Who did away with the law?

[Frogster]

Paul saw? Paul HAD. He did not spread GRACE to those workings or powers that were with him, nor did the messenger of satan that was put IN his FLESH receive GRACE. That DEVIL is going to FRY, no grace about it.



Paul understood CLEARLY that those workings WERE NOT HIM, even though he carried same. GRACE does not extend to that which he carried in his flesh. Not ONE SINGLE WORKING of the POWER OF SIN in reaction to THE LAW that transpired IN Paul received GRACE.

Romans 7:

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence."

"For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

NONE of those workings are BLESSED of GRACE in anyone.

Dude..again..all your doing is showing that the flesh is roused by law.

Yes..thanks again for your description of law, and how it makes one regress into the flesh. Read 7:4-5. Paul saw how the law roused flesh, and died to it.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Where did you get the idea that it was God the Father Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush?

The Voice said "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6). Jesus stated in John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad". Jesus is the God of Abraham, and those fellows picking up rocks to stone Jesus understood what He was telling them. The conclusion reached by those within His own cultural backdrop was accurate.

I am very comfortable with Jesus issuing the covenant from Mount Sinai. With Him creating the law, He has natural ownership rights over it, He is sovereign to His created law (See the lesson to Peter in Matthew 17:24-26), and He alone has the natural right to take away the covenant He created in the first place, as Hebrews 10:9 says He did.

Now, that!, we are in agreement!

 

[squint]

Dude..again..all your doing is showing that the flesh is roused by law.

IF you are going to 'stick' with the 'evil flesh' routine you know where that goes. Why is it you cannot place that EVIL PRESENT as DEMONIC and not 'flesh?'

The teaching of EVIL FLESH/MATTER or DIVIDING GOD of the O.T. away from Jesus is gnostic heresy.

s

 

[VictorC]

I am very comfortable with Jesus issuing the covenant from Mount Sinai. With Him creating the law, He has natural ownership rights over it, He is sovereign to His created law (See the lesson to Peter in Matthew 17:24-26), and He alone has the natural right to take away the covenant He created in the first place, as Hebrews 10:9 says He did.

Now, that!, we are in agreement!

Are you sure?

 

[YosemiteSam]

I do believe my Bible - you? My bible says that no man can live who sees God the Father. Ex 33:20. Thousands have seen Jesus and lived. So who is the entity that Moses talked with? God does not change or lie.

Your Corinthian quote is using the TITLE Christ meaning Messiah in the sense of deliverer, not Redeemer. And for you information the word for rock is petra. It is a comparative reference like the Deut references.

And you will say that I disbelieve the Scripture. I can live with that.

bugkiller


I wasn't throwin down on you bugkiller, I was just making a statement. Believe your bible. All here, I am sure believe the bible to be the word of God and sure enough it is. Often, including myself, we go with the crowd or with commentaries, just because they said so. What you have to remember is that the one who wrote the commentary is no different than you or I. Just a man, who also "thinks" he is an expert. I can't tell you how many times I have picked up a commentary to see the what might be said about a verse nor can I tell you how often they are plainly wrong. I use commentaries and the such but with discretion. It has to fit what the Bible says and not the other way around. A case in point would be 1 Cor 15:29 considered a hard to understand verse. Not one commentary not one article on the subject fit, historically nor otherwise. Then I read a commentary on the verse from 1856 Barnes and Noble. Bingo! I knew they had it right because the bible said so. There are lots of valuable writings, as long as we don't let them twist up the words and remember they are of the world too.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Now, bugkiller, you asked JohnRabbit for proof that it was Christ, previously the Word, which gave the commandments at Mt.Sinai. It looks to me that you got your wish.

Now, bugkiller, you know that Jesus was the Word, the "logos" or "spokesperson" of God. You know that the "Word" also was God. So who do you suppose spoke to Adam and Eve in the garden?

Christ came to reveal the father Math 11:27. Christ said, "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." Jn 5:37

Or? "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One (Christ) who is from God; He has seen the Father." Jn 6:46

Who do you think Moses saw? It could not have been the Father.

Sorry, been off here awhile been sic...blah

 

[Frogster]

IF you are going to 'stick' with the 'evil flesh' routine you know where that goes. Why is it you cannot place that EVIL PRESENT as DEMONIC and not 'flesh?'

The teaching of EVIL FLESH/MATTER or DIVIDING GOD of the O.T. away from Jesus is gnostic heresy.

s

Yes..again Rom 7.

Does sin dwelling evil present exist in the new creation?

 

[squint]

Yes..again Rom 7.

Does sin dwelling evil present exist in the new creation?

aw, you know the drill...we cannot say we 'have' none and be IN TRUTH.

Funny how in order to be in TRUTH we have to admit we 'have' sin and that being of the devil.

I find it somewhat Divinely ironic that to be in Truth we have to admit the presence of the/a grand LIAR and THIEF...but that is part of the pie we've been sliced by our Father....

Psalm 74:14
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

 

[YosemiteSam]

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

What is there that need explaining about? Moses says that God said you can not see me. That is not permissable. Moses did not see Who He spoke to. There is nowhere that you can show that Moses spoke to two different personalities. Take Gen 3:15 for instance. Who is speaking about Who? The wording is such that it has to be two different entities. Take creation where God said Let Us create man. Who is speaking? Jesus - NO WAY. God the Father gets full credit for creation very clearly in Revelation 4 - 5.

bugkiller

Your right! God the Father does get the credit. Remember those words, "thy will be done." In light of this lets read John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. v2 The same was in the beginning with God. v3 All things were made by him: and without him was not anything made that was made....v10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

So you see, Jesus, the Word, is who made the heavens and earth at the will of the Father.

 

[YosemiteSam]

If one follows the word Lord or God from Genesis I think it speaks very clearly of God the Father. My favorite go to verse is Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The speaker is not the Seed that we recognize as Jesus Christ. The word identifying the Speaker is God. This does not change anywhere in the Torah that I can find. Perhaps you can show where this occurs. I am interested. It is not the woman who will bruise satan's head. Therefore it can not be the Seed Who is speaking? So if it is not Jesus speaking, Who is it? The speaker is clearly identified as God.

The scripture states that God appeared to Abraham. This does not mean that Abraham saw God. And God appeared in the burning bush to Moses. Is the burning bush, God? Did Moses see God? No. If that is so then explain Ex 33:20. Is something fishy? Is Moses lying? I don't think so. If that be the case then the whole thing is fiction. Perhaps you can show that the translators are clearly wrong. Everything seems very consistant to me. Is it that the law pusher need a human body to have a finger of God? Must be. God is a spirit and not a corporeal being.

bugkiller

But bugkiller, Moses did see God! Ex 33:18-23....Moses was allowed to see the backside of the Lord as he passed. So he did see!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Dude..again..all your doing is showing that the flesh is roused by law.

Yes..thanks again for your description of law, and how it makes one regress into the flesh. Read 7:4-5. Paul saw how the law roused flesh, and died to it.

so let me get this straight, the flesh is fine until the law comes around and makes you sin?

 

[YosemiteSam]

so let me get this straight, the flesh is fine until the law comes around and makes you sin?

What up?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Dude..again..all your doing is showing that the flesh is roused by law.

Yes..thanks again for your description of law, and how it makes one regress into the flesh. Read 7:4-5. Paul saw how the law roused flesh, and died to it.

Frogster,

By the law Paul came to know sin. Wouldn't it stir you up to know you are sinning, in need of repentance and forgiveness. How then did he die to it. He lived a life overcoming sin. He fought daily to overcome sin that dwelled in him.

 

[Frogster]

aw, you know the drill...we cannot say we 'have' none and be IN TRUTH.

Funny how in order to be in TRUTH we have to admit we 'have' sin and that being of the devil.

I find it somewhat Divinely ironic that to be in Truth we have to admit the presence of the/a grand LIAR and THIEF...but that is part of the pie we've been sliced by our Father....

Psalm 74:14
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Oh my...

I never said we do not carry two natures. But the Spirit is the place to live, not the past in Adam.

look...

Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

In other words, in the salvation plan, the old order is over, we are delivered from this present evil age, and we don't need law to wake up Adam..Dude! let him sleep..shhhhhh In the NKJV it says ..revived.


Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

 

[Frogster]

so let me get this straight, the flesh is fine until the law comes around and makes you sin?

I never said fine, but it gets aroused.

People are doing this to the flesh, when they walk under law. They are trying to make him behave. Now Adam..you try harder.

 

[Frogster]

Dude..again..all your doing is showing that the flesh is roused by law.

Yes..thanks again for your description of law, and how it makes one regress into the flesh. Read 7:4-5. Paul saw how the law roused flesh, and died to it.

Frogster,

By the law Paul came to know sin. Wouldn't it stir you up to know you are sinning, in need of repentance and forgiveness. How then did he die to it. He lived a life overcoming sin. He fought daily to overcome sin that dwelled in him.

The only way one can fight sin, is to walk in the spirit, and that is what Paul did in Phil 3, walking in de power of his resurrection, since we are raised up with him.

But..the law empowers sin, and under that principle we will walk in death, not life, from the power of the Most High.

Notice again, after the redemption from law, came the age of the Spirit.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Show me one verse that shows the law stopping sin internally. There are however scriptures that says by the Spirit we do, by walking in the new creation, that was raised up with him.


Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.


In other words, we were resurrected with him, and we can reckon these things for ourselves.

 

[squint]

Oh my...

I never said we do not carry two natures. But the Spirit is the place to live, not the past in Adam.

Where do you get off on keeping on blaming Adam?

Look, let's get clear on this if 'we' can. We all have sin and sin is OF THE DEVIL. There is the OTHER NATURE we carry and that is not of the 'we' but of that, not ADAM.

Any 'believer' can DENY that is within their mind or actions and blame any number of different workings other than the ONE that is disclosed BY WORD. Only ONE other nature can be placed IN MAN and that nature is DEVILISH. Adam...was a son of God. You have zero cause to slur him.

James 3:

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

There are MANY MISSING MARKS in DEVILISH nature, one of them being an INability to spit out that connection and blame and accuse our fellow man, particularly Adam.

look...

Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Great. But realize that EVERY last damnation scripture is laid upon that working that we ALL CARRY as well, and that is NOT dragged under ANY Grace or Love. It is EASY to SMEAR ourselves as WHOLE and only take the GOOD THINGS and leave THE BAD.

There is GOOD CAUSE to fear God because in fact we are NOT alone in these matters. For every good scripture there is a corresponding BAD SIDE to go against the other working. This is THE SCALE of GODS TRUTH in His Words.

In other words, in the salvation plan, the old order is over, we are delivered from this present evil age, and we don't need law to wake up Adam..Dude! let him sleep..shhhhhh In the NKJV it says ..revived.

Carnal man cannot discern their burdens OR from whence THEY COME or from WHO THEY ARE, or that the entirety of the Word that is fully applicable to both sides of these matters, to the ONE and to the OTHER. They cannot because they are BLINDED to that side FROM that working and will DENY the applicability of GODS DIRE SIDE is applied to a working that we all CARRY and that is SIN which is OF THE DEVIL. Can I be any more clear yet?

New men get NEW NAMES because THEIR OLD MAN did not see through their SERPENT SCALE COVERED BLINDED EYES.

The LAW is for the LAWLESS and we all are carriers of LAWLESSNESS regardless of how much PAINT we apply to COVER UP this fact.

The Good News for Gods children is that they KNOW that working is NOT THEM even when THEY HAVE IT...and they also know that is BAD NEWS for the DEVILS...which is also GOOD NEWS FOR US.

but to continually clang about all of our WHITENESS in denial of the obvious is NOT THE RING OF TRUTH.

enjoy!

squint

 

[JohnRabbit]

The entire law had spiritual roots, and imposing an artificial division to set the ten commandments apart from the rest of the law causes you to deny what the ten commandments was.

The ten commandments was the only covenant from Mount Sinai.

Imposing a false definition from an English dictionary that doesn't define a Suzerainty covenant causes you to misunderstand what the ten commandments was. A sovereign dictates his terms of ownership to the vassal that he rescues or defends, and compliance on the part of the vassal is requisite for the sovereign's continued ownership and defense. God is that Sovereign, and the children of Israel were that vassal He rescued from Egyptian bondage.

Your "logic" is forcing a preclusion on what the Scriptures mean, rather than allowing the author to convey his own meaning.

The law in this case is the content of the covenant dictated to the vassal, that the Sovereign demands compliance to as a condition to live and possess the promised land.

You still haven't explained to me how slaughtering lambs conveys love. In case you haven't noticed, the Sinai covenant contains an ordinance demanding that Israel keep the sabbath holy - and that ordinance was ceremonial as well as prophetic in nature. It reminded Israel of God's rest that Hebrews 4:1 reminds the reader was a promise yet to be attained. The sabbath didn't provide God's rest, but was a shadow that was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

We aren't interested in what you think, when you have determined to conclude something completely contrary to the narratives describing the Gospel.

You hate the Bible?
I hope that isn't your goal, and you just had a hard time composing this sentence.

ok, like i said, we disagree.

contrary to what you say, the Sabbath rest of God has not happened yet, don't forget that we are currently living in the times of the gentiles.

the Sabbath rest will be ushered in at the establishment of the kindom. so, the sabbath is still binding pointing to that time. the sabbath is still the sign that identifies God's people, the church.

i'm just glad, that i'm not one who dares to post, that the law of the living God is done away with and we currently have no way to define sin. believe you, me, i don't want to be in that number.

you say that there was no law in the garden of eden, yet i showed proof that they were married, gen 3:4. i showed where paul mentioned that there was a law that bound them together in rom 7. there was a law in eden that bound their marriage.

like i told you before, i'm not going for the banana in the tailpipe. you can, but i won't.

Matthew 19:3-9 ( NKJV ) 3The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

you can parse all you want, but marriage was instituted by God from the beginining, like verse 4 said.


and remember?

Genesis 1:27-28 ( NKJV ) 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

now we know He didn't mean go fornicate. they were married and there were laws in place to govern, rom 7:2.

now, look at how Jesus answered the question posed to Him in verse 7, "wasn't like that from the beginning"! obviously, in the beginning you couldn't just up and divorce your wife.

that had to be according to the law! the law did not permit it!

the ten commandments were in force then, because it is the law against adultery that binds the marriage by law rom 7:2. this is the same way the COI was bound to the living God, but we know that they commited spiritual adultery.


the law was in force in eden, way before mediation at mt. sinai.

 

[Frogster]

Where do you get off on keeping on blaming Adam?

Look, let's get clear on this if 'we' can. We all have sin and sin is OF THE DEVIL. There is the OTHER NATURE we carry and that is not of the 'we' but of that, not ADAM.

Any 'believer' can DENY that is within their mind or actions and blame any number of different workings other than the ONE that is disclosed BY WORD. Only ONE other nature can be placed IN MAN and that nature is DEVILISH. Adam...was a son of God. You have zero cause to slur him.

James 3:

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

There are MANY MISSING MARKS in DEVILISH nature, one of them being an INability to spit out that connection and blame and accuse our fellow man, particularly Adam.


Great. But realize that EVERY last damnation scripture is laid upon that working that we ALL CARRY as well, and that is NOT dragged under ANY Grace or Love. It is EASY to SMEAR ourselves as WHOLE and only take the GOOD THINGS and leave THE BAD.

There is GOOD CAUSE to fear God because in fact we are NOT alone in these matters. For every good scripture there is a corresponding BAD SIDE to go against the other working. This is THE SCALE of GODS TRUTH in His Words.


Carnal man cannot discern their burdens OR from whence THEY COME or from WHO THEY ARE, or that the entirety of the Word that is fully applicable to both sides of these matters, to the ONE and to the OTHER. They cannot because they are BLINDED to that side FROM that working and will DENY the applicability of GODS DIRE SIDE is applied to a working that we all CARRY and that is SIN which is OF THE DEVIL. Can I be any more clear yet?

New men get NEW NAMES because THEIR OLD MAN did not see through their SCALE COVERED EYES.

The LAW is for the LAWLESS and we all are carriers of LAWLESSNESS regardless of how much PAINT we apply to COVER UP this fact.

The Good News for Gods children is that they KNOW that working is NOT THEM even when THEY HAVE IT...and they also know that is BAD NEWS for the DEVILS...which is also GOOD NEWS FOR US.

but to continually clang about all of our WHITENESS in denial of the obvious is NOT THE RING OF TRUTH.

enjoy!

squint

Because all were condemend and sinned in uncle adam. It says the law was added to increase the trespess, and that had to be Adams if we use proper context, so the nature had the full blown SIN DWELLING EVIL PRESENT, and the law was added to increase it, and to impute it.

See..that is why this froggy taint walkin under law.

 

[Frogster]

ok, like i said, we disagree.

contrary to what you say, the Sabbath rest of God has not happened yet, don't forget that we are currently living in the times of the gentiles.

the Sabbath rest will be ushered in at the establishment of the kindom. so, the sabbath is still binding pointing to that time. the sabbath is still the sign that identifies God's people, the church.

i'm just glad, that i'm not one who dares to post, that the law of the living God is done away with and we currently have no way to define sin. believe you, me, i don't want to be in that number.

you say that there was no law in the garden of eden, yet i showed proof that they were married, gen 3:4. i showed where paul mentioned that there was a law that bound them together in rom 7. there was a law in eden that bound their marriage.

like i told you before, i'm not going for the banana in the tailpipe. you can, but i won't.

Matthew 19:3-9 ( NKJV ) 3The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

you can parse all you want, but marriage was instituted by God from the beginining, like verse 4 said.


and remember?

Genesis 1:27-28 ( NKJV ) 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

now we know He didn't mean go fornicate. they were married and there were laws in place to govern, rom 7:2.

now, look at how Jesus answered the question posed to Him in verse 7, "wasn't like that from the beginning"! obviously, in the beginning you couldn't just up and divorce your wife.

that had to be according to the law! the law did not permit it!

the ten commandments were in force then, because it is the law against adultery that binds the marriage by law rom 7:2. this is the same way the COI was bound to the living God, but we know that they commited spiritual adultery.


the law was in force in eden, way before mediation at mt. sinai.

In an illustration, it is best to go by the surrounding context, and the conclusion, to get the full meaning of the passage. Written code was de law.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


Also, we have it here, to get more perspective.

Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

Also, while we are at it, Sabbath laws abolished. Remember gal 4:10.

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,