Who did away with the law?

[Frogster]

Fault still lays with them.. In the first covenant, they said all you say we will do.. but they failed to do justice and show mercy... God has made in the new covenant relationship that He is will be the Judge, High Priest, and He will administer the punishment.

Sure the fault was with the peole, but it does prove that the old cov was always broken.

 

[Frogster]

One trick theological ponies are a waste of time to ride on.

There are certainly scriptures available to SEMI-justify your conclusion given that your conclusion is the ONLY conclusion available, but fortunately that argument is called an argument from limited available choices, meaning that there are other avenues of understanding available that will not fit your box.

Eliminating Old Testament Laws as being FROM JESUS is impossible. One cannot SEPARATE Jesus from God without getting into severe theological fouls. Jesus IS THE WORD and the OLD TESTAMENT are GODS WORDS as quoted by the Old Testament Prophets and THE LAW.

The LAW therefore is FROM JESUS as THE WORD.

This is what Jesus said about HIS WORDS:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Any view that subscribes THE WORD of JESUS as passed away (read OLD TESTAMENT LAWS) cannot get past the facts above, therefore they are FALSE views.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

enjoy!

squint

You could at least issue a proper greeting after you long vacation from the forum..

Your forgetting about an historical event that unfolded, Jesus also spoke through Paul, who did not want the Galatians under Moses.

How am I wrong?

Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[visionary]

Sure the fault was with the peole, but it does prove that the old cov was always broken.

Just as long as you understand, there is nothing wrong with the Law, It was not God who broke the covenant, and as the saying goes.. if there is nothing wrong with it.. don't fix it... God did .. He is working on fixing the people........ putting the law inside them.

 

[squint]

You could at least issue a proper greeting after you long vacation from the forum..

Your forgetting about an historical event that unfolded, Jesus also spoke through Paul, who did not want the Galatians under Moses.

How am I wrong?

I have engaged with you in conveying certain principles which many believers would consider quite solid on these matters, primarily this: There is no lawlessness that is authorized under Grace.

Saying 'I don't have ANY' would be a false representation in most legitimate views.

We also know for a fact that that the LAW IS for (or against) the LAWLESS, therefore it is fully applicable AGAINST lawlessness which EVERYONE has.

Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

I don't find Paul saying that the EVIL PRESENT with him was under Grace, or that the DEVIL he carried by his own admittance was NOT under The Law and under CONDEMNATION.

IF you (ever) are led to see that Paul was not just speaking and writing about HIS OWN SELF but his actual CONDITION (with the presence of SIN and EVIL) which same the LAW remains against you simply will not be able to come to SIMULTANEOUS conclusions, BOTH being FULLY TRUE.

The Law is FULLY TRUE and FULLY AGAINST all lawlessness which same is OF THE DEVIL.

Grace is also FULLY TRUE, but not applicable to the above working.

This has been my continual view of this matter, and I believe it remedies both sides of these ledgers, thereby eliminating the dilemma your view poses.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Frogster]

Just as long as you understand, there is nothing wrong with the Law, It was not God who broke the covenant, and as the saying goes.. if there is nothing wrong with it.. don't fix it... God did .. He is working on fixing the people........ putting the law inside them.

Hmmmm..nothing wrong with the law..hmmmm

Yet there is something wrong with living under law! Go figure!

And do you think God is putting the whole mosaic law in us now?

Think about that one.

If he was, why would Paul say no Sab, and confront Peter about the food?

Change in de priesthood, a change in de law as well.

 

[Pythons]

Thank you. I learned more than I wanted to know about the SDA but no where that I read did it say that they celebrate their Sabbath for the reasons you gave. For what I read they celebrate it because of the same reason that the Jewish people do, because it is the seventh day of the week.

You still don't "get it"....
...It's ok, it will come to you eventually.

 

[Frogster]

I have engaged with you in conveying certain principles which many believers would consider quite solid on these matters, primarily this: There is no lawlessness that is authorized under Grace.

Saying 'I don't have ANY' would be a false representation in most legitimate views.

We also know for a fact that that the LAW IS for (or against) the LAWLESS, therefore it is fully applicable AGAINST lawlessness which EVERYONE has.



I don't find Paul saying that the EVIL PRESENT with him was under Grace, or that the DEVIL he carried by his own admittance was NOT under The Law and under CONDEMNATION.

IF you (ever) are led to see that Paul was not just speaking and writing about HIS OWN SELF but his actual CONDITION (with the presence of SIN and EVIL) which same the LAW remains against you simply will not be able to come to SIMULTANEOUS conclusions, BOTH being FULLY TRUE.

The Law is FULLY TRUE and FULLY AGAINST all lawlessness which same is OF THE DEVIL.

Grace is also FULLY TRUE, but not applicable to the above working.

This has been my continual view of this matter, and I believe it remedies both sides of these ledgers, thereby eliminating the dilemma your view poses.

enjoy!

squint

Oh no...Squint..we have been through the SIN DWELLING EVIL PRESENT thing countless times.

I know..yes, the law and the flesh were a part of the Adamic creation..yes...

But our new man is created in true holiness, so if you want to wake up adam, and sin dwelling evil present, just walk under law, and that ole dog, the flesh,,will come running home.

Enjoy!

 

[visionary]

Hmmmm..nothing wrong with the law..hmmmm

Yet there is something wrong with living under law! Go figure!

And do you think God is putting the whole mosaic law in us now?

Think about that one.

If he was, why would Paul say no Sab, and confront Peter about the food?

Change in de priesthood, a change in de law as well.

Not you are getting into the statutes..The Law is the Ten Commandments.. the statutes are govern the state.. and the covenant is sealed with blood.

 

[squint]

Just as long as you understand, there is nothing wrong with the Law, It was not God who broke the covenant, and as the saying goes.. if there is nothing wrong with it.. don't fix it... God did .. He is working on fixing the people........ putting the law inside them.

When God Himself ELIMINATES the power of SIN, which same is of the DEVIL, then people will be equipped for LAW KEEPING as a Spiritual matter, without FAULT.

Until then those who think they are lawful while carrying that presence are also dodging the conclusions of that same Law.

No amount of LAW keeping eliminates the presence of EVIL or of SIN. It only exacerbates the reality of this condition. Paul wrote extensively of this fact in Romans.

When we see the reality of EVIL PRESENT with us and that working NEVER able to be LAWFUL or under Grace, then we also see the utter futility of 'trying' to make that presence go away or change, and instead we are fed with a very great piece of humble pie and the understanding of our dire NEED for Gods Great Grace and MERCY because of what we do in fact carry within our hearts.

Paul served The Law in his MIND because The Law, in reality is a SPIRITUAL matter that was never to be relegated to physical external limitations (dragging our bodies to a building on a certain day or doing X amount of rituals) in order to justify ourselves AND BE INCOGNIZANT of our present bindings with evil and lawlessness.

The Law leads us to the Truth of this exact matter and our NEED of HIM.

enjoy!

squint

 

[visionary]

When God Himself ELIMINATES the power of SIN, which same is of the DEVIL, then people will be equipped for LAW KEEPING as a Spiritual matter, without FAULT.

Until then those who think they are lawful while carrying that presence are also dodging the conclusions of that same Law.

No amount of LAW keeping eliminates the presence of EVIL or of SIN. It only exacerbates the reality of this condition. Paul wrote extensively of this fact in Romans.

When we see the reality of EVIL PRESENT with us and that working NEVER able to be LAWFUL or under Grace, then we also see the utter futility of 'trying' to make that presence go away or change, and instead we are fed with a very great piece of humble pie and the understanding of our dire NEED for Gods Great Grace and MERCY because of what we do in fact carry within our hearts.

Paul served The Law in his MIND because The Law, in reality is a SPIRITUAL matter that was never to be relegated to physical external limitations (dragging our bodies to a building on a certain day or doing X amount of rituals) in order to justify ourselves AND BE INCOGNIZANT of our present bindings with evil and lawlessness.

The Law leads us to the Truth of this exact matter and our NEED of HIM.

enjoy!

squint

Amen.. The Law is spiritual and must be spiritual discerned.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Just as long as you understand, there is nothing wrong with the Law, It was not God who broke the covenant, and as the saying goes.. if there is nothing wrong with it.. don't fix it... God did .. He is working on fixing the people........ putting the law inside them.

Personally I think the Jewish priests started making amendments based on what Moses gave and eventually they were adding things that not even the priests were living by.

I believe the Law was made for man and not man for the Law.

When Jesus came he made it clear that the Law was for men to have some guidance on living a Christian life with Love of God first and then Love of neighbor next.

as to neighbor I especially like how Jesus gave the story of the Good Semaritan to help us understand what a neighbor is.

So, Jesus did not do away with the Law but brought Grace and Truth to it. Now we are baptized with the Holy Spirit to help us and we know that even though we cannot be perfect like Jesus that we can get to Heaven through Jesus (our gate.)

 

[squint]

Oh no...Squint..we have been through the SIN DWELLING EVIL PRESENT thing countless times.

I know..yes, the law and the flesh were a part of the Adamic creation..yes...

You can make an attempt to place Law, The Words of God, of Jesus, in the same sentence with FLESH in the false hope that argument will pass away, but there is surely a great difference isn't there?

But our new man is created in true holiness, so if you want to wake up adam, and sin dwelling evil present, just walk under law, and that ole dog, the flesh,,will come running home.

Many try to salve their new man and ignore their evil present and sin in whatever form they choose.

The observations made will stand regardless. The Law is against lawlessness and Grace is for Gods children. Both are fully true and fully applicable and WILL NOT CHANGE or GO AWAY.

The Law was inextricably LINKED to LOVE in Romans 13, which same, Gods Law and LOVE will not be divided from. One can no more make LAW go away without making LOVE go away in the process.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Frogster]

You can make an attempt to place Law, The Words of God, of Jesus, in the same sentence with FLESH in the false hope that argument will pass away, but there is surely a great difference isn't there?



Many try to salve their new man and ignore their evil present and sin in whatever form they choose.

The observations made will stand regardless. The Law is against lawlessness and Grace is for Gods children. Both are fully true and fully applicable and WILL NOT CHANGE or GO AWAY.

The Law was inextricably LINKED to LOVE in Romans 13, which same, Gods Law and LOVE will not be divided from. One can no more make LAW go away without making LOVE go away in the process.

enjoy!

squint

Sorry..but in a nutshell, all you doing is proving that the law was of the flesh, in Adam..

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


Jesus is love, ...why does this loving law, work wrath?

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Please give concrete answers.

 

[visionary]

Personally I think the Jewish priests started making amendments based on what Moses gave and eventually they were adding things that not even the priests were living by.

I believe the Law was made for man and not man for the Law.

When Jesus came he made it clear that the Law was for men to have some guidance on living a Christian life with Love of God first and then Love of neighbor next.

as to neighbor I especially like how Jesus gave the story of the Good Semaritan to help us understand what a neighbor is.

So, Jesus did not do away with the Law but brought Grace and Truth to it. Now we are baptized with the Holy Spirit to help us and we know that even though we cannot be perfect like Jesus that we can get to Heaven through Jesus (our gate.)

I agree

 

[visionary]

Sorry..but in a nutshell, all you doing is proving that the law was of the flesh, in Adam..

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


Jesus is love, ...why does this loving law, work wrath?

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Please give concrete answers.

You ask why the Law brings wrath..

From man it is because of their carnal nature ..

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It is also from God on those who are disobedient, rebellious against His Law.

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,


Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

 

[squint]

Sorry..but in a nutshell, all you doing is proving that the law was of the flesh, in Adam..

It is certainly possible to only look at the GRACE SIDE of the ledger and spin that however you please to justify lawlessness, but that doesn't compute when one says, IN TRUTH....

"I HAVE SIN and have SINNED." The presence of the power of SIN is a PRESENT TENSE occupancy that is NOT GRACED, is ILLEGAL under the LAW and will NEVER be LAWFUL, which same power the LAW verifies in ALL.

Sorry..but in a nutshell, all you doing is proving that the law was of the flesh, in Adam..

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

The fact that the power of SIN that surely abides in the flesh is aroused only verifies the legitimacy of the LAW. That power does not stop working by dodging the LAW or ignoring it's presence.

Anyone IN TRUTH is comforted by that fact and GLAD that the LAW is against lawlessness and condemns same IN THEMselves and does not ignore the fact in the vain hope that it goes away. It doesn't. In that effort one is merely brought under the deception of that reality of it's existence by not speaking TRUTHFULLY. Sometimes speaking the truth of this matter is what identifies who is in control.

Jesus is love, ...why does this loving law, work wrath? Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

All lawlessness IN MAN remains UNDER condemnation and WRATH and eventually ETERNAL DAMNATION. Try murder sometime and see how quickly wrath will be found UNDER LAW.

Please give concrete answers.

You know the drill. I see NO MAN as MAN alone. The presence of the DEVIL with man is clearly taught in the scriptures. That working is UNDER LAW, WRATH, CONDEMNATION and eventually ETERNAL DAMNATION. There is no avoidance of this conclusion under LAW or GRACE.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Frogster]

You ask why the Law brings wrath..

From man it is because of their carnal nature ..

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It is also from God on those who are disobedient, rebellious against His Law.

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,


Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

Yes..fine..the carnal nature..

then we die to that and the law, because they scripturally went hand in hand, as per rom 7, and gal 2;20.

 

[visionary]

Yes..fine..the carnal nature..

then we die to that and the law, because they scripturally went hand in hand, as per rom 7, and gal 2;20.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Frogster]

It is certainly possible to only look at the GRACE SIDE of the ledger and spin that however you please to justify lawlessness, but that doesn't compute when one says, IN TRUTH....

"I HAVE SIN and have SINNED." The presence of the power of SIN is a PRESENT TENSE occupancy that is NOT GRACED, is ILLEGAL under the LAW and will NEVER be LAWFUL, which same power the LAW verifies in ALL.



The fact that the power of SIN that surely abides in the flesh is aroused only verifies the legitimacy of the LAW. That power does not stop working by dodging the LAW or ignoring it's presence.

Anyone IN TRUTH is comforted by that fact and GLAD that the LAW is against lawlessness and condemns same IN THEMselves and does not ignore the fact in the vain hope that it goes away. It doesn't. In that effort one is merely brought under the deception of that reality of it's existence by not speaking TRUTHFULLY. Sometimes speaking the truth of this matter is what identifies who is in control.



All lawlessness IN MAN remains UNDER condemnation and WRATH and eventually ETERNAL DAMNATION. Try murder sometime and see how quickly wrath will be found UNDER LAW.



You know the drill. I see NO MAN as MAN alone. The presence of the DEVIL with man is clearly taught in the scriptures. That working is UNDER LAW, WRATH, CONDEMNATION and eventually ETERNAL DAMNATION. There is no avoidance of this conclusion under LAW or GRACE.

enjoy!

squint

Sorry squint, you did not disprove how this loving law, works wrath?

Again..all your really doing is talking about the old creation order, and that sin, law, flesh, go hand in hand..

Most know that.

Why did sonship come after the age of law, as per gal 4?

You have got to look at the historic unfolding of scrpture, and not try to go back to a past era.

Look here..SO THAT..is a very important thing.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit [5] through faith.

By the way, notice how the loving law, was a curse too.

 

[Frogster]

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Amen!