Who did away with the law?

[squint]

Now there is an amazing statement! Grace condemns?????? Oh really now. Where might I find that in the Bible or any other resource for that matter. Can you back up grace condeming anything?

bugkiller

God has not lent His Unmerited Favor (Grace) to sin, evil or it's dark powers or actions. Grace will avail the devils exactly ZERO.

s

 

[98cwitr]

Paul talks about 3 Laws

1. God's Law
2. Law of sin and death
3. Law of the Holy Spirit

1 and 2 are NOT the same.

 

[Frogster]

Paul talks about 3 Laws

1. God's Law
2. Law of sin and death
3. Law of the Holy Spirit

1 and 2 are NOT the same.

However sin and death were brought to light, by living under law.

Also in many circles, law in Rom 8:2, has been interpreted to be Mosaic on it's face value, but again, in any event, it did bring to light, the reaction of law. Hence a principle indeed.

Rom 7;9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Moses had a ministry of death, as per 2 Cor 3.

 

[Frogster]

God has not lent His Unmerited Favor (Grace) to sin, evil or it's dark powers or actions. Grace will avail the devils exactly ZERO.

s

Who said it did?

 

[98cwitr]

However sin and death were brought to light, by living under law.

Also in many circles, law in Rom 8:2, has been interpreted to be Mosaic on it's face value, but again, in any event, it did bring to light, the reaction of law. Hence a principle indeed.

Rom 7;9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Moses had a ministry of death, as per 2 Cor 3.

That He did, God commanded Moses to kill those that broke certain laws.

 

[squint]

Who said it did?

buggy seems to be having a problem with Grace not allowing/licensing sin, but condemning same.

The appears to be (to me) to be condemnation of sin by Grace:

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


I would submit that believing that God of the O.T. AS THE LAW GIVER was SEPARATED from Jesus Christ, GRACE/TRUTH/WORD AND same Jesus was NOT INVOLVED WITH THE O.T. LAW is a heretical belief. This appears where buggy has landed in this matter.

Jesus has ALWAYS been and will ever BE THE WORD of GOD.

enjoy!

s

 

[98cwitr]

Jeremiah 31:31-40 (New International Version)

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [a] them, "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.

38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."

 

[VictorC]

Seems more believe it is necessary to obolish or do away with the law to attain heaven

One of those holding that opinion is Jesus Christ, the "He" referenced in Hebrews 10:9:

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.​

The "first" was the covenant from Mount Sinai, the ten commandments.

 

[visionary]

One of those holding that opinion is Jesus Christ, the "He" referenced in Hebrews 10:9:

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.​

The "first" was the covenant from Mount Sinai, the ten commandments.

As noted in the verses you provided.. sacrifice and all other offerings for sin.. which He had no pleasure in.. which are in the "first" covenant were taken away so that He can establish the second.. a covenant where Christ is our sacrifice.

 

[bugkiller]

buggy seems to be having a problem with Grace not allowing/licensing sin, but condemning same.

No bugkiller has no problem. I asked where grace condemns. Grace does not allow or license sin anyhwere. Nor is being under grace, lawlessness.

The appears to be (to me) to be condemnation of sin by Grace:

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


I would submit that believing that God of the O.T. AS THE LAW GIVER was SEPARATED from Jesus Christ, GRACE/TRUTH/WORD AND same Jesus was NOT INVOLVED WITH THE O.T. LAW is a heretical belief. This appears where buggy has landed in this matter.

Jesus has ALWAYS been and will ever BE THE WORD of GOD.

Submit all you want. It doesn't change the facts. Your opinion has been duly noted. Submission of proof is acceptable on CF.

bugkiller

 

[VictorC]

As noted in the verses you provided.. sacrifice and all other offerings for sin.. which He had no pleasure in.. which are in the "first" covenant were taken away so that He can establish the second.. a covenant where Christ is our sacrifice.

As you note, God doesn't have any pleasure in the sacrifices, and there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). But Hebrews 10:1-9 also addresses the burnt offerings, which were mandated by the law to observe the daily oblations, the sabbath, and the new moons (Numbers 28:1-15). In the course of taking away the first covenant, the sabbath was also taken away. And as Numbers 28:6 reminds the reader these were "a regular burnt offering which was ordained at Mount Sinai". The "first" contained all these things.

 

[98cwitr]

No bugkiller has no problem. I asked where grace condemns. Grace does not allow or license sin anyhwere. Nor is being under grace, lawlessness.[/I][/B]Submit all you want. It doesn't change the facts. Your opinion has been duly noted. Submission of proof is acceptable on CF.

bugkiller

if grace does not allow for sin to occur then what is it's purpose?

 

[VictorC]

can't see it.

I consider this to be an excuse you appeal to all too easily.

 

[squint]

One of those holding that opinion is Jesus Christ, the "He" referenced in Hebrews 10:9:

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
​

The "first" was the covenant from Mount Sinai, the ten commandments.

IF the Old Testament Laws were OF God and His Christ THEN His Words will never pass away.

An often demonstrated principle in the text is first the natural order, THEN the Spiritual Order.

Within the Old Testament Laws there is a latter or Spiritual Order to the same matters. The NATURAL UNDERSTANDING passes away and is replaced by the SPIRITUAL ORDER of the same matters.

God dealt with the Nation of Israel as a FLESHLY called out portion of mankind. Believers today are called into A SPIRITUAL ORDER of those same matters.

Paul intimately LINKED the O.T. Laws to LOVE in Romans 13. This LINKING cannot be denied, nor the O.T. Laws denied in the process without violating and eliminating the bulk of the O.T.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We can clearly see in the above that THE COMMANDMENTS have not evaporated into NOTHING...but CHANGED to the REAVEALING of GRACE and of TRUTH...to LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS. ALL commandments are to be VIEWED through those SPIRITUAL EYES. In this way THEY HAVE not CHANGED, but have been ENHANCED to HIS ULTIMATE GOAL and DESIRES through Jesus Christ, Our Lord.

Jesus said MY WORD WILL NEVER PASS AWAY. Those WORDS include the WORDS of the OLD TESTAMENT.

Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before one jot or tittle of THE LAW would pass away.

Jesus MAGNIFIED the LAW, the WORD of God, taking the Old Testament Law against ADULTERY for example and said that even a THOUGHT of adultery was VIOLATION of that LAW. This MAGNIFICATION placed the FOUL of SIN within the CUP, within MANKINDS HEART/THOUGHTS and not solely in the external fleshly deed wherein the hypocritical practitioners of O.T. LAW JUSTIFIED themselves. They justified themselves ON THE OUTSIDE but they were NOT honest WITHIN themselves.

It is not much different today. Believers eliminate the LAW because they KNOW it condemns them and it assuredly does condemn THE FAULT, the power of SIN within our hearts. It is upon that FACT that we TURN to God in Christ in DIRE NEED for His Mercy and Grace and are LOVED and turned TO LOVE in spite of the power of SIN and EVIL that is present within ALL.

In His Love to us (GRACE AND MERCY) we are freed into LOVE, thereby fulfilling the SPIRITUAL INTENT of THE LAW.

Paul understood the above quite clearly. He openly admitted the presence of evil with him. He even went so far as to say he HAD A DEVIL. John the Apostle also does a clear job linking THE DEVIL to sin in 1 John 3:8.

In short, mankind is NOT ALONE in SIN and EVIL. The DEVIL is in the fray and IN MANKIND. Jesus taught that principle also. Where the Word is sown THERE SATAN ENTERS the heart/thought life OF MAN.

It is perfectly LIKELY that they, the DEVILS, are the LAWLESS unto whom the LAW IS AGAINST and who are AROUSED to SIN by the invocation of same LAW.

That power, the power of DEVILS, their power of EVIL PRESENT, the presence of INDWELLING SIN that Paul termed NO LONGER I is OF THEM.

The Law will remain EVER against THOSE LAWLESS ONES.

Believers RISE above them in Gods Spirit of LOVE toward our fellow mankind and we understand WHO is involved with SIN as SLAVES of their blinding SLAVE MASTER who is SATAN. We can be IN LOVE with MANKIND and KNOW that they are NOT ALONE in their blindness, that there is A CAUSE that is NOT THEM.

Hereby PERFECT JUDGMENT comes into the HEARTS of all who are called by GOD to HEAR in this present life. If the BLINDING POWER remains upon the heart of any, that too is by GODS CHOICE.

enjoy!

squint

 

[JohnRabbit]

I consider this to be an excuse you appeal to all too easily.

so you tell me what to say when i don't understand what the poster posts.

 

[squint]

No bugkiller has no problem. I asked where grace condemns.

Provided. Hebrews 10:26-29.

Grace does not allow or license sin anyhwere.

Even more...Grace will provide FIREY INDIGNATION and DESTRUCTION upon EVERY SINNER.

Nor is being under grace, lawlessness.[/i][/b]Submit all you want. It doesn't change the facts. Your opinion has been duly noted. Submission of proof is acceptable on CF.

I SUBMITTED that you state you do not believe JESUS had anything to do with the OLD TESTAMENT LAWS.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Then if not, we are still under a curse, because those who did then,lived by them, lev 18:5, and cursed is everyone who does not abide, that means to live under..EVERYTHING..IN..the book of the law.


10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [4] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

first of all, what does "works of the law" or "works of law" mean?

 

[JohnRabbit]

I think you are dismissing our posts. Have we not zeroed in on Romans 7 which descirbes the relationship we have with God? Did we not show that the law is a dead husband. We have not divorced the law, it is dead and we burried it so that we could be married to another, namely Jesus Christ. We have accepted the new law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

bugkiller

see, that's my point.

paul never says that the law died. even when talking about the husband in verses 2 and 3 his emphasis is on the penalty of the law.

so much so, that if the wife married while the husband lived, she would break the commandment.

then, verse 4 says you became dead to the law.

here, paul is talking about baptism like i told you earlier, compare the rhetoric of verse 4 with:

Romans 6:4 ( NKJV ) 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

so, go reread all of that and i promise you, your not going to find anywhere in chapter seven where paul says "the law died".

you're the one that has to "die", symbolically, so that:

Romans 6:6 ( NKJV ) 6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

so, being "dead to the law", means you've changed your ways and accepted the sacrifice of the Christ and the PENALTY of the law no longer hangs over you.

so all of that you have written in the quote above is out of context, and just flat wrong!

 

[VictorC]

IF the Old Testament Laws were OF God and His Christ THEN His Words will never pass away.

How do you reconcile that with Hebrews 10:9 quoted in the previous post? And, how do you reconcile this with Romans 7:6-7 declaring that we have been delivered from the law that held us in the past tense (the recipients didn't keep it; the law kept the recipients)? That law was identified by a quote "You shall not covet", which is found only in the covenant from Mount Sinai, the ten commandments.

An often demonstrated principle in the text is first the natural order, THEN the Spiritual Order.

Within the Old Testament Laws there is a latter or Spiritual Order to the same matters. The NATURAL UNDERSTANDING passes away and is replaced by the SPIRITUAL ORDER of the same matters.

God dealt with the Nation of Israel as a FLESHLY called out portion of mankind. Believers today are called into A SPIRITUAL ORDER of those same matters.

The law provide many lessons for us, but it does not remain the binding Suzerainty covenant with compliance requisite for life, as it was conveyed to the children of Israel during its tenure. Galatians 3:10-14 tells us how we have been redeemed from the book of the law to enable the blessing of the Seed of Abraham to be attained by the nations in the plural. The law alienated the Gentiles from that promise during its tenure, as Ephesians 2:11-16 explains in better detail.

Paul intimately LINKED the O.T. Laws to LOVE in Romans 13. This LINKING cannot be denied, nor the O.T. Laws denied in the process without violating and eliminating the bulk of the O.T.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

As I mentioned, the law provides lessons, and Paul affirms that love fulfills it. That isn't compliance to the law in the flesh that Paul also affirms all to be disobedient to in Romans 11:32.

We can clearly see in the above that THE COMMANDMENTS have not evaporated into NOTHING...but CHANGED to the REAVEALING of GRACE and of TRUTH...to LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS. ALL commandments are to be VIEWED through those SPIRITUAL EYES. In this way THEY HAVE not CHANGED, but have been ENHANCED to HIS ULTIMATE GOAL and DESIRES through Jesus Christ, Our Lord.

Jesus said MY WORD WILL NEVER PASS AWAY. Those WORDS include the WORDS of the OLD TESTAMENT.

Those Words remain with us today as lessons to draw upon. But does that indicate the we have not been redeemed from the previous covenant that alienated the Gentiles and denied them salvation? No.

Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before one jot or tittle of THE LAW would pass away.

The passage this thought comes from (Matthew 5:17-18) contains the qualification "till all is fulfilled", and treats the law in the same way as the prophets. Did Jesus fulfill the law in His propitiation? Yes.

Jesus MAGNIFIED the LAW, the WORD of God, taking the Old Testament Law against ADULTERY for example and said that even a THOUGHT of adultery was VIOLATION of that LAW. This MAGNIFICATION placed the FOUL of SIN within the CUP, within MANKINDS HEART/THOUGHTS and not solely in the external fleshly deed wherein the hypocritical practitioners of O.T. LAW JUSTIFIED themselves. They justified themselves ON THE OUTSIDE but they were NOT honest WITHIN themselves.

It is not much different today. Believers eliminate the LAW because they KNOW it condemns them and it assuredly does condemn THE FAULT, the power of SIN within our hearts. It is upon that FACT that we TURN to God in Christ in DIRE NEED for His Mercy and Grace and are LOVED and turned TO LOVE in spite of the power of SIN and EVIL that is present within ALL.

That's the design of the law affirmed in Galatians 3:

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.​

Once faith in our Redeemer is attained, we are no longer in the jurisdiction of the law's tutelage.

The Law will remain EVER against THOSE LAWLESS ONES.

That is the reason the book of the law was placed outside the ark of the covenant, "that it may be there as a witness against you" (Deuteronomy 31:26), but that status does not apply to those redeemed from that first covenant. There is no one who is lawless, but for God's redeemed we have been given His promise "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more".That brings an interesting light onto Matthew 7:23, which says ""And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'". Who's lawlessness was remembered; those feigning compliance or those redeemed in God's adoption?

 

[VictorC]

so you tell me what to say when i don't understand what the poster posts.

You would go a long way by quoting the text you don't understand, and asking a specific question germane to it. Saying you don't understand has become your means to dismiss entire posts with three words responding to an entire page of text.