Intelligent Design

Can Intelligent Design be Identified Scientifically

  • Yes

  • No

  • Possibly (explain)

  • It's a stupid question (really explain)


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mark kennedy

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Intelligent Design in the sense that "something" designed us? Maybe. I doubt such evidence would really come from biology though. It would need to be historical or archaeological. Alien ruins on another planet that show experiments creating humanity, that kind of thing.-

God need not experiment with anything, let's get that straight off the bat. The historical veracity of the Scriptures has been the subject of many a Christian Apologetics text and needs no further elaboration given the context of your statement.

Intelligent Design as in the psuedoscientific guise that creationism tries to hide behind in order to further its anti-scientific agenda? It's not even science, so why bother? At best it is philosophy.

Intelligent Design is natural theology, plain and simple. Now you could make the argument that irreducible complexity is subjective or that it really proves nothing, I would be fine with that. My problem is that science itself is a philosophy, it's called epistemology or a theory of knowledge. What we 'know' about God is that he is Creator or Designer or we have no basis for faith, in the Christian sense, unless God is.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (Hebrews 11: 1-3)​

You think this knowledge is phony, that is the character of your rant. I personally find that attitude both biased and unchristian and thus psuedoscientific.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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Because the replication of DNA happens during transcription. Again, DNA-transcription-RNA-translation. Try to get it right next time.
My goodness Mark, but your casual rudeness is bracing in the morning :)

Anyway to get back my question, from what your How DNA Works link says, yes DNA transcription produced RNA and RNA translation produces the proteins.
dna-9a.jpg

But this isn't DNA replication which we see in the image you copied. Replicating a strand of DNA is a different process from transcribing the DNA to RNA. Transcription produces proteins, not a replicated strand of DNA.
 
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crawfish

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Oh by the way and I'm just putting this out there. I can't believe no one thought it was a stupid question, I'm referring to the poll of course.

Grace and peace,
Mark

You didn't include that as an option. ;)
 
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gluadys

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Very nice to see you again after all this time, just wanted to add that.



No, that is not my definition. My definition is DNA-transcription-RNA-translation.


I was speaking of your definition of a mutation. You said it was a failure of DNA repair. The process of transcription does not leave any DNA in need of repair, hence no mutation.


happens during transcription and a mutation is a failure of DNA repair, thus a transcription error.

Perhaps you would like to go through some of the videos and images of transcription you have posted and show exactly where we get a replication of DNA. All I have seen is the production of an mRNA molecule. Where does DNA replication occur as part of this? (If it is a video, just give the time reference where we can see the new strand of replicated DNA. Or put an arrow on an image pointing to the replicated DNA.)




Never the less, it is very nice to see you again gluadys, you have always been my favorite TE. You may well be the only one I am convinced actually believes the posts they are writing.

Charmed, I'm sure. But I have no idea why you would think other TEs don't believe what they are posting. Most of them understand this stuff in more detail than me and have all the more reason to believe it.
 
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mark kennedy

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I was speaking of your definition of a mutation. You said it was a failure of DNA repair. The process of transcription does not leave any DNA in need of repair, hence no mutation.

If the mutation does not happen during the replication process then it is somatic, it is never the less a mutation and I think you know that.

Perhaps you would like to go through some of the videos and images of transcription you have posted and show exactly where we get a replication of DNA. All I have seen is the production of an mRNA molecule. Where does DNA replication occur as part of this? (If it is a video, just give the time reference where we can see the new strand of replicated DNA. Or put an arrow on an image pointing to the replicated DNA.)

Oh my dear, how well you don't know me. I have went through the videos several times. I know what the mRNA molecule is and I know that any failure of DNA repair leading up to it is a mutation. Why do you insist on making this so easy?

Charmed, I'm sure. But I have no idea why you would think other TEs don't believe what they are posting. Most of them understand this stuff in more detail than me and have all the more reason to believe it.

It's the character of your posts, it's the positive way you present your arguments. I don't believe most of them but I think you actually have the convictions of your beliefs, just an opinion, but you seem sincere. I actually respect that, if you are convinced then I have no problem with you. I don't think that most of them do and that is my main problem with them.

You understand plenty and I have learned a great deal from you. What they are arguing is pure undiluted atheism whether they believe it or not. You never really do that, you somehow maintain a traditional Christian worldview without resorting to atheistic materialism. Your my hero.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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kenblaster5000

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Some people just have a lack of refinement, and/or choose a mischievous spirit over the Spirit of God. Mischief is not of God. One god that is the god of mischief is loki, the fire god of mischief. This kind of spirit is most likely the fire that is called down from heaven by the antichrist in the sight of men.

Someone has to say it.

Bless.
 
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kenblaster5000

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If the mutation does not happen during the replication process then it is somatic, it is never the less a mutation and I think you know that.



Oh my dear, how well you don't know me. I have went through the videos several times. I know what the mRNA molecule is and I know that any failure of DNA repair leading up to it is a mutation. Why do you insist on making this so easy?



It's the character of your posts, it's the positive way you present your arguments. I don't believe most of them but I think you actually have the convictions of your beliefs, just an opinion, but you seem sincere. I actually respect that, if you are convinced then I have no problem with you. I don't think that most of them do and that is my main problem with them.

You understand plenty and I have learned a great deal from you. What they are arguing is pure undiluted atheism whether they believe it or not. You never really do that, you somehow maintain a traditional Christian worldview without resorting to atheistic materialism. Your my hero.

Grace and peace,
Mark

The Apostle Paul was harassed by a spirit of divination for three days until he spoke and cast it out. Men were kind of mad because they made money off of her. Just a suggestion.

Bless.
 
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shernren

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Replication is part of the transcription process, it's the main event.

Again, mark, repeating mantras does not make them true.

Here's a really helpful site that is aiming to organize all publications that have to do with the yeast genome. It has a really helpful database of cellular processes which defines every single process that happens in a yeast cell and relates them to each other.

What is replication?
Definition: The cellular metabolic process whereby new strands of DNA are synthesized. The template for replication can either be an existing DNA molecule or RNA.
If you take a look at all the processes that are involved in or related to replication, all of them produce DNA products, for example:

premeiotic DNA synthesis: The replication of DNA that precedes meiotic cell division. synonyms: meiotic DNA replication; meiotic DNA synthesis; premeiotic DNA replication.

theta DNA replication: A DNA-dependent DNA replication process in which a double-stranded DNA molecule is synthesized from a circular duplex template.

Almost none of them produce RNA products, the exception being:

DNA replication, synthesis of RNA primer: The synthesis of a short RNA polymer, usually 4-15 nucleotides long, using one strand of unwound DNA as a template; the RNA then serves as a primer from which DNA polymerases extend synthesis.

Even then RNA is only produced as a primer, not a template for the DNA being constructed.

What, on the other hand, is transcription?
Definition: The cellular synthesis of either RNA on a template of DNA or DNA on a template of RNA.
(The latter sense, of course, is reverse transcription; but almost all phenotypic mutations are not reverse-transcribed.) If you take a look at all the processes categorized under "transcription", you will see that most of them involve the production of RNA, and almost none involve the production of DNA.

antisense RNA transcription: The synthesis of antisense RNA, an RNA molecule complementary in sequence to another RNA or DNA molecule, which, by binding the latter, acts to inhibit its function and/or completion of synthesis, on a template of DNA.

mRNA transcription: The cellular synthesis of messenger RNA (mRNA) from a DNA template.

Transcription doesn't happen during replication, replication doesn't happen during transcription, and a mantra repeated does neither a truth make nor a debater improve.

There are cell cycle checks that make sure the DNA is being accurately transcribed or the cell does not happen, thus the term 'transcription'.

There are cell cycle checks that make sure the DNA is being accurately replicated.

DNA is transcribed at all times in the cell, depending on when particular proteins or ribozymes are needed, and it is not restricted to cell cycle check points. (Although, of course, there are some proteins which are only needed during certain check points, and so their corresponding DNA is only transcribed during those check points, which leads to some transcription being checkpoint-specific, but not all.)

What on earth would a mutation be except a failure of DNA repair?

The standard definition is heritable error in DNA sequences, though it goes without saying that that would require a failure in DNA repair. Here's a good website which helps you out:
A failure to repair DNA produces a mutation.
But note what it also says:
Mismatches of the normal bases because of a failure of proofreading during DNA replication.
Note, not transcription, DNA replication.

Ohhhh....so we are actually talking about two different things. There is transcription itself and the transcript error in another context. That's not a correction, you actually are misrepresenting what I'm talking about. I'm talking about transcription and you are playing semantical head games with phraseology.

A transcription error is a mutation and is referred to as such. You are talking about the completed transcript and never bothered to mention the context you are speaking of it in. That is not only a mistake, it's downright deceptive. Shame on you.

No, a transcript error is an error in the transcript that is produced during transcription. Simple as. No semantic fussing, no head games. Just simple biology which you are either incapable of understanding or unwilling to understand.

I'm amazed at your audacity but not surprised since TEs do not hold one another accountable.

Wow. I post sites which back up mark's definition of a mutation, I post the papers which describe transcript errors as phenotypic mutations, I admit that I didn't define mutations well enough, and he has the gall to think that TEs don't hold each other accountable! And of course post #80 never happened.

My point exactly, you never said squat about whether it was phenotypic or a part of the transcription process, thus convoluting the entire discussion.

Err, phenotypic mutations are a part of the transcription process. There's no either/or with those. I hope I haven't just handed you another term to happily abuse. *sigh*

Wise up, I know more then you give me credit for.

I really should wise up indeed, every time I read your replies I wonder if you know less than I give you credit for.

Also:

If the mutation does not happen during the replication process then it is somatic, it is never the less a mutation and I think you know that.

Uh-oh. A somatic mutation is a mutation that happens outside the germline cells. The location is what makes it somatic; a mutation can be somatic whether it happens during DNA replication or not. I hope we don't have another massive disambiguation war on our hands.
 
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shernren

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Papias

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Mark wrote:
What they {TEs} are arguing is pure undiluted atheism whether they believe it or not.

Next time someone mentions the Pope, I'll remember that he is a pure undiluted Atheist. That kinda changes the whole "is the Pope Catholic?" question. Next up, Mark addresses the question of "does a bear s** in the woods?"......

Papias
 
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shernren

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Intelligent Design is natural theology, plain and simple. Now you could make the argument that irreducible complexity is subjective or that it really proves nothing, I would be fine with that. My problem is that science itself is a philosophy, it's called epistemology or a theory of knowledge. What we 'know' about God is that he is Creator or Designer or we have no basis for faith, in the Christian sense, unless God is.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (Hebrews 11: 1-3)​
You think this knowledge is phony, that is the character of your rant. I personally find that attitude both biased and unchristian and thus psuedoscientific.

For someone who constantly complains about unfair debating tactics, mark certainly enjoys packing his arsenal with them. His pet peeve is that evolutionists use "equivocation" to muddy the water; but mark himself has employed that tactic in this post.

First he says:
Intelligent Design is natural theology, plain and simple.
After some irrelevant soliloquy about science as a philosophy he gets to the point:
What we 'know' about God is that he is Creator or Designer or we have no basis for faith, in the Christian sense, unless God is. ... you think that this knowledge is phony ... I personally find that attitude biased and unchristian ...
Can you see the equivocation? God has been redefined, in mark's thought, from the Creator to "the Creator who must have Designed life according to the criteria set out by the IDists". It is the kind of logical leap that is "refudiated" ;) by insightful quotes like these:
I believe there is a Mind who was before all things and through whom all things are held together (Colossians 1:17): I believe that Mind is the intelligence behind all that exists in the universe. Hence, I believe in intelligent design. Does that by definition then, place me in the Intelligent Design (ID) movement? No.
Why should Christians who believe in intelligent design nevertheless reject Intelligent Design? Here are three reasons, from specific to general:

1. Intelligent Design proponents' portrayals of "design" do not accurately reflect optimal design principles.

Note that I am not saying that "evolution produces suboptimal design" (a claim I find unhelpful at best and downright wrong at worst); I am saying that IDists themselves, based on the design principles they see in nature, would never be employed as actual designers.

For example, they like to harp on irreducible complexity, because it is apparently unevolvable. Never mind the morass of evidence that IC traits in fact have evolved and do evolve. Is IC a universal trait of intelligent design? By no means. In fact, if anything, many applications call for multiple redundancy.

Imagine an irreducibly complex space shuttle or banking IT network, where the absence of one component renders the system unable to perform its intended function. Would you drive a car if its engine stopped working every time the window motors malfunctioned? Would you trust a co-worker who couldn't do any work every time one of his pencils went missing? On the other hand, there are two human designers who produced illustrious portfolios of irreducibly complex designs: Heath Robinson and Rube Goldberg. And yet they weren't patented inventors, they were cartoonists. Their designs were caricatures precisely because they were irreducibly complex. Oh, they were cleverly designed, alright. But would you really want an automatic napkin wiper that depended on a lever tossing a cracker to a parrot?

What about specified complexity? Surely that is a mark of intelligent design? To answer that, one need only pay a visit to the Patent Office, where one will readily come across every unspecified design known to man (and which can be profited from). Do patent applications specify measurements and weights? Do they require exact blueprints and detailed schematics? Not often; because the power of the idea in a patent is often in its generality, and the implementation is left up to whoever wishes to make a fast buck. Also, visual art is notoriously unspecified: the same painting can be interpreted by any number of viewers in any number of ways. And yet, despite its deliberate vagueness, visual art is not only considered intelligent but also fundamentally human and creative.

Taking a look at life tells us that even these design concepts were not rigorously applied by the Intelligent Designer himself. It is telling that most IDists resort to bacteria as their showpieces: for how is any multicellular life-form irreducibly complex? Is it irreducibly complex for us to have two lungs and two kidneys? Is it specified for the same finger structure to be reused across the vertebrates for wings, fins, legs, and hands? Is it specified for keratin to be the stuff both of soft hair and hard, sharp claws?

The design metaphors used by IDists are inconsistent and unhelpful biologically, to say the least. And it is not just in biology that they are unhelpful:

2. The metaphor of design damages theistic viewpoints.

It is telling that Paley imagined himself coming across a watch in a heath, and from there postulating a watchmaker instead of interviewing one. The design metaphor focuses a lot more attention on the design than on the designer, and on creation as evidence rather than the revelation of the Creator. It is no accident that John Henry Newman responded to Paleyism negatively:
Observe, then, Gentlemen, that Physical Theology teaches three Divine Attributes [power, wisdom, and goodness], I may say, exclusively; and of these, most of Power, and least of Goodness. And in the next place, what, on the contrary, are those special Attributes, which are the immediate correlatives of religious sentiment? Sanctity, omniscience, justice, mercy, faithfulness. What does Physical Theology, what does the Argument from Design, what do fine disquisitions about final causes, teach us, except very indirectly, faintly, enigmatically, of these transcendently important, these essential portions of the idea of Religion? ... Indeed, a Being of Power, Wisdom, and Goodness, and nothing else, is not very different from the God of the Pantheist.​
Isn't the whole point of the ID movement that design can somehow be assessed independently of any knowledge of the Designer? If not, it isn't science; but if it is, how can it possibly claim to help Christianity? In Christianity, the truth about God does not begin in artifacts and archeology but in contact with the Incarnate, crucified and resurrected Word.

Furthermore, ID denies the providence of God. Paley begins his argument thus:
In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer.​
But is not the stone as much as the watch there by the will of God? Was it not along with the raw materials that became the watch created for the Son by the will of the Father through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Or do only the parts of creation that look like Rube Goldberg machines get to glorify God?

3. There are far better analogies for creation in the Bible than intelligent design.

To be fair, the Bible does describe intelligent design:
​​​​​​​​An idol! A craftsman casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
and casts for it silver chains.
​​​​​​​​He who is too impoverished for an offering
chooses wood that will not rot;
he seeks out a skillful craftsman
to set up an idol that will not move.
Isa 40:19-20 (ESV)
That's hardly flattering! The "designed" rhetoric is used heavily against idols in the Prophets; in the Psalms, moreover, it is normally the wicked who scheme, plot, and plan. To be fair, Proverbs encourages prudence; nevertheless, on the whole, design is at best neutral and at worst a picture of human hubris in the face of divine patience.

So why use it as a metaphor for God's creative activity? It isn't very helpful. Mark likes to cite Hebrews 11:1-3, but the fact is that understanding the creation of the universe out of things unseen (which is something even TEs agree with) is only one paltry example in a long hallway of heroes of faith. God's engagement with the universe does not stop at creation, nor is it appropriate to use a metaphor in which the designer is irrelevant once the design is complete.

What is a better metaphor, then? I suggest we go back to the picture that the Bible uses: God as Father.
​​​​​​​​But now thus says the Lord,
he who created (bara) you, O Jacob,
he who formed (yatsar) you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine. ...

​​​​​​​​Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you.
​​​​​​​​I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
​​​​​​​​everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created (bara) for my glory,
whom I formed (yatsar) and made.”
(Isa 43:1, 5-7, ESV)
Isaiah 43 concerns itself with the re-creation of the shattered people of God. Creation language is heavily recapitulated: both bara and yatsar are terms that have been used of both the universe and man in the creation accounts of Genesis 1 and 2. And yet that would not have been the most endearing part of the prophecy: rather, the Israelites would have been encouraged to know that they were God's sons and daughters, and called by name and by His name.

There is ambiguity in the image of being "called by name": are the Israelites called by their own name, or by God's name? But if we use the image of parenthood, the ambiguity fits in neatly. On the one hand, children are called by their father's name; on the other hand, children each have their unique names, but they are also given by their fathers and so are also marks of family belonging.

Once we make that connection, we can see the image of parenthood in the Genesis 1 account of creation. For starters, the Spirit of God is brooding over the waters in 1:2. That is a deeply maternal image, a picture of a hen covering her eggs or her chicks (which Jesus desired to do for Jerusalem in Luke 13:34). Next, God commands creation into existence. This is not just an act of power - creating - but also an act of love - naming. And on the one hand, He gives all things their own names, precious to Him; but at the end of each day He also calls them by His own name: He declares that they are "good".

Why is the image of parenthood more powerful than the image of design? Simply this: a complete design no longer needs its designer; however, children never outgrow their parents' love. God the Creator still sustains all things through the power of His word, His naming that gives all things meaning and existence. Just as children are free to make their own decisions, but still depends on the providence of their parents, so also the universe has been given the power to exist freely while constantly depending on God for its existence. And far better than design, parenthood accurately captures the loving heart of God:
Can a woman forget her nursing child,
that she should have no compassion
on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget,
yet I will not forget you.
(Isa 49:15, ESV)
======

So there, some good reasons for Christians who believe in intelligent design to nonetheless reject Intelligent Design. Then again, try telling the school administrators that they need to devote equal time to the teaching of evolution and Planned Parenthood ... ;)
 
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shernren

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Next time someone mentions the Pope, I'll remember that he is a pure undiluted Atheist. That kinda changes the whole "is the Pope Catholic?" question.

As opposed, I suppose, to an atheist who's been dissolving a bit of himself with a touch of the ol' ethanol.
 
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mark kennedy

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For someone who constantly complains about unfair debating tactics, mark certainly enjoys packing his arsenal with them. His pet peeve is that evolutionists use "equivocation" to muddy the water; but mark himself has employed that tactic in this post.

Notice you are not talking to me, referring to me in the third person is an indicator of a performance. If you think my debate tactics are fallacious then get on with the substantive argument for it. Otherwise, the equivocation of natural science with naturalistic assumptions remains. If you were to make an argument to the contrary you would be the first.

Your argument is not against me, it's against this crucial profession of faith:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (Hebrews 11: 1-3)​

You pretend that there is not proof of this, I know better:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)​

The creation? What could Paul be referring to except the Genesis account of creation. The man was a devout Jew and there is not why he has in mind purely naturalistic causes. Sooner or later you are going to have to come to terms with this and while the happy backslapping is luring you into a false sense of security. I think you are being used, that's just how I feel about it.

First he says:
Intelligent Design is natural theology, plain and simple.
After some irrelevant soliloquy about science as a philosophy he gets to the point:
What we 'know' about God is that he is Creator or Designer or we have no basis for faith, in the Christian sense, unless God is. ... you think that this knowledge is phony ... I personally find that attitude biased and unchristian ..​
.

Your point being...

Can you see the equivocation? God has been redefined, in mark's thought, from the Creator to "the Creator who must have Designed life according to the criteria set out by the IDists". It is the kind of logical leap that is "refudiated" ;) by insightful quotes like these:

That's sick, that's not what I said and it's not what I argue. You have a nerve to make these erroneous and slanderous statements. God as Creator is a given in the Scripture and my real problem with ID is that it does not go far enough. If you don't believe in God as creator/designer then you have no rational basis for faith in the Biblical sense.

I believe there is a Mind who was before all things and through whom all things are held together (Colossians 1:17): I believe that Mind is the intelligence behind all that exists in the universe. Hence, I believe in intelligent design. Does that by definition then, place me in the Intelligent Design (ID) movement? No.

If you believe in an intelligent designer then you are an intelligent design proponent. Otherwise you have espoused a purely naturalistic philosophy and it clouds all you thinking with regards to origins. This is as basic as it gets and the duplicity of your argument here is evident and obvious. You believe that the universe was the result of an idea from the mind of God and yet you don't believe in Intelligent Design. I think you are confused.

Why should Christians who believe in intelligent design nevertheless reject Intelligent Design? Here are three reasons, from specific to general:​

This should be fun...

1. Intelligent Design proponents' portrayals of "design" do not accurately reflect optimal design principles.

Design principles you never define or even describe.

Note that I am not saying that "evolution produces suboptimal design" (a claim I find unhelpful at best and downright wrong at worst); I am saying that IDists themselves, based on the design principles they see in nature, would never be employed as actual designers.

And yet it appears in textbooks with regularity. This is pure undiluted Darwinism and if you don't see that it's a common theme in Darwinian reasoning then your either not paying attention or you are ignoring the obvious.

For example, they like to harp on irreducible complexity, because it is apparently unevolvable. Never mind the morass of evidence that IC traits in fact have evolved and do evolve. Is IC a universal trait of intelligent design? By no means. In fact, if anything, many applications call for multiple redundancy.

Only humans make harps, only humans make tools, only humans even ask these questions. There is a good reason for that, we were created in the image of the living God. It's time you realized that.

Imagine an irreducibly complex space shuttle or banking IT network, where the absence of one component renders the system unable to perform its intended function. Would you drive a car if its engine stopped working every time the window motors malfunctioned? Would you trust a co-worker who couldn't do any work every time one of his pencils went missing? On the other hand, there are two human designers who produced illustrious portfolios of irreducibly complex designs: Heath Robinson and Rube Goldberg. And yet they weren't patented inventors, they were cartoonists. Their designs were caricatures precisely because they were irreducibly complex. Oh, they were cleverly designed, alright. But would you really want an automatic napkin wiper that depended on a lever tossing a cracker to a parrot?

You have a tendency ramble but this analogy is hopelessly confused. I don't know what you intended here but it has nothing to do with intelligent design. Keeping a cracker from a parrot? Seriously?

What about specified complexity? Surely that is a mark of intelligent design? To answer that, one need only pay a visit to the Patent Office, where one will readily come across every unspecified design known to man (and which can be profited from). Do patent applications specify measurements and weights? Do they require exact blueprints and detailed schematics? Not often; because the power of the idea in a patent is often in its generality, and the implementation is left up to whoever wishes to make a fast buck. Also, visual art is notoriously unspecified: the same painting can be interpreted by any number of viewers in any number of ways. And yet, despite its deliberate vagueness, visual art is not only considered intelligent but also fundamentally human and creative.

Ok, specified complexity is essential Intelligent Design. The real issue is that you know the difference as does the patent office. Specificity is readily detectable, in fact it's evident and obvious.

Taking a look at life tells us that even these design concepts were not rigorously applied by the Intelligent Designer himself. It is telling that most IDists resort to bacteria as their showpieces: for how is any multicellular life-form irreducibly complex? Is it irreducibly complex for us to have two lungs and two kidneys? Is it specified for the same finger structure to be reused across the vertebrates for wings, fins, legs, and hands? Is it specified for keratin to be the stuff both of soft hair and hard, sharp claws?

Fundamental questions remain unanswered, in fact, they remain unasked. I will continue to remind you of these questions. I will continue to remind you that you are begging the question of proof on your hands and knees.

Just as the meaning of a sentence depends upon the specific arrangement of the letters in a sentence, so too does the function of a gene sequence depend upon the specific arrangement of the nucleotide bases in a gene. Thus, molecular biologists beginning with Crick equated information not only with complexity but also with “specificity,” where “specificity” or “specified” has meant “necessary to function” (Crick 1958:144, 153; Sarkar, 1996:191)...

...Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI.Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories Stephen C. Meyer
78585-004-A63E1F47.jpg


The design metaphors used by IDists are inconsistent and unhelpful biologically, to say the least. And it is not just in biology that they are unhelpful:

2. The metaphor of design damages theistic viewpoints.

Let's see where you go with this.

It is telling that Paley imagined himself coming across a watch in a heath, and from there postulating a watchmaker instead of interviewing one. The design metaphor focuses a lot more attention on the design than on the designer, and on creation as evidence rather than the revelation of the Creator. It is no accident that John Henry Newman responded to Paleyism negatively:
Observe, then, Gentlemen, that Physical Theology teaches three Divine Attributes [power, wisdom, and goodness], I may say, exclusively; and of these, most of Power, and least of Goodness. And in the next place, what, on the contrary, are those special Attributes, which are the immediate correlatives of religious sentiment? Sanctity, omniscience, justice, mercy, faithfulness. What does Physical Theology, what does the Argument from Design, what do fine disquisitions about final causes, teach us, except very indirectly, faintly, enigmatically, of these transcendently important, these essential portions of the idea of Religion? ... Indeed, a Being of Power, Wisdom, and Goodness, and nothing else, is not very different from the God of the Pantheist.​
Isn't the whole point of the ID movement that design can somehow be assessed independently of any knowledge of the Designer? If not, it isn't science; but if it is, how can it possibly claim to help Christianity? In Christianity, the truth about God does not begin in artifacts and archeology but in contact with the Incarnate, crucified and resurrected Word.

Nevertheless the historicity of Scripture is vital, Paley knew that which is why he wrote another book on Christian Apologetics. The teleology argument is still valid and while I'm encouraged that you actually read Paley the substance of his arguments remains reasonable and rational. The only way you don't come to a conclusion of an Intelligent Designer is if you are harboring an atheistic worldview.

Furthermore, ID denies the providence of God. Paley begins his argument thus:
In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer.[/indent[But is not the stone as much as the watch there by the will of God? Was it not along with the raw materials that became the watch created for the Son by the will of the Father through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Or do only the parts of creation that look like Rube Goldberg machines get to glorify God?​


ID denies nothing of the sort, after creation God has provided for adaptation. You are being absurd as usual and denying the obvious. How do you explain the watch?

3. There are far better analogies for creation in the Bible than intelligent design.

To be fair, the Bible does describe intelligent design:
​​​​​​​​An idol! A craftsman casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
and casts for it silver chains.
​​​​​​​​He who is too impoverished for an offering
chooses wood that will not rot;
he seeks out a skillful craftsman
to set up an idol that will not move.
Isa 40:19-20 (ESV)​


It seems to me that the idol we are discussing here is an idol of the mind. While you have enjoyed a lot of applause in the Darwinian theater of the mind you have yet to actually make a substantive argument from the evidence or even bothered to address the clear testimony of the Scriptures.

Sorry but I'm out of room, catch you on the rebound.​
 
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shernren

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Notice you are not talking to me, referring to me in the third person is an indicator of a performance.

Of course I wasn't talking to you. I know by now that you simply don't have what it takes to respond to a long post from me. Hence the third person. I wouldn't feed steak to a baby.

The fact that you committed the very equivocation of equating intelligent design to Intelligent Design right after I had called you on it shows your unrivalled resistance to correction.

Here's a simple question for you (note the second person this time):
Would you still have grounds for believing that the universe had been created by God if whatever life it contained was neither irreducibly complex nor specifiably complex?
If no, then you are going beyond the Bible, for the Bible itself simply states that God created without specifying what or how he did it.

If yes, then you have just agreed with every TE on the board who agrees that God created life but disagrees with the ID movement.

So which are you mark, a Bible-rejecter or a TE? ;)

Sorry but I'm out of room, catch you on the rebound.

That's what you always say ... ;)

By the way, still think a transcript error is a mutation?
 
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shernren

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You have a tendency ramble but this analogy is hopelessly confused. I don't know what you intended here but it has nothing to do with intelligent design. Keeping a cracker from a parrot? Seriously?

Rubenvent.jpg


Intelligently designed, irreducibly complex, and inimitably laughable.

I'm sorry, but I don't have room in my intellectual life for a philosophy that reduces God to Rube Goldberg.
 
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mark kennedy

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Of course I wasn't talking to you. I know by now that you simply don't have what it takes to respond to a long post from me. Hence the third person. I wouldn't feed steak to a baby.

Been a meat eater for years, don't even try it. Your playing to the crowd and it's sad really.

The fact that you committed the very equivocation of equating intelligent design to Intelligent Design right after I had called you on it shows your unrivalled resistance to correction.

Well your inability to discern the difference between transcription and this nebulous transcription error testifies to your inability to do exactly that.

Here's a simple question for you (note the second person this time):
Would you still have grounds for believing that the universe had been created by God if whatever life it contained was neither irreducibly complex nor specifiably complex?
If no, then you are going beyond the Bible, for the Bible itself simply states that God created without specifying what or how he did it.

Of course I would, it's a self evident fact, God created the world and everything in it. The question is nonsensical from a Christian perspective.

If yes, then you have just agreed with every TE on the board who agrees that God created life but disagrees with the ID movement.

No, you can't agree with intelligent design and deny it at the same time, it doesn't work that way.

So which are you mark, a Bible-rejecter or a TE? ;)


I'm an evangelical with a determined interest in evidential apologetics, what's your story?


That's what you always say ... ;)

Thats what I have always believed.

By the way, still think a transcript error is a mutation?

Yep, never doubted it for a minute. It's your denial that is making all the difference. Sorry you can't admit your error and it's not semantics, it's moral. That's how I eventually took down sfs, he could not admit the obvious fact of a transcription error being a mutation even though it is exactly that.

I fell sorry for you.

Like Mallon you won't answer the principle question so I keep asking:


Just as the meaning of a sentence depends upon the specific arrangement of the letters in a sentence, so too does the function of a gene sequence depend upon the specific arrangement of the nucleotide bases in a gene. Thus, molecular biologists beginning with Crick equated information not only with complexity but also with “specificity,” where “specificity” or “specified” has meant “necessary to function” (Crick 1958:144, 153; Sarkar, 1996:191)...

...Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI.Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories Stephen C. Meyer
78585-004-A63E1F47.jpg


Your thoughts...
Mark
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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According to orthodox fundamentalist Neo-Darwinism, yes, intelligent design can be identified scientifically.

"Well, it [Intelligent Design] could come about in the folowing way, it could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilisation ... [came] to a very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, an intriguing possibility, and I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry and molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer. And that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe." -- Richard Dawkins, atheist preacher, 2008

Cosmic Log - Looking for alien DNA

Zecharia Sitchin says he's willing to stake everything he's written about alien astronauts on DNA tests that could be performed on the 4,500-year-old remains of a high-ranking Sumerian woman. It's the latest - and possibly the last - cause celebre for a fringe celebrity.

The way Sitchin sees it, the long-dead woman's genome could contain the signature of the gods and demigods he's been talking about since 1976.
 
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Mallon

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No, you can't agree with intelligent design and deny it at the same time, it doesn't work that way.
shernren's point is that you are conflating intelligent design with Intelligent Design (capital I, capital D). The former is the belief that the universe was brought into existence by an intelligent, all-powerful being -- something all evolutionary creationists accept. The latter is the belief that an intelligent, all-powerful being created life with irreducible/specified complexity -- something evolutionary creationists reject. Therefore, the terms are not synonymous. It's entirely possible -- and Christian -- to accept the former without necessarily accepting the latter.

Like Mallon you won't answer the principle question so I keep asking:


Just as the meaning of a sentence depends upon the specific arrangement of the letters in a sentence, so too does the function of a gene sequence depend upon the specific arrangement of the nucleotide bases in a gene. Thus, molecular biologists beginning with Crick equated information not only with complexity but also with “specificity,” where “specificity” or “specified” has meant “necessary to function” (Crick 1958:144, 153; Sarkar, 1996:191)...

...Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI.Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories Stephen C. Meyer
78585-004-A63E1F47.jpg
Those aren't even questions, so I don't know how I'm supposed to answer them. If your point is that life appears too complex to have evolved, I'll answer you as I always do: That's a classic argument from personal incredulity. It's negative evidence. A logical fallacy. The last time I told you this, you got all up-in-arms and accused me of ad hominem attacks. If you can't recognize a logical fallacy when you make one, I don't see how I can help you any further.
 
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mark kennedy

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Rubenvent.jpg


Intelligently designed, irreducibly complex, and inimitably laughable.

I'm sorry, but I don't have room in my intellectual life for a philosophy that reduces God to Rube Goldberg.

"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?

If you had responded to my rebuke,
I would have poured out my heart to you
and made my thoughts known to you.

But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,

since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,

I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-(Proverbs 1: 22-26)​

Again, who is the fool in this proverb? Your chasing the wind, good luck with that.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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