Who did away with the law?

[Frogster]

Rom 7:1Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? Rom 7:2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

You have reasons to ignor the lesson about a marriage to the law.

The rest of your study and response is obviously useless.

 

[Frogster]

Here is what Henry had to say about Matthew 5:17-20:

Could you please define all his commands. Why would Paul not want the Gentiles to follow "his commands"? ..Galatians.

Are they universal commands, or not?

frogster.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am trying to understand you train of thought since it seems contradictory. I highlighted 2 sentences in your post. In the first you claim that if she broke the commandment she would incur the death penalty, however, in the last sentence you claim that a Christian is free from the penalty of the law. So, if she is a Christian, then it follows that she is free from the penalty of the law and consequently, will not incur the death penalty. So, which one is it?

Perhaps we need to define better what the 2nd Death is in Revelation

Reve 2:11 The one having an ear, let hear! what the spirit is saying to the out-calleds.
The one conquering not no may be being injured out of the Death, the Second

Reve 21:8 To the yet timids and unfaithfuls and abominables and murderers and prostituters and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false-ones, the part of them in the lake, the one burning to fire and sulphur, which is the Death the second.

 

[VictorC]

i really do admire what you bring to the table VictorC, because i am convinced that you know a lot about the scriptures. we go back and forth on these subjects, and i know in my heart that you love the lord with all your heart.

with that said, i still have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, because verse 4 of romans seven tells me who has to die and verse 6 surely sounds like baptism to me.

Referring to baptism is a prejudice that you have imposed on the text, as the text contained in Romans 7 mentions nothing about baptism.

the law lost it's claim as stated in verse 3 which states that the "husband died" and that's what freed the wife from the penalty of adultery. that's what the verse says and there's no way to parse that imo.

According to the marriage analogy inserted into this text in verses 2 and 3, the husband has to die before the wife is free to marry another husband. Using that example, verse 4 redefines the terms that the author presented so that it applies our relationship with the law and with Jesus Christ:

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another----to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.​

The marriage analogy is presented first, and then the application of the analogy is given in the tenor of "likewise...". The first husband was the law, from which we need to be separated from before we can become married to another, Who is Jesus Christ.

The first half of Romans 7 is prefaced with the qualification "for I speak to those who know the law", and the narrative you're having so much trouble with is sandwiched between these two antithetical points made by the author:

• the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives - 7:1
• But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by - 7:6

The example of marriage was inserted between these to help lead the reader into the realization that one is bound (held, under dominion) to either the law or to Jesus Christ. It is not possible to belong to both, and redemption from the ownership of the law is a common theme most sabbatarians don't have a grasp of. Please remember that I was once a sabbatarian myself within the MJ community - and once redemption is understood, the exit door from sabbatarianism is only moments away. MJs also know the law a lot better than you do, and I was tempted to tell Frogster that there is no way you were a MJ. Your beliefs are more attuned to Adventism, but you display minor variances away from that belief system that I'm very familiar with.

Instead of following the flow of a narrative written by the author, you jump ahead and practice the same method of "line upon line, precept upon precept" that Isaiah 28:13 warns us to be a eisegetical trap and snare. No doubt that's why you grasp at baptism, which is foreign to Romans 7.

Romans 7:13-14 ( NKJV ) 13Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

paul answers your question if you care to believe what he says. it wasn't the law but sin that was producing death, paul says so.

You had best reconcile that assertion with "sin through the commandment". If you care to believe what Paul wrote, you would have recognized your out-of-context sound bite can't be reconciled with the previous verses you skipped over:

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.​

In the longer narrative presented in Romans, you simply can't ignore the point made that sin is imputed by transgressions to the law in chapter 4. And unlike God, the law does not have the capability to forgive transgressions - it demands atonement by blood as its means of reconciliation.

the only way i know for the christian to die to the law, and notice the person dies and not the law, is to be baptized!

baptism is the symbolic act that shows a person put away the sinful self, and starting over as a new creation!

As I mentioned, baptism is foreign to the narrative we're considering. I don't want to rely on what you know, but rather point you to reliance on the text you're staring at. Dying to the law is an old idiom that means that the law is powerless to affect you, and conveys the same meaning as the law has lost jurisdiction over you.

i'm one who is not going to throw the ten commandments under the bus.

God didn't ask for your permission. As I mentioned before, direct quotes were furnished in many cases that show:

• The ten commandments was the covenant from Mount Sinai.
• We are not bound to that covenant that we have been delivered from and instructed to cast away.

It was God Who took the former covenant away, not mortal mankind, for it is Jesus Christ Who is referred to by "He" in Hebrews 10:9: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second". The new covenant is not compatible with the covenant from Mount Sinai, which conveys the same point that you can't be married to Jesus Christ and the law concurrently found in Romans 7. To claim that you are is adultery and open defiance to the new covenant. That leads to the next point...

so this question you posed:

how do you plan on escaping your death penalty for adultery, which violates the entire covenant?

Don't refer to baptism anymore; it is not germane. You're apparently content to practice adultery and you're making excuses to rationalize your practice away in your own mind.

i still have to disagree with you about the adam and eve deal, they were married and i know that there was a law that bound them together.

But you can't find that law, can you? There was no law describing marriage over Adam and Eve, and there was no ordinance describing adultery that had never happened in their lives. What you "know" is ridiculous to the point of inanity.

i told you one time before, i am not going for "the banana in the tailpipe", you can, but i simply won't go there.

Does anybody know what this guy is talking about?

 

[ImperialJohn]

It certainly wasn't G-d or Jesus, it was man!

The book of Luke and here in Matthew 5 it says it all in Jesus own words:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:17.

Jesus confirmed that the Law of Moses “The Old Testament and commandments” were to be observed and that he had not come to do away with them only to fulfil them. Heaven (the universe) and Earth are still here.

Here Jesus is quite specifically saying that he has not come to do away with the law or the prophets and that the law shall stand until this present Earth and Universe disappear and all has been accomplished. All is a pretty big word and there can be no mistake about what the Messiah meant with this plain statement of fact in black and white. Heaven and Earth are still here!

Jesus was Jewish. The only book and law that Jesus was talking about was the Old Testament [the Tanakh] and the commandments as that is what they had in their hand at the time, the New Testament had not yet been written. Jesus followed the Law during his life all Ten Commandments Gods Law handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai for all nations to abide by and confirmed that nothing would disappear from the law. The New Testament is different because it is for individuals not nations and how they should live their lives as individuals in relation to each other. The Old Testament and New Testament are both 100% valid (the whole bible) and is what believers should follow.

Here is some more of what our messiah and saviour said:

"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19-21

What Jesus said was quite clear, that we must keep the Commandments, that he had not come to abolish them and that unless we obey and keep the Tanakh [Old Testament] and Commandments to a level equal to the priests and teachers of the Law "The Pharisees" then we would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He also confirmed that anyone who breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches others to do the same would be called "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven, and that's providing they get there in the first place. This was only if they broke the least of the Commandments!

Mark 7:7-9 shows that many even go so far as to worship Christ, and all in vain because they do not obey God’s commandments especially the Sabbath but follow the traditions of men by which Satan has deceived the whole world.

I do not believe that Jesus sacrifice and what he did for us is a license for us to sin in any way shape or form. I do not believe that we can be saved if we continue intentionally sinning having known the truth, it would be far worse for us if we did that than if we had never known.

Jesus offered Himself as the final sin sacrifice, but He did not die so we could go on deliberately sinning. The Bible makes it clear that there is no sacrifice for the continuous intentional sins of believers, only the unintentional. Any intentional sins you would be judged by G-d directly.

"the grace of God is not a license to sin
but an opportunity to confess"
John Hagee

I believe its incorrect to assume that all sin is forgiven by Jesus sacrifice and that this gives a license to continue sinning. Once you know the truth and you still intentionally and knowingly sin it is a lot worse, and is not covered. I would be judged by G-d directly and have to answer for that. I may not inherit G-d's kingdom but could instead be going somewhere else. The knowledge and information about the living G-d is available to all in the Holy Bible.

Numbers 15: 30 "'But an individual who does something wrong intentionally, whether a citizen or a foreigner, is blaspheming ADONAI. That person will be cut off from his people.

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, or raging fire that will consume the enemies.

The above Scripture is not referring to those unclean bondages that dwell in our flesh but to the conscious choices believers make. It refers not to our unintentional sins but to those we pursue knowingly and willingly.

2 Peter: 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for a person is slave to whatever has defeated him. 20 Indeed, if they have once escaped the pollutions of the world through knowing our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah, and then have again become entangled and defeated by them, their latter condition has become worse than their former. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the Way of righteousness than, fully knowing, to turn from the holy command delivered to them.

How many of today's believers behave in a way they know is sinful and yet they go ahead and do what they feel like doing, anyway? That's because they mistakenly think Divine grace covers intentional sin. That is a huge misconception! Divine grace has made wonderful provision for unintentional sin. But there is no provision for intentional sin. The Bible tells us so.

Deliberate, premeditated sin is willful disobedience and rebellion against God. It results in severe punishment or even loss of our salvation.

Leviticus 26: 23 If, in spite of all this, you refuse my correction and still go against me; then I too will go against you; and I, yes I, will strike you seven times over for your sins.

1 Corinthians 6: 9. Or don't you know, that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of Elohim?* Make no mistake! Neither sexual sinners, nor idol-worshippers, nor adulterers, nor the corrupt, nor men who lay down with other men, 10. Nor the oppressors, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of Elohim. (AENT)

FOOTNOTE: Compare this to Matthew 5:17-20, where we are told that breaking the least commandment of Torah and teaching others to do the same makes a person "least in the kingdom" but they still get in. Y'shua implies that those with more serious sins won't make it in: "Depart from me, workers of iniquity, I never knew you"; but here, Rav Shaul gives a more specific list of what will keep them out.

1 Corinthians 6: 17. But he that joins himself to our Master (Y'shua), is with him one spirit. 18. Flee from sexual sin. For every (other) sin which a man commits, is external to his body*; but he that commits sexual sin, sins against his own body. (AENT)

FOOTNOTE:Actually the sexual sin goes deeper than the body, as the note on Romans 1:26 shows. But the other point is also that a sexual sinner brings sin upon himself rather than his partner, and vice versa, unless rape or abuse is involved.

It is not sin per se that causes a person who professes to be a believer to be eternally estranged from God but, rather, it is our surrender to sin which causes our faith and faithfulness to dim or completely die out. We flirt with spiritual disaster if we - by our thoughts, words, and conduct - deny Christ, reject grace, spurn redemption, and push away the Holy Spirit.

Under the Old Covenant, God put to death people who willingly disobeyed His commands or offered "strange fire" (Lev. 10:1-2). There was no atonement for intentional sin - and there still isn't. All of the sin offerings of the Levitical Law were for unintentional sin.

Case in point, Numbers 15:32-35 tells us: While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp".

The man who sinned willingly was not deceived in any way. He was not driven by uncontrollable impulses. He simply decided to ignore what God had said about the Sabbath. His reward was death.

Leviticus 4: 27 If an individual among the people commits a sin inadvertently, doing something against any of the mitzvot of ADONAI concerning things which should not be done, he is guilty.

Jesus said:

Revelation 3: 16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.’

Jesus loves us, but no sin is acceptable to Him, no matter how great or small. Like a loving parent, He will allow us to learn from our mistakes and forgive, but there comes a time when He will "draw the line" if we continue to rebel.

Has everything happened that must happen? Have heaven and earth passed away yet? If not, then Jesus never "nailed it to the cross" as many in the church have misunderstood (see Book of Romans). He gave us a chance at eternal life; not the permission to break any of His commandments or to do whatever we please.

There was no change in the law after the death of Jesus on the cross. There was no new understanding of his disciples, apostles and followers. They continued to keep the law, commandments and teachings including the Sabbath. Right the way through the Bible from the beginning to the end it is the same at creation, with Moses, with Jesus, with the Apostles and in the future kingdom.

The grace of G-d is not a license to sin.

I believe it is highly important that as a believer I follow the bible, commandments, and teachings of Jesus.

Cheers,

John

 

[ImperialJohn]

Perhaps we need to define better what the 2nd Death is in Revelation

Reve 2:11 The one having an ear, let hear! what the spirit is saying to the out-calleds.
The one conquering not no may be being injured out of the Death, the Second

Reve 21:8 To the yet timids and unfaithfuls and abominables and murderers and prostituters and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false-ones, the part of them in the lake, the one burning to fire and sulphur, which is the Death the second.

Why is God not real to so many people? Because God and the Word were composed of spirit, not matter, not flesh and blood, like humans. God is invisible to human eyes (Col. 1:15). He does not seem real.

Jesus taught us to follow the commandments and bible, to have grace and faith in what he did for us so that we may receive eternal life. Eternal life is not automatic for anyone. It has to be received as an unearned and unmerited gift granted by God.

Our soul is our physical flesh and matter body which dies. Our spirit is what lives inside us and enables a relationship with G-d's spirit. It enables us the ability to think, reason, have conscience, intelect. It's why even though our brains are vastly smaller than many mammals we are so superior. It's why chimps with the same size brains as us are not like us as they do not have a spirit in them.

When you die you are completely dead and without life. Your soul (body) reverts to dust. It is your spirit that can be resurrected for judgement and inheritance of G-ds Kingdom and eternal life through Jesus.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (KJV)

Everyone's spirit will eventually be resurrected and judged at which point we will either receive eternal life for our spirit or we will receive the second death, the death of our spirit and complete death. In the latter we would be completely erased and cease to exist.

That is my view and comprehension based on scripture anyway.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Rom 7:1Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? Rom 7:2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

You have reasons to ignor the lesson about a marriage to the law.
..You have died to the law,

...we are released from the law.

The rest of your study and response is obviously useless.

i have no idea of what you are trying to say.

 

[JohnRabbit]

JohnRabbit, this has been bumped up repeatedly for your acknowledgement, and common courtesy dictates that you should.



Direct quotes were furnished in many cases that show:

• The ten commandments was the covenant from Mount Sinai.
• We are not bound to that covenant that we have been delivered from and instructed to cast away.

Provide evidence for this alleged law, chapter and verse. Your misuse of Romans 7 addresses the law mediated by Moses, and it was used by the original author to show that a claim of belonging to both the law and to Jesus Christ is adultery.

i've already answered you in post #258.

if you don't like my answers, then i don't know what to tell you.

see, since you don't want to believe that God's law is still in force, the ten commandments, that zeal keeps you from understanding, that the covenant was a marriage relationship.

just like husband and wife agree to the tenants of their marriage, so did God and the COI at mt. sinai.

and then they were expected to live by the tenants set forth (ex 19-24).

the new covenant is tailored the same way!

a marriage! fancy dat!

ever heard of the marriage of the lamB!?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Referring to baptism is a prejudice that you have imposed on the text, as the text contained in Romans 7 mentions nothing about baptism.

According to the marriage analogy inserted into this text in verses 2 and 3, the husband has to die before the wife is free to marry another husband. Using that example, verse 4 redefines the terms that the author presented so that it applies our relationship with the law and with Jesus Christ:

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another----to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
​

The marriage analogy is presented first, and then the application of the analogy is given in the tenor of "likewise...". The first husband was the law, from which we need to be separated from before we can become married to another, Who is Jesus Christ.


The first half of Romans 7 is prefaced with the qualification "for I speak to those who know the law", and the narrative you're having so much trouble with is sandwiched between these two antithetical points made by the author:

• the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives - 7:1
• But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by - 7:6

The example of marriage was inserted between these to help lead the reader into the realization that one is bound (held, under dominion) to either the law or to Jesus Christ. It is not possible to belong to both, and redemption from the ownership of the law is a common theme most sabbatarians don't have a grasp of. Please remember that I was once a sabbatarian myself within the MJ community - and once redemption is understood, the exit door from sabbatarianism is only moments away. MJs also know the law a lot better than you do, and I was tempted to tell Frogster that there is no way you were a MJ. Your beliefs are more attuned to Adventism, but you display minor variances away from that belief system that I'm very familiar with.

Instead of following the flow of a narrative written by the author, you jump ahead and practice the same method of "line upon line, precept upon precept" that Isaiah 28:13 warns us to be a eisegetical trap and snare. No doubt that's why you grasp at baptism, which is foreign to Romans 7.

You had best reconcile that assertion with "sin through the commandment". If you care to believe what Paul wrote, you would have recognized your out-of-context sound bite can't be reconciled with the previous verses you skipped over:

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
​

In the longer narrative presented in Romans, you simply can't ignore the point made that sin is imputed by transgressions to the law in chapter 4. And unlike God, the law does not have the capability to forgive transgressions - it demands atonement by blood as its means of reconciliation.

As I mentioned, baptism is foreign to the narrative we're considering. I don't want to rely on what you know, but rather point you to reliance on the text you're staring at. Dying to the law is an old idiom that means that the law is powerless to affect you, and conveys the same meaning as the law has lost jurisdiction over you.


God didn't ask for your permission. As I mentioned before, direct quotes were furnished in many cases that show:

• The ten commandments was the covenant from Mount Sinai.
• We are not bound to that covenant that we have been delivered from and instructed to cast away.

It was God Who took the former covenant away, not mortal mankind, for it is Jesus Christ Who is referred to by "He" in Hebrews 10:9: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second". The new covenant is not compatible with the covenant from Mount Sinai, which conveys the same point that you can't be married to Jesus Christ and the law concurrently found in Romans 7. To claim that you are is adultery and open defiance to the new covenant. That leads to the next point...

Don't refer to baptism anymore; it is not germane. You're apparently content to practice adultery and you're making excuses to rationalize your practice away in your own mind.

But you can't find that law, can you? There was no law describing marriage over Adam and Eve, and there was no ordinance describing adultery that had never happened in their lives. What you "know" is ridiculous to the point of inanity.

Does anybody know what this guy is talking about?

you can spin it anyway you want VictorC, so you tell me how does one die to the law?

 

[Frogster]

you can spin it anyway you want VictorC, so you tell me how does one die to the law?

What was written in stone, now set aside?

2 Cor 3;7 Now if the ministry of death, chiselled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses’ face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, 8how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of justification abound in glory! 10Indeed, what once had glory has lost its glory because of the greater glory; 11for if what was set aside came through glory, much more has the permanent come in glory!

What cov was being spoken of here?

Hebrews 10:8-9 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

 

[VictorC]

you can spin it anyway you want VictorC, so you tell me how does one die to the law?

Romans 7:4 says "you also have become dead to the law".
Romans 7:6 says "now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by".
In both cases the verbs used do not indicate any action by the individual. Your question about how you're going to die is fallacious, and this idiom was addressed in my post.

Having that question resolved, please return to my post and tell me what spin you think it contains.

i really do admire what you bring to the table VictorC, because i am convinced that you know a lot about the scriptures. we go back and forth on these subjects, and i know in my heart that you love the lord with all your heart.

with that said, i still have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, because verse 4 of romans seven tells me who has to die and verse 6 surely sounds like baptism to me.

Referring to baptism is a prejudice that you have imposed on the text, as the text contained in Romans 7 mentions nothing about baptism.

the law lost it's claim as stated in verse 3 which states that the "husband died" and that's what freed the wife from the penalty of adultery. that's what the verse says and there's no way to parse that imo.

According to the marriage analogy inserted into this text in verses 2 and 3, the husband has to die before the wife is free to marry another husband. Using that example, verse 4 redefines the terms that the author presented so that it applies our relationship with the law and with Jesus Christ:

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another----to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.​

The marriage analogy is presented first, and then the application of the analogy is given in the tenor of "likewise...". The first husband was the law, from which we need to be separated from before we can become married to another, Who is Jesus Christ.

The first half of Romans 7 is prefaced with the qualification "for I speak to those who know the law", and the narrative you're having so much trouble with is sandwiched between these two antithetical points made by the author:

• the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives - 7:1
• But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by - 7:6

The example of marriage was inserted between these to help lead the reader into the realization that one is bound (held, under dominion) to either the law or to Jesus Christ. It is not possible to belong to both, and redemption from the ownership of the law is a common theme most sabbatarians don't have a grasp of. Please remember that I was once a sabbatarian myself within the MJ community - and once redemption is understood, the exit door from sabbatarianism is only moments away. MJs also know the law a lot better than you do, and I was tempted to tell Frogster that there is no way you were a MJ. Your beliefs are more attuned to Adventism, but you display minor variances away from that belief system that I'm very familiar with.

Instead of following the flow of a narrative written by the author, you jump ahead and practice the same method of "line upon line, precept upon precept" that Isaiah 28:13 warns us to be a eisegetical trap and snare. No doubt that's why you grasp at baptism, which is foreign to Romans 7.

Romans 7:13-14 ( NKJV ) 13Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

paul answers your question if you care to believe what he says. it wasn't the law but sin that was producing death, paul says so.

You had best reconcile that assertion with "sin through the commandment". If you care to believe what Paul wrote, you would have recognized your out-of-context sound bite can't be reconciled with the previous verses you skipped over:

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.​

In the longer narrative presented in Romans, you simply can't ignore the point made that sin is imputed by transgressions to the law in chapter 4. And unlike God, the law does not have the capability to forgive transgressions - it demands atonement by blood as its means of reconciliation.

the only way i know for the christian to die to the law, and notice the person dies and not the law, is to be baptized!

baptism is the symbolic act that shows a person put away the sinful self, and starting over as a new creation!

As I mentioned, baptism is foreign to the narrative we're considering. I don't want to rely on what you know, but rather point you to reliance on the text you're staring at. Dying to the law is an old idiom that means that the law is powerless to affect you, and conveys the same meaning as the law has lost jurisdiction over you.

i'm one who is not going to throw the ten commandments under the bus.

God didn't ask for your permission. As I mentioned before, direct quotes were furnished in many cases that show:

• The ten commandments was the covenant from Mount Sinai.
• We are not bound to that covenant that we have been delivered from and instructed to cast away.

It was God Who took the former covenant away, not mortal mankind, for it is Jesus Christ Who is referred to by "He" in Hebrews 10:9: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second". The new covenant is not compatible with the covenant from Mount Sinai, which conveys the same point that you can't be married to Jesus Christ and the law concurrently found in Romans 7. To claim that you are is adultery and open defiance to the new covenant. That leads to the next point...

so this question you posed:

how do you plan on escaping your death penalty for adultery, which violates the entire covenant?

Don't refer to baptism anymore; it is not germane. You're apparently content to practice adultery and you're making excuses to rationalize your practice away in your own mind.

i still have to disagree with you about the adam and eve deal, they were married and i know that there was a law that bound them together.

But you can't find that law, can you? There was no law describing marriage over Adam and Eve, and there was no ordinance describing adultery that had never happened in their lives. What you "know" is ridiculous to the point of inanity.

i told you one time before, i am not going for "the banana in the tailpipe", you can, but i simply won't go there.

Does anybody know what this guy is talking about?

 

[VictorC]

see, since you don't want to believe that God's law is still in force, the ten commandments, that zeal keeps you from understanding, that the covenant was a marriage relationship.

Gee, you just called Moses a liar, and I'm supposed to perceive your disaffection for the law as something other than abject hatred for it?
No, I'm not buying your opinion in deference to Scripture.

• The ten commandments was the covenant from Mount Sinai.
• We are not bound to that covenant that we have been delivered from and instructed to cast away.

Direct quotes were furnished for you, and you simply don't have an excuse to feign ignorance.

 

[Cribstyl]

i have no idea of what you are trying to say.

You said in your commentary of Rom7:3,4,and 6

..... with that said, i still have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, because verse 4 of romans seven tells me who has to die and verse 6 surely sounds like baptism to me.

the law lost it's claim as stated in verse 3 which states that the "husband died" and that's what freed the wife from the penalty of adultery. that's what the verse says and there's no way to parse that imo.

My commentary was;
You have reasons to ignor the lesson about a marriage to the law.

..You have died to the law,

...we are released from the law.


My comments was to quote from the key statements from the text.

CLARIFY.............
Rom 7:1-3 gives one scenario about 'a man and woman' in an eternal covenant of marriage. The texts explains; if the man dies, the woman becomes freed from that covenant of marriage, and she wont be an adulterer if she marries again.
Your comments is that woman is free from the penalty of adultery.

Rom 7:4-7 gives a second scenario with 'you and the law' in an eternal marriage covenant."
You dont want to acknowlege, if one party dies, the marriage covenant become void.
The word that I highlighted shows why that covenant is void.

You have died to the law,

...we are released from the law.


Rom 7:6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


You're misstating the facts.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Romans 7:4 says "you also have become dead to the law".
Romans 7:6 says "now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by".
In both cases the verbs used do not indicate any action by the individual. Your question about how you're going to die is fallacious, and this idiom was addressed in my post.

Having that question resolved, please return to my post and tell me what spin you think it contains.

Victor,
To JohnRabbits question is rather an easy one. You're not putting a spin on it, he is looking for a particular answer, at least I think.
To answer his question, it would be baptism!

Baptism of course is symbolic of the death and resurrection.

When one is buried in baptism, (put under the water), it is symbolic of death. Remember the husband dying. In baptism you die to sin and thus you die to the law. Rom 5:13 "......, where there is no sin there is no law." Thus you died to the law. Of course, one has to repent and accept the sacrifice of Christ, then Christ sacrifice is applied to ones past sins paying the penalty; goes without saying just to make this short. One is then under grace.

Put this here just because. When one comes up out of the water, it is symbolic of the resurrection. Putting on the new man. The old man has passed away. He now leads a life toward God, growing in the grace and knowledge.

 

[JohnRabbit]

What was written in stone, now set aside?

2 Cor 3;7 Now if the ministry of death, chiselled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses’ face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, 8how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of justification abound in glory! 10Indeed, what once had glory has lost its glory because of the greater glory; 11for if what was set aside came through glory, much more has the permanent come in glory!

What cov was being spoken of here?

Hebrews 10:8-9 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

i've already answered on this to you before, go look it up.

 

[YosemiteSam]

[

You have died to the law,

...we are released from the law.


Rom 7:6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


You're misstating the facts.[/quote]

Your miss reading the verse: " But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive..."

You seem to reason that it is the law that holds one captive...no! It is sin! Once one dies to sin, then they are released from the law.

Continue: "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (the letter of the law)

One now serves in the spirit of the law. Christ came to magnify the law. He made is spiritual. Matt 5:28 "Bit I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart." just to give and example. This is the spirit of the law!

 

[VictorC]

Romans 7:4 says "you also have become dead to the law".
Romans 7:6 says "now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by".
In both cases the verbs used do not indicate any action by the individual. Your question about how you're going to die is fallacious, and this idiom was addressed in my post.

Having that question resolved, please return to my post and tell me what spin you think it contains.

Victor,
To JohnRabbits question is rather an easy one. You're not putting a spin on it, he is looking for a particular answer, at least I think.
To answer his question, it would be baptism!

Baptism of course is symbolic of the death and resurrection.

When one is buried in baptism, (put under the water), it is symbolic of death. Remember the husband dying. In baptism you die to sin and thus you die to the law. Rom 5:13 "......, where there is no sin there is no law." Thus you died to the law. Of course, one has to repent and accept the sacrifice of Christ, then Christ sacrifice is applied to ones past sins paying the penalty; goes without saying just to make this short. One is then under grace.

Put this here just because. When one comes up out of the water, it is symbolic of the resurrection. Putting on the new man. The old man has passed away. He now leads a life toward God, growing in the grace and knowledge.

Wrong.
Baptism isn't the subject of Romans 7, and baptism is an action that the believer engages in. As I noted from the verbs used in Romans 7:4 and 7:6, the believer has died to the law by no action of his own. If you have an alternative take on what "you also have become dead to the law" means, you should find support for it in the narrative the expression is used.

By the way, I am learning that JohnRabbit is looking for only the answers he opines. This is a primary reason he refuses to accept Biblical passages in the manner they read.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Good evening!

Y

 

[JohnRabbit]

You said in your commentary of Rom7:3,4,and 6
My commentary was;
You have reasons to ignor the lesson about a marriage to the law.

..You have died to the law,

...we are released from the law.


My comments was to quote from the key statements from the text.

CLARIFY.............
Rom 7:1-3 gives one scenario about 'a man and woman' in an eternal covenant of marriage. The texts explains; if the man dies, the woman becomes freed from that covenant of marriage, and she wont be an adulterer if she marries again.
Your comments is that woman is free from the penalty of adultery.

Rom 7:4-7 gives a second scenario with 'you and the law' in an eternal marriage covenant."
You dont want to acknowlege, if one party dies, the marriage covenant become void.
The word that I highlighted shows why that covenant is void.

You have died to the law,

...we are released from the law.


Rom 7:6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


You're misstating the facts.

am i?

what you have highlighted in rom 7:1-3 is what i said!

yes, my statement was that she was free from the penalty of adultery.

why? because the husband died!

now, tell me how the woman is not free from the penalty of adultery.

the marriage contract was fulfilled! remember? till death do us part!

yes, so she is free to marry another!

released from the law does not mean she is free from keeping the law.

case in point, the woman is free to marry another. so, if she does, then she is bound by the marriage law again!

you are not released from keeping the commandments, but by the grace of God, you are released from its penalty!

how does one die to the law?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Wrong.
Baptism isn't the subject of Romans 7, and baptism is an action that the believer engages in. As I noted from the verbs used in Romans 7:4 and 7:6, the believer has died to the law by no action of his own. If you have an alternative take on what "you also have become dead to the law" means, you should find support for it in the narrative the expression is used.

By the way, I am learning that JohnRabbit is looking for only the answers he opines. This is a primary reason he refuses to accept Biblical passages in the manner they read.

how does one die to the law?