praises, and He so loved us He sent His only Son to die on the cross so that whoever believes shall have eternal life. What sort of warped understanding leads one to associate a life under two months would somehow be worthless enough to terminate?
So why did you cite it if you don’t think it is relevant?
By the way, abortion wasn’t mentioned in the census, that’s your assumption.
Now I think God places utmost value on life, He knows the number of hairs on our head, knows us in the womb and has plans for us, He delights in our praises, and He so loved us He sent His only Son to die on the cross so that whoever believes shall have eternal life. What sort of warped understanding leads one to associate a life under two months would somehow be worthless enough to terminate?
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lux et lex
light and law
Because it's from the Bible and talks about the closest thing to what would classify as a fetus. If an infant under 1 month didn't matter, surely a fetus doesn't. Abortion isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible, by the way.
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There are a lot of things that aren't mentioned in the Bible, like the Trinity, but you can figure them out by putting two and two together. We know a whole lot more about what's in the womb today than they knew then.
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AirForceTeacher
King of the Wicker People
In one of my comparative religion classes, a Jewish Rabbi explained that abortion was not against Judaism using some verses in Leviticus. I don't have them handy, but in a nutshell, if your ox got out of it's pen and killed a man's wife, you could be put to death. If your ox got out of it's pen and gored a pregnant woman, causing her to lose the baby, you paid a fine to the father (husband.) That seems to undercut the argument that abortion is murder much more than Psalm 139 supports it.
(disclaimer - I don't believe that God endorses abortion for birth control, I just can't support it directly with scripture.)
(disclaimer - I don't believe that God endorses abortion for birth control, I just can't support it directly with scripture.)
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