Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

[hamashiachagape]

No, because the "second role" is obvious to everybody. They couldn't claim that they were living in an age of universal peace and knowledge of God when those conditions were not met.

Furthermore, this time, the Messiah did not rebuild the physical temple. Thats to happen the second time around.

And instead of all of the Gentiles celebrating Sukkot, most Gentiles rejected it. Paul even recognized, as he was booed out of Ephesus in Acts 19.

 

[hamashiachagape]

B&W Pac, antimissionary strategies are only effective against Preterists.

 

[razeontherock]

Originally Posted by hamashiachagape
More stuff has to happen than just that though...you and I both know this.

They never mentioned for instance, the Torah going forth from Zion, and also all of the Gentiles coming up to celebrate Sukkot.

yeah, that hasn't happened either.

Excuse me?? Do I not exist?? Or am I just here to amuse you?!? [/Joe Pesci]

Seriously B&w, you don't see yourself stopping your ears just a tad on this one?

 

[b&wpac4]

What tactics? I am giving you what I read and can find. Jews for Jesus tactics don't work on me.

 

[hamashiachagape]

What tactics? I am giving you what I read and can find. Jews for Jesus tactics don't work on me.

I don't think Jews for Jesus is the best resource available either.

What I would recommend to you is a 5 volume series by Dr. Michael Brown. Its a book called "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus."

Also, if you like those books, he has another excellent book called "Our Hands are Stained with Blood."

 

[hamashiachagape]

Also, "They Thought for Themselves" by Sid Roth.

Maybe when my rabbi comes out with a book (here very soon) I can let you in on that too.

You can visit my synagogue's website at www.zionsake.org.

To be perfectly honest, the arguments presented on Jews for Jesus either a) put me to sleep or b) I actually disagree with.

 

[b&wpac4]

Originally Posted by hamashiachagape
More stuff has to happen than just that though...you and I both know this.

They never mentioned for instance, the Torah going forth from Zion, and also all of the Gentiles coming up to celebrate Sukkot.





Excuse me?? Do I not exist?? Or am I just here to amuse you?!? [/Joe Pesci]

Seriously B&w, you don't see yourself stopping your ears just a tad on this one?

You don't keep the Torah or celebrate Sukkot.

 

[b&wpac4]

Saw some of Brown's stuff. Did not agree with him.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Saw some of Brown's stuff. Did not agree with him.

Saw some of it, or read his books? Some of the stuff online is...decent. I kind of wish he would go into more detail on ICN Ministries. But his books are remarkable on this subject.

 

[hamashiachagape]

You seem to forget who Dr. Michael Brown is. He is an Ancient Near East language and literature scholar. One of the top 5 Hebrew scholars in the world today.

Skimming over his work online is nothing near his actual books.

At any rate, I'll leave it at this, the books are available for you to read if you ever so choose.

 

[b&wpac4]

Saw some of it, or read his books? Some of the stuff online is...decent. I kind of wish he would go into more detail on ICN Ministries. But his books are remarkable on this subject.

My parents gave me a book. Read a bit and decided I would rather read Heschel and other rabbis.

 

[hamashiachagape]

My parents gave me a book. Read a bit and decided I would rather read Heschel and other rabbis.

Hmm. Interesting, but I'd recommend reading the entire series. Reading a snip it of his first book is nothing compared to when you get into the meat. Remember, his writings are targetted to all Jews, so his first book is more introductory. The rest of the books are amazing in my view. Its because of his writings that I"m a Messianic Jew today.

 

[hamashiachagape]

If not for him, I'd be a Neo-Platonic Christian who felt sympathy for Jews. I would still be arguing with you about the early church father material, and probably would never have decided to scope out Jewish material. I'd still be following Christian traditions. I gave up a lot. And believe it or not, as hard as this might be for you to believe, it was very hard going against the traditions of my family and taking on traditions of Judaism. Imagine what a Christian family would say to the son who decided to stop eating ham sandwiches on Easter (muchless not even choosing to observe it with them) and worse, to the son who said, "I'm not giving you presents this year for Christmas."
My family, tho they are coming around, still hasn't fully understood my reasoning behind doing this. I'm seen as an outcast...as a weirdo in my family because of the Jewish practices that I have taken upon myself. But it is a great feeling knowing that I'm half Jewish, fully Jewish by the Orthodox standards, and I have relocated my roots. And I have never appreciated God more than I do now.

 

[razeontherock]

You don't keep the Torah or celebrate Sukkot.

Why do i even know what they are?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Why do i even know what they are?

In fairness.... I'd be very surprised if you followed all of the holidays mentioned in Leviticus 23.

 

[b&wpac4]

If not for him, I'd be a Neo-Platonic Christian who felt sympathy for Jews. I would still be arguing with you about the early church father material, and probably would never have decided to scope out Jewish material. I'd still be following Christian traditions. I gave up a lot. And believe it or not, as hard as this might be for you to believe, it was very hard going against the traditions of my family and taking on traditions of Judaism. Imagine what a Christian family would say to the son who decided to stop eating ham sandwiches on Easter (muchless not even choosing to observe it with them) and worse, to the son who said, "I'm not giving you presents this year for Christmas."

I am a convert from an Evangelical family who has to deal with being told my family will try to convert my children against my will.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I am a convert from an Evangelical family who has to deal with being told my family will try to convert my children against my will.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know that I'm going to have to face this pressure someday myself. My mother is a very dominating personality. But God will help us through this. He loves you and I both.

 

[hamashiachagape]

We in the Messianic community don't utilize the word convert.

Oh yeah, one other resource I think might be of some interest to you is Rico Cortez, a Sephardic Jew. www.wisdomintorah.com. He came to visit a group of mine that I attend locally. His CDs are pretty interesting too. The one of major influence to me was his teaching on is Yeshua really the true Messiah. This I would recommend to Christians too, if any are listening, as it would challenge many of their beliefs. He is not as well studied I believe as my rabbi or Dr. Michael L. Brown. Jonathan Cahn is another.

 

[b&wpac4]

I'm sorry to hear that. I know that I'm going to have to face this pressure someday myself. My mother is a very dominating personality. But God will help us through this. He loves you and I both.

Honestly, you would have to understand why I walked away from Christianity to understand that, regardless of any arguments, I know Jesus is nothing special. This is not an insult to Christians who believe otherwise. I'm only speaking for myself.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Honestly, you would have to understand why I walked away from Christianity to understand that, regardless of any arguments, I know Jesus is nothing special. This is not an insult to Christians who believe otherwise. I'm only speaking for myself.

Well, you have to understand that I also walked away from Christianity. I became a Messianic Jew. Many times I have encountered people from different ways of life who have an emotional detachment from Yeshua moreso than anything else.

But I want to give you a few reasons why I believe its something for you to at least investigate in the context of a Hebraic understanding of the Brit Hadashah, vs. a Greek context. For one, is this message of love for you? Absolutely. Romans 3:29 declares "Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too," This is a message for everybody. Yeshua declares further in John 14:6-7 "6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." According to Yeshua, if he's the Jewish Messiah, there is only one path to God. We also know that the Jewish Messiah is very important to Judaism.