Who did away with the law?

[Pythons]

so the fact that God wrote the ten commandments, the only thing that God Himself wrote to mankind, means what to you?

In the Christian age it means nothing more then anything else God commanded Israel to do...
...As the following text demonstrates.

But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.

According to Scripture - the commandments on stone were NOT all the commandments...
...The law was a single UNIT.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised [ opts for Law of Moses ], that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

The law was ONE unit which contained moral and ceremonial aspects....
...Moral code is truth and is NOT subject to change while ceremony is.

A pagan savage who lives in the jungle is commanded by nature to know stealing is wrong....
...The individual also knows murder and sleeping with another mans wife is wrong.
...That individual is NOT commanded by nature to observe a seventh day Sabbath.

Because the sabbath is activated by TIME it by nature is NOT perpetual therefore it is not MORAL...
...The natural or moral command to give to God some time is MORAL or natural.
...Which is why every culture has set aside a time to worship their god(s).
...That's the moral part - the worship.

Christ slaughtered the Sabbath and instructed the Apostles to abuse the corpse of the Sabbath.

 

[visionary]

In the Christian age it means nothing more then anything else God commanded Israel to do...
...As the following text demonstrates.



According to Scripture - the commandments on stone were NOT all the commandments...
...The law was a single UNIT.



The law was ONE unit which contained moral and ceremonial aspects....
...Moral code is truth and is NOT subject to change while ceremony is.

A pagan savage who lives in the jungle is commanded by nature to know stealing is wrong....
...The individual also knows murder and sleeping with another mans wife is wrong.
...That individual is NOT commanded by nature to observe a seventh day Sabbath.

Because the sabbath is activated by TIME it by nature is NOT perpetual therefore it is not MORAL...
...The natural or moral command to give to God some time is MORAL or natural.
...Which is why every culture has set aside a time to worship their god(s).
...That's the moral part - the worship.

Christ slaughtered the Sabbath and instructed the Apostles to abuse the corpse of the Sabbath.

Well as Lord of the Sabbath.. then He should have given us a sample of this...during His life time.. rather than honoring it.

 

[bugkiller]

ugh...Im not seeing any OT scripture there...so mind showing me again where it was written in OT Law that the Law was going to be thrown out the window? If you're going to reference Jeremiah 31:31-40 I'm with ya...would love to discuss it.

OK since I have discussed this very reference all over this site, I am game. So what are your thoughts on Jer 31:31-40?

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

OK since I have discussed this very reference all over this site, I am game. So what are your thoughts on Jer 31:31-40?

bugkiller

I have a thread on that here if you would like to bump it up

http://www.christianforums.com/t7326950/
New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

 

[Pythons]

Well as Lord of the Sabbath.. then He should have given us a sample of this...during His life time.. rather than honoring it.

He ( Jesus ) did give us an example and meaning of the Sabbath...
...Which was NOT a planetary Gregorian Saturday.

Sacred Scripture tells us that Jesus made everything that is;

All things were made by him; and without him was NOT any thing made that was made.

The Sabbath was a "STATE" of perfection that humanity was intended to forever live in...
...Our 1st Parents sinned and were removed from that STATE.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

As Lord of Creation Jesus would also, by default be Lord of the Sabbath...
...Which was a "state of rest" Adam and Eve lived in.
...A state which God intended to be perpetual.

Man sins and is ejected OUT of God's rest [ sabbath ]...
...As the Hebrew word proves.

Strong's H-6093 [ `itstsabown ]

1) pain, labour, hardship, sorrow, toil

The above is the exact opposite of the State Adam and Eve lived in prior to sin...
...Which proves the state of the sabbath is the meaning & not the Gregorian day.

 

[visionary]

He ( Jesus ) did give us an example and meaning of the Sabbath...
...Which was NOT a planetary Gregorian Saturday.

Sacred Scripture tells us that Jesus made everything that is;



The Sabbath was a "STATE" of perfection that humanity was intended to forever live in...
...Our 1st Parents sinned and were removed from that STATE.



As Lord of Creation Jesus would also, by default be Lord of the Sabbath...
...Which was a "state of rest" Adam and Eve lived in.
...A state which God intended to be perpetual.

Man sins and is ejected OUT of God's rest [ sabbath ]...
...As the Hebrew word proves.

Strong's H-6093 [ `itstsabown ]



The above is the exact opposite of the State Adam and Eve lived in prior to sin...
...Which proves the state of the sabbath is the meaning & not the Gregorian day.

Not exactly disagreeing with this sabbath you presented... Just wanted to know why Yeshua example by His life, was He keeping the weekly sabbath and stated that He was Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[Pythons]

Not exactly disagreeing with this sabbath you presented... Just wanted to know why Yeshua example by His life, was He keeping the weekly sabbath and stated that He was Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus observed all the ceremonial(s) of Judaism...
...So that He could "Fill Full" both the law & prophets.

 

[visionary]

Jesus observed all the ceremonial(s) of Judaism...
...So that He could "Fill Full" both the law & prophets.

Can it be said that Yeshua invented/created Judaism as He is the Lord of it all?

 

[Pythons]

Can it be said that Yeshua invented/created Judaism as He is the Lord of it all?

Judaism is / was a form of punishment, i.e. a task-master...
...Which was set up by God ( Father, Son & Holy Spirit ) to prepare the world for Christ.

Yes, Jesus is Lord of everything so that every knee bows ( Phili 2,10 ).

Judaism ( AKA the law(s) which it was composed of ) was the enemy Christ slaughtered...
...Not the Jewish people but the ceremonials intended to demonstrate we needed God's Grace.

 

[visionary]

Judaism is / was a form of punishment, i.e. a task-master...
...Which was set up by God ( Father, Son & Holy Spirit ) to prepare the world for Christ.

Yes, Jesus is Lord of everything so that every knee bows ( Phili 2,10 ).

Judaism ( AKA the law(s) which it was composed of ) was the enemy Christ slaughtered...
...Not the Jewish people but the ceremonials intended to demonstrate we needed God's Grace.

Fault was found with the people not the law.. so why do away with something that is not faulty. Second thing.. Judaism is not a form of punishment, it is a faith based lifestyle of worship.

 

[98cwitr]

OK since I have discussed this very reference all over this site, I am game. So what are your thoughts on Jer 31:31-40?

bugkiller

Let's break it down:


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.


Ok, the new covenant is when Christ comes, got that.


32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [a] them, "
declares the LORD.


Will be different than the Old Covenant, no more salvation by trying to follow the Law, but through faith in Christ


33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


It is known that all those in Christ are considered to be in the house of Israel. Those that follow Christ think about what Christ wants from them constantly, and we know in our hearts what's really right and wrong via the HS. We are God's people too.


34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."


Thus begins my hangup. We still tell each other all the time and try to teach each other, not everyone knows the Lord. The last line shows the grace of God for forgiveness of sins. But He doesn't say why.....(we know why though, but I am making a point here).


35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:


All well and good here.


36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."


So when the moon and stars vanish from existence will Israel stop being a nation to God. Hopefully this will never happen. New stars are being born all the time.....


37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.


Aren't we doing this? Aren't we measuring the heavens and searching the depths of the earth? That's kinda scary....(I made a thread about it even).


38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."


I googled the Tower of Hananel and found nothing but where people think of the site in which it stood. Has it been rebuilt? What city?

 

[7steps]

The question was asked in the O.P. , "who did away with the law"?

If, as Seventh day Adventists maintain, that the 7th day Sabbath is the center of the law...
...Then the SDA's did away with the law & it's easily proven.

The Seventh day Adventist Church is the direct outgrowth of the Millerite movement...
...William Miller predicted that Christ would come back 1st in 1843 then again in 1844.

William Miller interpreted key passages in the Book of Daniel and Revelation in support of his premise...
...And claimed the prophetic schema was tied together ( validated ) by Christ being killed in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover.

William Miller knew that according to the Gregorian Calendar Passover in 31 A.D. did not coincide with a Friday, Sat, Sun...
...So Miller used a calendar system which would allow the Sabbath to fall at the needed time.

Jesus did not return to earth at Miller's predicted time & Miller, realizing his error, rejected his prophetic schema...
...The SDA's however did not and instead said Miller had the right time but wrong event.

The I.J. doctrine of the SDA's is ONLY supported by the specific time criteria of Millers prophetic schema...
...& Miller's prophetic code REQUIRES that Christ died at Passover in 31 A.D.
...Which also requires that Nisan 14 be the day of preporation / Sabbath.
...Problem is that according to a Gregorian Calendar it was Tue/ Wed.


The Jewish Liturgical month was/ is Lunar and Passover was the 14th day of Nisan...
...Nisan coincides with March or April on a Gregorian Calendar.


So there ya go. The SDA's have changed "the law and times"....
...Or said in another way they "have thought to changed times and laws".

I could not follow your reasoning but I guess that is why forums are so bad for these kind of discussions. You might want to make your point clearer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I could not follow your reasoning but I guess that is why forums are so bad for these kind of discussions.

Hello and welcome to CF .
Wow!

This is the first time I have seen a non-Trinitrarian Messianic post on GT in quite awhile. Have you checked out the MJ board yet?

http://www.christianforums.com/f34/
Messianic Judaism

 

[Frogster]

Well as Lord of the Sabbath.. then He should have given us a sample of this...during His life time.. rather than honoring it.

Why did Paul not want the sab enforced on the Galatians, or the churches of
Colossae?

 

[Frogster]

Not exactly disagreeing with this sabbath you presented... Just wanted to know why Yeshua example by His life, was He keeping the weekly sabbath and stated that He was Lord of the Sabbath.

He was also circumcised, is that a law for Gentiles?

Or do we have two faiths?

 

[7steps]

Hello and welcome to CF .
Wow!

This is the first time I have seen a non-Trinitrarian Messianic post on GT in quite awhile. Have you checked out the MJ board yet?


Thank you but I am not actually a non-Trinitrarian Messianic I don't ascribe to any "faith" (religion) I am not a Christian and I am not an atheist and I am not a Messianic Jewish person but if I wanted to register I had to pick something non-Trinitrarian Messianic was the closest thing. I do believe in following the law but not for the reasons that most people think it is there for. So I do practice my Sabbath but I did not clearly understand your explanation why 7 day adventist broke the law.

 

[Pythons]

Fault was found with the people not the law.. so why do away with something that is not faulty. Second thing.. Judaism is not a form of punishment, it is a faith based lifestyle of worship.

The "fault" is with the total of humanity ( not just with the Jews )...
...The Jews were simply God's chosen people w/ whom Salvation would come through.

The "Law" was simply the object lesson that man could NOT effect his own salvation...
...God Himself via the Person of Jesus did this.

 

[Pythons]

I could not follow your reasoning but I guess that is why forums are so bad for these kind of discussions. You might want to make your point clearer.

My point is that Passover in 31 A.D. did NOT coincide with a Gregorian Friday, Sat, Sun...
...Yet SDA's REQUIRE that Jesus died on Passover in 31 A.D.
...And that Jesus was put on the cross the day before the 7th day Sabbath.

William Miller knew this but needed Jesus to die in 31 A.D. @ Passover...
...Miller was forced to use an alien calendation system to justify his prophetic schema.

SDA's call out other Christians for NOT observing a Gregorian Saturday...
...When the glue that holds their religion together proves they DO NOT observe the "same Sabbath" that their religion was founded on.

That's my point.

 

[bugkiller]

Let's break it down:


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.


Ok, the new covenant is when Christ comes, got that.


32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [a] them, "
declares the LORD.


Will be different than the Old Covenant, no more salvation by trying to follow the Law, but through faith in Christ

I agree so far.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


It is known that all those in Christ are considered to be in the house of Israel. Those that follow Christ think about what Christ wants from them constantly, and we know in our hearts what's really right and wrong via the HS. We are God's people too.

Here is where I hava problem. Christians are not part of Israel in any way - Jew or Gentile. Gal 3:28. Verse 29 says that Christians are Abraham's seed. Others pick Romans 11:17-21 parable of the olive tree. Notice it says Christians partake of the Root and not the tree. The Root bearest (nourishes) the Christian. And I like the parable of the Vine and branches. It makes the matter even more clear. John 15:1-11. Here Jesus is the vine and the Christians are the branches. A direct connection to Jesus and nothing can be connected to Israel in this parable. Now back to Gal 3:28. If there is no Jew in Christ Jesus, how can there be an Israel in Christ Jesus? No Jew - No Israel.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."


Thus begins my hangup. We still tell each other all the time and try to teach each other, not everyone knows the Lord. The last line shows the grace of God for forgiveness of sins. But He doesn't say why.....(we know why though, but I am making a point here).

I don't teach my neighbor. What is the need of fellowship with the saints? Usually the law pusher presents this to do away with the new covenant which Jesus said is now enforce. They are looking for some kind of utopia. What does the Bible (even Jesus' own words) say? In Jesus' end times oratory (Mat 24:36-39) states that it will be no different than in the days of Noah when Jesus returns. So what gives? I think it is the meaning of every man his neighbor is speaking of those who know the Lord Jesus as their Savior or that every one will know the Lord in the sense of knowledge. We difinitely have a conflict in the natural fleshly mind. Yet Jesus states that the new covenant is current and enforce. (Mat 26:28)

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:


All well and good here.


36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."


So when the moon and stars vanish from existence will Israel stop being a nation to God. Hopefully this will never happen. New stars are being born all the time.....

Romans 11:1-5 says that God will and has not cast Israel out of the picture. Moving on to vs. 25 and 26 we see that all Israel will be saved. Even in Revelations National Israel has a part. So those that say Israel has been relpaced are incorrect. As well as those that say all Christians are Israelites.

37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.


Aren't we doing this? Aren't we measuring the heavens and searching the depths of the earth? That's kinda scary....(I made a thread about it even).

To a degree we are. We have also figured out that the heavens are unmeasurable. We still find other stars as far as we have been able to see with our technology and that we have not yet found the limits of the heavens. Mind boggling, isn't it?

38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."


I googled the Tower of Hananel and found nothing but where people think of the site in which it stood. Has it been rebuilt? What city?

These are questions that can only be answered by faith. Do you know of anything that the Bible is wrong about? I don't. There are some translation problems which continue to increase as do the versions. I accept that 1 penney plus 1 penny equals 2 pennies. Based on what? Somebody told me that. I also believe that 1 rabbit plus 1 rabbit can be as many as 16 easily. In some things one has only the option of belief. How do you turn dirt into humans? The Bible says our bodies are made from dirt and will return to dirt. How does dirt speak? I don't understand but we speak and even type messages.

bugkiller

 

[7steps]

My point is that Passover in 31 A.D. did NOT coincide with a Gregorian Friday, Sat, Sun...
...Yet SDA's REQUIRE that Jesus died on Passover in 31 A.D.
...And that Jesus was put on the cross the day before the 7th day Sabbath.

William Miller knew this but needed Jesus to die in 31 A.D. @ Passover...
...Miller was forced to use an alien calendation system to justify his prophetic schema.

SDA's call out other Christians for NOT observing a Gregorian Saturday...
...When the glue that holds their religion together proves they DO NOT observe the "same Sabbath" that their religion was founded on.

That's my point.

So 7th day adventist celebrate the sabbath on Saturday because Jesus was put on the cross the day before the Sabbath? I thought that hey celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday because it is the 7th day. And Sunday is the 1st in the Gregorian calender?