Experiential vs. Intellectual Christianity

[ARBITER01]

What's the difference?

Are you getting defensive? I wasn't making accusations, I was just making a statement of what I believe.

The difference is what the bible identifies. The word "subjective" does not identify a source, whereas the bible does.

 

[JEBrady]

The roles of experience and intellect are neither one primary in our knowledge of God, but are both incorporated in it.

What's primary is revelation from the Father through the Holy Spirit, and allowing that to be what we hold onto in our knowledge of God. Peter knew Jesus was the Christ because Father revealed it to him. Had nothing to do with his own intellect. Many in Israel at that time studied the scripture, which speaks of Jesus, yet they didn't recognize Him because they didn't receive the revelation of the truth.

Intellect on its own is just darkness. Why do you think there's so many different interpretations of the bible?

It breaks my heart that there is a whole generation coming up around me that never experienced a really strong move of God. Why isn't God showing up in churches today? It certainly seems like the presence of the Lord is becoming more and more rare. I think we are substituting programs for truth, a party for the presence of the Holy One. It's very sad.

 

[imperfectchristian]

The difference is what the bible identifies. The word "subjective" does not identify a source, whereas the bible does.

Could you elaborate at what you are getting at? I'm uncertain what you are trying to say.

 

[Tobias]

I have found that God speaks to me as a whole man, not just one part or another. He reveals Himself to my mind, intellect, and sense of reason just as much as to my heart and emotions.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Brady: and that is really what I am reffering to...an experience from God that results in revelation.

 

[ARBITER01]

Could you elaborate at what you are getting at? I'm uncertain what you are trying to say.

The bible describes scripture usage and teaching outside of The Holy Spirit's leading as "personal" interpretation, meaning that they are responsible for the source.

Using the word subjective to describe said interpretation does not identify a source it originates from.

It's splitting hairs a bit, but the source will be what GOD judges.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Great point! At the end of the day it is not going to matter how much I know or what I have accomplished, what will matter is...did I love my wife, did I take time out with my children to be with them, did I speak to the person everyone else was ignoring, did I help others when I saw them in need and I had what they needed, did I do it out of obligation or from a giving heart? Did I spend more time talking about love or more time giving, receiving and experiencing it?

I'm preaching at myself now.

exactly.

 

[psalms 91]

I believe that people need to meet Jesus face to face and let the Holy Spirit lead them and quit debating religion and experience a God experience

 

[JEBrady]

Brady: and that is really what I am reffering to...an experience from God that results in revelation.

Yes.

Sometimes I could wish we would be able to see each other face to face. I know it would be good.

 

[gratefulgrace]

The roles of experience and intellect are neither one primary in our knowledge of God, but are both incorporated in it.

What's primary is revelation from the Father through the Holy Spirit, and allowing that to be what we hold onto in our knowledge of God. Peter knew Jesus was the Christ because Father revealed it to him. Had nothing to do with his own intellect. Many in Israel at that time studied the scripture, which speaks of Jesus, yet they didn't recognize Him because they didn't receive the revelation of the truth.

Intellect on its own is just darkness. Why do you think there's so many different interpretations of the bible?

It breaks my heart that there is a whole generation coming up around me that never experienced a really strong move of God. Why isn't God showing up in churches today? It certainly seems like the presence of the Lord is becoming more and more rare. I think we are substituting programs for truth, a party for the presence of the Holy One. It's very sad.

Well spoken.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The problem with experience is that it is completely individual in nature. I can't share your experience and you can't share mine.

Even if we are standing in the same revival at the same time singing the same song, it is entirely possible that you and I would have completely different experiences of it.

When you attempt to share your experience with me via description, language, all I can do is relate it to my own experience, or to a certain degree attempt to imagine it, which will also probably be rooted in my own experience.

Thus, on a certain level, we either have to believe that other people's experiences are like our own, or we are simply unable to truly know anything about them.

Thus, to a certain extent you have to expect that, if you are attempting to relate your experiences to other people, they will relate them to their own experiences.

I have had great experiences of God in charismatic worship. However, when considering that I spent 30 years going to a charismatic church, they were relatively few and far between.
Granted, most sundays were 'good' experiences, but they were not special really. (which is of course true by definition because if every sunday was 'special' then special would lose its meaning).

Even back when I was fully immersed in that particular church, back when I was a teen or in my early twenties, I saw LOTS of people who had experiences and raved about how wonderful they were etc. But I knew that many of them were not true for two reasons.

#1 - the way people acted during said experiences was contrary to godliness
#2 - (more importantly) the people remained unchanged

In fact, I have to admit I might not be accurate in saying that their experiences weren't true... they may have been genuine experiences, but what I'm getting at is despite those experiences, the people really didn't know God, at least not very well. Thus even if they had a genuine experience, they really didn't encounter God in that experience in a lasting way. In which case I must ask, what good is it?

By far the best experiences I have had with God have been since I left that church and started pursuing the historic, original, faith.
They were not in revival services, but rather in prayer and meditation. I actually tear up even remembering some of them. Times where I would literally just burst out into song, or tongues because I literally felt like it was the only way I could express the joy and wonder in my spirit. Other times where I was moved to weep because of the sheer beauty of God that he was revealing to me, it was more than I could take.

I don't mean to undermine, or belittle your experiences because honestly, I don't know what they are, only you do.
However, I can only speak based on my experiences. What I can tell you based on my own experience is that the things I remember from back in my younger days in my old church were moving, sometimes to joy, other times to tears etc, they were inspirational... but they were in a sense only an introduction. The appetizer if you will. As my knowledge of God and my understanding has increased, by God's grace and guidance, it has lead me onward to deeper, more moving experiences. Not the opposite.

However, I also offer up this caution. God has always kept this in the forefront of my mind as well... do not seek experiences. Seek God.

Seeking experiences is fundamentally selfish in nature. Its like the lover who constantly demands that their lover provide them with romance... they really aren't focusing on their lover, but rather on themselves and their own desires.
Seek God, seek his desires. Be willing to go without experience if that is what is required to know God.

I should also clarify that when I talk about knowing God, I'm not talking merely about study. That is only one small part. Much more important than study is prayer and meditation.

 

[DianeL]

Simon Templar,

Both your posts here reminded me of Brother Lawrence, have you read his book (very small account of his life and conversion) of 'Practice the Presence of God'?

Brother Lawrence

I also agree that prayer and meditation accomplish more in the renewing of my mind and a deeper understanding of the awesomeness of God. It's hard to put in words. I guess you struck a cord in me with your comments. Thanks.

As for the op, I think both, but as JE Brady mentioned - they are not primary

 

[ARBITER01]

The problem with experience is that it is completely individual in nature. I can't share your experience and you can't share mine.

Even if we are standing in the same revival at the same time singing the same song, it is entirely possible that you and I would have completely different experiences of it.

When you attempt to share your experience with me via description, language, all I can do is relate it to my own experience, or to a certain degree attempt to imagine it, which will also probably be rooted in my own experience.

Thus, on a certain level, we either have to believe that other people's experiences are like our own, or we are simply unable to truly know anything about them.

Thus, to a certain extent you have to expect that, if you are attempting to relate your experiences to other people, they will relate them to their own experiences.

I have had great experiences of God in charismatic worship. However, when considering that I spent 30 years going to a charismatic church, they were relatively few and far between.
Granted, most sundays were 'good' experiences, but they were not special really. (which is of course true by definition because if every sunday was 'special' then special would lose its meaning).

Even back when I was fully immersed in that particular church, back when I was a teen or in my early twenties, I saw LOTS of people who had experiences and raved about how wonderful they were etc. But I knew that many of them were not true for two reasons.

#1 - the way people acted during said experiences was contrary to godliness
#2 - (more importantly) the people remained unchanged

In fact, I have to admit I might not be accurate in saying that their experiences weren't true... they may have been genuine experiences, but what I'm getting at is despite those experiences, the people really didn't know God, at least not very well. Thus even if they had a genuine experience, they really didn't encounter God in that experience in a lasting way. In which case I must ask, what good is it?

By far the best experiences I have had with God have been since I left that church and started pursuing the historic, original, faith.
They were not in revival services, but rather in prayer and meditation. I actually tear up even remembering some of them. Times where I would literally just burst out into song, or tongues because I literally felt like it was the only way I could express the joy and wonder in my spirit. Other times where I was moved to weep because of the sheer beauty of God that he was revealing to me, it was more than I could take.

I don't mean to undermine, or belittle your experiences because honestly, I don't know what they are, only you do.
However, I can only speak based on my experiences. What I can tell you based on my own experience is that the things I remember from back in my younger days in my old church were moving, sometimes to joy, other times to tears etc, they were inspirational... but they were in a sense only an introduction. The appetizer if you will. As my knowledge of God and my understanding has increased, by God's grace and guidance, it has lead me onward to deeper, more moving experiences. Not the opposite.

However, I also offer up this caution. God has always kept this in the forefront of my mind as well... do not seek experiences. Seek God.

Seeking experiences is fundamentally selfish in nature. Its like the lover who constantly demands that their lover provide them with romance... they really aren't focusing on their lover, but rather on themselves and their own desires.
Seek God, seek his desires. Be willing to go without experience if that is what is required to know God.

I should also clarify that when I talk about knowing God, I'm not talking merely about study. That is only one small part. Much more important than study is prayer and meditation.

The thing is, the closer we come to GOD the more experiences we will have, not just from HIM but from the other side attacking our holiness.

All Christians are suppose to desire this,...

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

We are to operate in the same power that Jesus did and just as frequently, if not more. So biblical experiences are to be the norm for the chosen Christian.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Simon Templar,

Both your posts here reminded me of Brother Lawrence, have you read his book (very small account of his life and conversion) of 'Practice the Presence of God'?

Brother Lawrence

I also agree that prayer and meditation accomplish more in the renewing of my mind and a deeper understanding of the awesomeness of God. It's hard to put in words. I guess you struck a cord in me with your comments. Thanks.

As for the op, I think both, but as JE Brady mentioned - they are not primary

I think I have heard of Brother Lawrence before, but I've never read his book. I would like to though. I'll have to put it on my reading list.

 

[imperfectchristian]

The problem with experience is that it is completely individual in nature. I can't share your experience and you can't share mine.

Even if we are standing in the same revival at the same time singing the same song, it is entirely possible that you and I would have completely different experiences of it.

When you attempt to share your experience with me via description, language, all I can do is relate it to my own experience, or to a certain degree attempt to imagine it, which will also probably be rooted in my own experience.

Thus, on a certain level, we either have to believe that other people's experiences are like our own, or we are simply unable to truly know anything about them.

Thus, to a certain extent you have to expect that, if you are attempting to relate your experiences to other people, they will relate them to their own experiences.

I have had great experiences of God in charismatic worship. However, when considering that I spent 30 years going to a charismatic church, they were relatively few and far between.
Granted, most sundays were 'good' experiences, but they were not special really. (which is of course true by definition because if every sunday was 'special' then special would lose its meaning).

Even back when I was fully immersed in that particular church, back when I was a teen or in my early twenties, I saw LOTS of people who had experiences and raved about how wonderful they were etc. But I knew that many of them were not true for two reasons.

#1 - the way people acted during said experiences was contrary to godliness
#2 - (more importantly) the people remained unchanged

In fact, I have to admit I might not be accurate in saying that their experiences weren't true... they may have been genuine experiences, but what I'm getting at is despite those experiences, the people really didn't know God, at least not very well. Thus even if they had a genuine experience, they really didn't encounter God in that experience in a lasting way. In which case I must ask, what good is it?

By far the best experiences I have had with God have been since I left that church and started pursuing the historic, original, faith.
They were not in revival services, but rather in prayer and meditation. I actually tear up even remembering some of them. Times where I would literally just burst out into song, or tongues because I literally felt like it was the only way I could express the joy and wonder in my spirit. Other times where I was moved to weep because of the sheer beauty of God that he was revealing to me, it was more than I could take.

I don't mean to undermine, or belittle your experiences because honestly, I don't know what they are, only you do.
However, I can only speak based on my experiences. What I can tell you based on my own experience is that the things I remember from back in my younger days in my old church were moving, sometimes to joy, other times to tears etc, they were inspirational... but they were in a sense only an introduction. The appetizer if you will. As my knowledge of God and my understanding has increased, by God's grace and guidance, it has lead me onward to deeper, more moving experiences. Not the opposite.

However, I also offer up this caution. God has always kept this in the forefront of my mind as well... do not seek experiences. Seek God.

Seeking experiences is fundamentally selfish in nature. Its like the lover who constantly demands that their lover provide them with romance... they really aren't focusing on their lover, but rather on themselves and their own desires.
Seek God, seek his desires. Be willing to go without experience if that is what is required to know God.

I should also clarify that when I talk about knowing God, I'm not talking merely about study. That is only one small part. Much more important than study is prayer and meditation.

That is a nice post. Not really what I was getting at, but I don't disagree.

I think God is someone we can experience daily and the reason we don't is very much because the world around us crowds our senses. I am not saying a person is less because their senses are crowded, its just the more they are, the harder it is to live the Christian life. Lot is a good example of someone's who's senses were severely crowded by the worldliness around him.

Are their deeply spiritual Christians who don't have supernatural experiences? Yes I am sure there are, but based on my own experiences it is not because we can't.

I believe we can supernaturally hear from God and Him move supernaturally in our lives on a daily basis, but very very few of us do (me included) because of the crowding of what it means to simply live in the world. True Spirit filled services are a way to touch base with that again on a regular basis through the gathering together of like minded people who build each other up and renew each other not just in the hearing of the Word, not just in corporate worship, but in the stirring of the anointing inside of each of us.

If we are to move supernaturally, it can't be just a one man show or a nice Biblical presentation...it takes the whole body working together in unity and oneness of purpose and spirit.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

I agree with Arb's last post and yours Twiggy...the thing is, it is a hard road to walk, the journey of holiness. As Arb said, we get ridiculed for it.

 

[Simon_Templar]

That is a nice post. Not really what I was getting at, but I don't disagree.

I think God is someone we can experience daily and the reason we don't is very much because the world around us crowds our senses. I am not saying a person is less because their senses are crowded, its just the more they are, the harder it is to live the Christian life. Lot is a good example of someone's who's senses were severely crowded by the worldliness around him.

Are their deeply spiritual Christians who don't have supernatural experiences? Yes I am sure there are, but based on my own experiences it is not because we can't.

I believe we can supernaturally hear from God and Him move supernaturally in our lives on a daily basis, but very very few of us do (me included) because of the crowding of what it means to simply live in the world. True Spirit filled services are a way to touch base with that again on a regular basis through the gathering together of like minded people who build each other up and renew each other not just in the hearing of the Word, not just in corporate worship, but in the stirring of the anointing inside of each of us.

If we are to move supernaturally, it can't be just a one man show or a nice Biblical presentation...it takes the whole body working together in unity and oneness of purpose and spirit.

It is very frustrating sometimes trying to communicate to people when they think they understand what your saying and really they don't.

Again, the problem with experiences.

The first question I would ask is.... what is a supernatural experience?
The second I would ask is... why do you want them?

If you could open your eyes beyond the world that you have been trained to see, you might begin to see that everything is a supernatural experience.
And at the same time, nothing is a supernatural experience...

 

[Gnarwhal]

I think both experience and intellect are aspects of Christian faith that are intended to complement each other. I truly believe Jesus intends his followers to balance both in their walk with Him and because of so many various denominations today we've sadly missed the point. You have this denomination over here on the far left that is "intellect only" and this denomination over here on the far right that is "solely experiential" and it only pushes for more disunity in the body of Christ.

It's hard to strike a balance because doing so is contrary to human nature in many ways. We find ourselves swept up in legalism, or the latest "fad" movement blowing through the church community and fail to remain on an even keel.

Since I met my wife I've been running in more Spirit-Filled circles, whereas beforehand I attended a CMA church that was more geared towards an intellectual faith (until just before we left when they radically shifted to the opposite end of the spectrum quite suddenly). So it's interesting to engage other Spirit-Filled believers with varying opinions on "what's important". I often run into a brother or sister who opposes any form of intellectual pursuit of God, and they have a point (usually they argue that the Holy Spirit is sufficient for equipping) and I don't deny their position, but I disagree on the fact that pursuing God from an intellectual standpoint is somehow unnecessary, irrelevant or blasphemous. Nevertheless the discussion ends on a good note with both sides feeling edified.

I love this quote from C.S. Lewis,

“Consequently, if you do not listen to Theology, that will not mean that you have no ideas about God. It will mean that you have a lot of wrong ones - bad, muddled, out-of-date ideas. For a great many of the ideas about God which are trotted out as novelties today are simply the ones which real Theologians tried centuries ago and rejected. To believe in the popular religion of modern England is retrogression - like believing the earth is flat.”

 

[ARBITER01]

I agree with Arb's last post and yours Twiggy...the thing is, it is a hard road to walk, the journey of holiness. As Arb said, we get ridiculed for it.

Yep, it's absolutely true.

But,..... to see GOD operate through us and heal someone of a very bad condition is worth it. Just drawing close to HIM to be near The Almighty clears every problem away we ever had.

 

[imperfectchristian]

It is very frustrating sometimes trying to communicate to people when they think they understand what your saying and really they don't.

Again, the problem with experiences.

The first question I would ask is.... what is a supernatural experience?
The second I would ask is... why do you want them?

If you could open your eyes beyond the world that you have been trained to see, you might begin to see that everything is a supernatural experience.
And at the same time, nothing is a supernatural experience...

Supernatural to me is out of the ordinary of what a normal human being (Godly or not) would experience.

For example, when I was a teenager...I drove three and a half hours to see a girl I was crazy about. The last time we had seen each other, we had a falling out of sorts because of outside circumstances. When I got back in contact with her it seemed like we might be able to put things back together. I had been drinking and smoking pot at that time, but I told God before I left that if He would make it work I would straighten up and live for Him. (not a good idea to try to give God ultimatums) Anyhow when I got there I found out that right after she invited me, she went to a party, got drunk and was raped. Consequentially she wanted nothing to do with me. I left and was driving home, intent to immerse myself and escape from this reality I did not want to face anymore. As I was driving I was trying to decide if I wanted to eat breakfast or not and finally decided to pull in at a local Mcdonald's.

The place was practically empty. When I sat down with my food this old gentleman walked up to me and began talking to me about God and really trying his best to minister to me telling me that Jesus would be back soon and what not. I basically blew him off, but I knew my grandmother would love to hear someone tried ministering to me so I gave her the pamphlets when I got in. Well she called the people and the old man's wife answered the phone. She said God woke her husband up at 6am that morning and told this old man to walk a mile to McDonald's, that He wanted him to minister to someone. He said God didn't tell him anything about the person he was suppose to minister to except that the person had red hair. Well I am a true red head and I was one of the only people in the McDonald's that morning and neither that old man nor my grandmother had any idea the heart wrenching ordeal I had just gone through, but God knew and that old man was listening and I will never forget it.

That is supernatural in my book. I don't know much, but I know we need more of that. People who listen to and hear from God and do what He leads them to do.