Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

[drich0150]

I see no reason why homosexuality is debated in the Christian section of the forum. The Bible is clear, contextually consistent in its condemnation, and Christianity has held this always.

As I have said a few times now the debate in of itself is not the issue. It is the fruitless nature of the debate that needs to be addressed. If directly addressing scripture does not work then why continue to do so? Their arguments in order to be successful only has to inspire doubt. For one who does not have complete faith in the word the arguments is over before you say the first word. I am suggesting that we drop what does not work in favor for something that does.

The Christian position is that we dont hate anyone let alone those who identify as homosexuals, we dont hate Westboro church either but we dont accept God hates homosexuals either as Christ came to save people, not condemn people. Christ condemned sin.

Then why not address their sin as a matter of sin and not a matter of right and wrong. If we approach the scripture that directly address their sin as being wrong then it is not a large leap for them to assume that "we" are right. All of their arguments are primarily center around casting doubt on our ability to identify what is right. Why not take a step back and find an area that both can agree on what is right and build a humble argument from their?

 

[drich0150]

Great post especially the above paragraph. If you look at homosexuality for what it is sex outside of marriage or adultery then consider that Jesus said that if you've looked at another lustfully then you have committed adultery already in your heart.

...Which make it a sin no matter how you decide to categorize it. The only way this can work, is if "we" decide to stop segregating ourselves and our lustful actions and thought from theirs...

95% of their arguments are defeated with this one idea, but it takes a humble heart, and a strong desire to make this "idea" more than a tool or weapon that can be used to stab at the hearts of those who we are supposed to be trying to save.

If "we" are arguing for any other reason than to help those who seek God a way to truly find Him through redemption of sin, (Rather than permisiablity of it) then it is better for us to walk away. For it is not to each other we have to answer to, but to God Himself. We would do well to remember Heb 4:
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Which means in this case, even if we say we are representing God and fighting the good fight for him, but in our hearts only wish to stab back at our enemy with Righteousness they can not refute, then it is to the "Word" as in John 1:1 that we will have to be accountable too. To this Word nothing will be hidden or misrepresented. This includes the intentions of our hearts, no matter how we address them toward others.

This is also why I asked that we goto the Holy Spirit for guidance rather than simply reloading our guns with this seemingly new ammo.

(It only seems new because "we" have infact insisted on this segregation of sin.) I personally think God used their arguments to help His people to see the true nature of our sins, and call us back with humility in our hearts. Those who go back will better represent God. Those who do not should know they have been sifted. And it is to the measure they use, that will be used against them.

 

[Phinehas2]

drich0150,
Well your approach may well be better, but the word of God is what together with the spirit produces fruit that lasts and life. So I cant see the point of abstaining from posting the truth against the denials, at least anyone who stumbles in gets to see the truth.
Quite why a Chistian forum cannot uphold the historic apostolic position with its uncontested consistent scripture throughout the Bible, is a mystery to me, it makes a farce of it.

 

[drich0150]

drich0150,
Well your approach may well be better, but the word of God is what together with the spirit produces fruit that lasts and life. So I cant see the point of abstaining from posting the truth against the denials, at least anyone who stumbles in gets to see the truth.
Quite why a Christian forum cannot uphold the historic apostolic position with its uncontested consistent scripture throughout the Bible, is a mystery to me, it makes a farce of it.

The Point I am making is to all who do not already believe, these arguments are already a farce. That's why they only spawn more arguments. They are for the most part built on the idea of right and wrong, if you choose not to defend this unbiblical idea then they have nothing to argue.

Remember it is not that we are right and they are wrong, we are both wrong according to scripture, we are only redeemed wrong doers. So it is a matter of wrong and those who have been forgiven for being wrong. Let go the idea of speaking from God's authority, and speak from the position of humility that you have been given. If you do this with a humble and contrite heart your efforts will be blessed. Or stay the path and maybe they will simply tire of typing.

 

[Phinehas2]

The Point I am making is to all who do not already believe, these arguments are already a farce. That's why they only spawn more arguments.

Thats true.
Yet of course the issue of homosexuality is just the tip of the iceberg of two quite different worldviews, Christianity and humanism; on will just encounter aguments at every point. Better the Christian - non-Christian dialogue, there people exchange the views and accept or reject, we dont get people telling us our views arent what they are. ;-) I can debate with self confessed non-believers, I can't debate with liberals.

As we both know, Jesus instructed His disciples to wipe their feet and depart in peace from those who rejected the message, He and the apostles didnt do so with people like the Pharisees who argued that the truth wasnt the truth, they said what was what.
Paul and other apsotles and disciples spent lots of time presenting and arguing the gospel, and ended up beaten and imprisoned.

 

[Bryanfromiowa]

...Which make it a sin no matter how you decide to categorize it. The only way this can work, is if "we" decide to stop segregating ourselves and our lustful actions and thought from theirs...

agreed god to see someone else with the same opinion

 

[onemorequestion]

The Point I am making is to all who do not already believe, these arguments are already a farce. That's why they only spawn more arguments. They are for the most part built on the idea of right and wrong, if you choose not to defend this unbiblical idea then they have nothing to argue.

Remember it is not that we are right and they are wrong, we are both wrong according to scripture, we are only redeemed wrong doers. So it is a matter of wrong and those who have been forgiven for being wrong. Let go the idea of speaking from God's authority, and speak from the position of humility that you have been given. If you do this with a humble and contrite heart your efforts will be blessed. Or stay the path and maybe they will simply tire of typing.

But then, are we to tire of typing?

Indeed the incessant drone of the pro gay lobby is to subdue the opponent by force or by harrassment.

Are we to drop our guard and allow some innocent seeker to be harmed by those that trying to force the Church to accept homosexuality? Non-no answers we give them, they see as direct approval.

Contending for the faith is serious business.

 

[Phinehas2]

Yes absolutely agree with onemorequestion, The LGBT aim is to eliminate all criticism of same sex relations AND get them accepted, and this includes the church.
Enough is enough, they have worked step by step twoards their aim without enough being done to stand up against it.
The other issue is we are not jugding anyone, only the sin of same sex relations where it is defended or promoted, we do, and will do the same for any sin, and we dont not cliam to be without any sin. The debate is whether same sex relationships are sin, and God's word says they are. The whole LGBT deabte is merely trolling, the LGBT side has NO scripture whatsover to contest clear scriptural exclusions and condemnations.

 

[drich0150]

But then, are we to tire of typing?

Indeed the incessant drone of the pro gay lobby is to subdue the opponent by force or by harassment.

Are we to drop our guard and allow some innocent seeker to be harmed by those that trying to force the Church to accept homosexuality? Non-no answers we give them, they see as direct approval.

Contending for the faith is serious business.

-Phinehas

Yes absolutely agree with onemorequestion, The LGBT aim is to eliminate all criticism of same sex relations AND get them accepted, and this includes the church.
Enough is enough, they have worked step by step twoards their aim without enough being done to stand up against it.
The other issue is we are not jugding anyone, only the sin of same sex relations where it is defended or promoted, we do, and will do the same for any sin, and we dont not cliam to be without any sin. The debate is whether same sex relationships are sin, and God's word says they are. The whole LGBT deabte is merely trolling, the LGBT side has NO scripture whatsover to contest clear scriptural exclusions and condemnations.

Again you completely misunderstand my position.

I am asking the "We" lay down the self serving arguments, and pick up a God serving approach that silences our opposition with love and humility. This approach will indeed accomplish everything that you have listed. The only thing it will not do is allow us to speak to them from a position of God's complete righteousness and authority. Rather, We will have to approach them as redeemed sinners.

If you Ask Seek and knock you will be able to tap into the Holy Spirit, He can and will guide the pure of heart. I started my arguments as you did, but when I saw how and why they did not work I asked God for help, not for more material to argue, but help to truly reach these people.

The material i was given was not something most of these guys are prepared to argue. So those only looking to argue have stopped speaking with me, and sought out the prideful arguments they know how to defeat, by bogging them down.

It's not that we should stop, but take a step back. Make an honest assessment of what and why our normal efforts do not work and then seek God's guidance as to how to proceed. Rather than representing God the way that is most comfortable to us.

That way seems to be speaking directly from God's authority found in the bible. Again, most of these people only recognize that authority in so far as to bog down an argument. Their deception is to give an appearance of one who seeks God in His word, but for one reason or another have not come to the conclusions you have. When in truth they only look in God's word for a doctrine of permissibility, and a way to silence those who speak out against it.

I am simply suggesting that we/you take back what is God's and use it the way He intended, rather than those without faith use the word, your arguments, and the pride you will not lay down as fuel for their life style. If they are approached by a sinner such as themselves they have no argument. Everything depends on their ability to segregate themselves from every other sin, and every other sinner. Once that is gone all they have left to argue is: "Because I said so, or I don't think.."

Besides if you think there are great numbers of non believers who line up to read page after of page after page, and thread after thread of the same arguments over and over, I would say that you are probably mistaken. Right now These threads only serve those who fuel them.

 

[drich0150]

agreed god to see someone else with the same opinion

This opinion is tied to a much large argument than what was highlighted.

 

[onemorequestion]

-Phinehas

Again you completely misunderstand my position.

I am asking the "We" lay down the self serving arguments, and pick up a God serving approach that silences our opposition with love and humility. This approach will indeed accomplish everything that you have listed. The only thing it will not do is allow us to speak to them from a position of God's complete righteousness and authority. Rather, We will have to approach them as redeemed sinners.

If you Ask Seek and knock you will be able to tap into the Holy Spirit, He can and will guide the pure of heart. I started my arguments as you did, but when I saw how and why they did not work I asked God for help, not for more material to argue, but help to truly reach these people.

The material i was given was not something most of these guys are prepared to argue. So those only looking to argue have stopped speaking with me, and sought out the prideful arguments they know how to defeat, by bogging them down.

It's not that we should stop, but take a step back. Make an honest assessment of what and why our normal efforts do not work and then seek God's guidance as to how to proceed. Rather than representing God the way that is most comfortable to us.

That way seems to be speaking directly from God's authority found in the bible. Again, most of these people only recognize that authority in so far as to bog down an argument. Their deception is to give an appearance of one who seeks God in His word, but for one reason or another have not come to the conclusions you have. When in truth they only look in God's word for a doctrine of permissibility, and a way to silence those who speak out against it.

I am simply suggesting that we/you take back what is God's and use it the way He intended, rather than those without faith use the word, your arguments, and the pride you will not lay down as fuel for their life style. If they are approached by a sinner such as themselves they have no argument. Everything depends on their ability to segregate themselves from every other sin, and every other sinner. Once that is gone all they have left to argue is: "Because I said so, or I don't think.."

Besides if you think there are great numbers of non believers who line up to read page after of page after page, and thread after thread of the same arguments over and over, I would say that you are probably mistaken. Right now These threads only serve those who fuel them.

What concession can be made to the pro-gay lobby without THEM seeing this as total approval and victory over the Church. This HAS happened in and to many denonminations already.

Sooner or later we HAVE TO make a stand and label this (them) as unreachable and define it that way. And in labeling "THAT" as unreachable, we are casting away people that rejoice in their sin at all costs.

 

[drich0150]

The opposition against sin does not change. What does is how we identify Homosexuality as a sin. It is still a sin no matter what others may say or believe, it's just we as the church needs to stop looking to segregate Homosexuality from the rest of the sins God has pointed out. All of the pro gay arguments center around this special segregation. If and when they break down the scriptures used to segregate this sin from the rest, they have the freedom to rewrite scripture. This is why so many churches fall to this practice. Once people can see that segregating this is maybe wrong they let the pendulum of righteousness swing in the complete opposite direction. So i say stop arguing what it allowing the pro gay movement to change the hearts and minds of the followers of Christ, and simply argue the fact that Homosexuality is a sin like any other sexual sin. Once you eliminate the segregation, their arguments fall flat, and is quickly stripped of merit.

If one does take this stance just to win an argument, and not as an opportunity to reach out to the lost, then I would think it would be better for that person to be gay and seeking God, and it would be for him to be using God's righteousness to simply needlessly oppress another and satisfy his own pride.

 

[Phinehas2]

I see the lost as those who have heard the truth and have rejected it or compromised it in their own pride. The one who defends the truth is not proud, boasting in Christ is not pride but humility.
One can reach out to those who have not heard the message, but those presenting a false message seducing itching ears is like the word being chocked by weeds.

The one seeking Christ is no longer gay and seeking God, they are merely seeking God, in God they will no longer identify as gay.

Sin is what the word of God has described, all sin leads to death, if a group wishes to identify one sin and deny it then the truth is not in. Thats up to them, those who speak the truth in love are no held accountable for the reaction of others. It is the truth that sets people free.

 

[DD2008]

True christians will never accept homosexuality as ok. The bible is clear that it is not and those who know Christ know the bible is true.

 

[Jase]

True christians will never accept homosexuality as ok. The bible is clear that it is not and those who know Christ know the bible is true.

No only are you committing the no true scotsman fallacy, you are violating board rules by calling those who don't agree with you not-Christian.

 

[drich0150]

True Christians will never accept homosexuality as OK. The bible is clear that it is not and those who know Christ know the bible is true.

Where in this post have you seen anyone at any time advocating Homosexuality as "OK?"

 

[drich0150]

No only are you committing the no true scotsman fallacy, you are violating board rules by calling those who don't agree with you not-Christian.

In a sense anyone who will not repent of sin is indeed a Non-Christian by definition. Whether that be against the rules or not.

 

[drich0150]

I see the lost as those who have heard the truth and have rejected it or compromised it in their own pride. The one who defends the truth is not proud, boasting in Christ is not pride but humility.
One can reach out to those who have not heard the message, but those presenting a false message seducing itching ears is like the word being chocked by weeds.

The one seeking Christ is no longer gay and seeking God, they are merely seeking God, in God they will no longer identify as gay.

Sin is what the word of God has described, all sin leads to death, if a group wishes to identify one sin and deny it then the truth is not in. Thats up to them, those who speak the truth in love are no held accountable for the reaction of others. It is the truth that sets people free.

The pride in this argument is not in the action you have described, but in the need to segregate one sin from another. If the point is repentance of sin, and a confession of that sin can happen whether or not the sin is segregated or not. then why is their a need to segregate? Especially when the opposition is ready to do battle with those who segregate?
The pride is in the willingness, want and desire to do battle when there is a more productive way available to us.

Acknowledging their desire to silence the bible on what is says about homosexuality specifically, is not the same as acknowledging the bible as being silent about homosexuality. Simply nod your head and move on to where the issue can not be disputed. The only thing being left behind is a non-scriptural persecution of one sinners sin of choice over another sinners sin of choice. Approach the gay man as you would a liar thief or a fornicator of any sort, and let the message of repentance speak for itself.

There is no need to judge or persecute any further than simply identifying an unrepentant sin.

 

[ivebeenshown]

A person who is only a week into quitting cigarettes may fiend when he sees another person with a cigarette, or simply have thoughts of cigarettes at times. Over enough time, and the desire to expel the mere thought of cigarettes, it can be overcome. It's called conditioning a response, and I just remembered a Psychology lesson regarding Pavlov's dog. It's basic psychology. We can condition our behaviors to meet God's desires. To claim we cannot condition ourselves against behavior that God has commanded against is called being unrepentant.

Genesis 2:
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

A 'husband' is not a 'wife'. A 'wife' is not a 'husband'. Moses has written: a man shall cleave unto his wife, because from the rib of Adam, woman was made.

Jesus had something to say about not believing what Moses has written:

John 5:
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

That is the eternal word of God. Moses wrote Genesis, and in Genesis chapter 5 we are told of Adam and his subsequent seed, and their ages, and names. If we don't believe Moses, how are we going to believe Jesus? Adam was a real man, and God formed woman from his rib. Therefore, a man shall cleave unto his wife, a woman, and they shall be as one. This is what Moses wrote.

 

[drich0150]

A person who is only a week into quitting cigarettes may fiend when he sees another person with a cigarette, or simply have thoughts of cigarettes at times. Over enough time, and the desire to expel the mere thought of cigarettes, it can be overcome. It's called conditioning a response, and I just remembered a Psychology lesson regarding Pavlov's dog. It's basic psychology. We can condition our behaviors to meet God's desires. To claim we cannot condition ourselves against behavior that God has commanded against is called being unrepentant.

Genesis 2:
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

A 'husband' is not a 'wife'. A 'wife' is not a 'husband'. Moses has written: a man shall cleave unto his wife, because from the rib of Adam, woman was made.

Jesus had something to say about not believing what Moses has written:

John 5:
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

That is the eternal word of God. Moses wrote Genesis, and in Genesis chapter 5 we are told of Adam and his subsequent seed, and their ages, and names. If we don't believe Moses, how are we going to believe Jesus? Adam was a real man, and God formed woman from his rib. Therefore, a man shall cleave unto his wife, a woman, and they shall be as one. This is what Moses wrote.

Which is the basis to my to the changes I am suggesting in my argument. In that Homosexuality is a Sin Outside the confines of a sanctified marriage. Not a special sin that need or calls for the need for the sinner to be segregated or chastised for their particular sin of
Choice.

Do we Chastise Liars? Do we segregate those who gossip even after Christ said that gossip was the most destructive sin to the body of believers? Homosexuality is a sin with consequence, but so are the rest. All unrepentant sin will receive the same Hell. All sin need the same redemption. So why not approach those who commit this sin the same way we approach every other sinner? Where is the Book, Chapter and Verses that says we must segregate those who practice this sin, and chastise them into submission?

Why them and no one else? If we approached them like everyone else then those who truly seek Christ may have the opportunity to find Him. As it is now they have to go through, all of our arguments and religious righteousness to Find Christ. Do you think Christ really wants us to put as much Pharisaical religion between Him and those who seek Him?