Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

[razeontherock]

I remember first reading that and being really struck that it was just SO out of place! I was expecting Emmanuel, and wondering what the point was, and then this VERY clearly NOT Emmanuel name comes up, from the mouth of the LORD no less?!?

Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.

So, what does it mean, what's the significance, what's going on here?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Of course! It doesn't boost your point, so it's a reach. If it helped you, it'd be the most awesome thing.


The messiah isn't identified as God in the Tanakh, so even if Jesus is the messiah, it doesn't automatically make him God.

Actually, according to Rabbinical commentary that I've read, the Messiah is pre-existent.

Besides, see Jeremiah 23:5-6 "5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David [a] a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness."

 

[b&wpac4]

I guess when all else fails...insult?

It's an observation, not an insult. You just throw together whatever helps you, cut out what doesn't, and throw it in long posts.

Hmm, so how was Matthew sloppy? Its pretty obvious who is paying more attention to detail in this case regarding Messianic prophecy.

He likes to quote half of sentences and cut out the parts that wouldn't benefit him. Hosea 11:1 comes to mind. It's a disaster to quote the "Israel" part, so he leaves it out.
The donkey thing also comes to mind. Common usage in Hebrew would suggest one animal. He seems confused by Hebrew, so he makes it two. Jesus the Acrobat is amusing, but ultimate Matthew just got it wrong because he didn't really understand Hebrew beyond a basic level.

 

[hamashiachagape]

It's an observation, not an insult. You just throw together whatever helps you, cut out what doesn't, and throw it in long posts.

Seems like you've been doing more of this within our discourses.

He likes to quote half of sentences and cut out the parts that wouldn't benefit him. Hosea 11:1 comes to mind. It's a disaster to quote the "Israel" part, so he leaves it out.
The donkey thing also comes to mind. Common usage in Hebrew would suggest one animal. He seems confused by Hebrew, so he makes it two. Jesus the Acrobat is amusing, but ultimate Matthew just got it wrong because he didn't really understand Hebrew beyond a basic level.

Not at all, because again as we've agreed upon, the name "Israel" is first person singular.

And...where in the world do you get the rest of your stuff from? The language in its context can most certainly be referring to more than one animal in Zechariah 9:9 and does.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I remember first reading that and being really struck that it was just SO out of place! I was expecting Emmanuel, and wondering what the point was, and then this VERY clearly NOT Emmanuel name comes up, from the mouth of the LORD no less?!?

Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.

So, what does it mean, what's the significance, what's going on here?

Second problem is Isaiah 8:8 doesn't reference him.

 

[b&wpac4]

Actually, according to Rabbinical commentary that I've read, the Messiah is pre-existent.

Such as?

Besides, see Jeremiah 23:5-6 "5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David [a] a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness."

Is Jerusalem God as well?

 

[razeontherock]

Jesus the Acrobat is amusing, .

I always liked that part too Was He standing with one foot on each, like at Ringling Bros? And His brother did say every kind of beast and fish and bird has been tamed by man. Did James run away from home to join the circus and that's why he wasn't around earlier?

Forgive me ... does Isaiah speak to this at all?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Such as?

The Targum of Isaiah concurs with this "His name has been called from old, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, He who lives forever, the Anointed One, in whose days peace shall increase upon us."

Is Jerusalem God as well?

Well, thats your a priori context. I don't think so at all.

 

[b&wpac4]

So, what does it mean, what's the significance, what's going on here?

I'll point out that Isaiah only says that the mother will call him Immanuel. God tells Isaiah to call him something else. It fits just as well as Mary calling her son Jesus not Immanuel. Perhaps better, because the prophecy specifically says the mother will call the son, and we never see Mary calling Jesus that.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I'll point out that Isaiah only says that the mother will call him Immanuel. God tells Isaiah to call him something else. It fits just as well as Mary calling her son Jesus not Immanuel. Perhaps better, because the prophecy specifically says the mother will call the son, and we never see Mary calling Jesus that.

If its that important this occurs...where does it happen?

And if Yeshua is God..we've cleared that up.

 

[b&wpac4]

Well, thats your a priori context. I don't think so at all.

Just to clear up, Jeremiah 33:
16. In those days, Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely and this is the name that He shall call it, the Lord is our righteousness.

From your point of view, Jerusalem must be God, if that's an identical line used for the messiah and it means the messiah is God.



Do you mean to quote Isaiah 9:
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." ה. 6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
?

 

[b&wpac4]

If its that important this occurs...where does it happen?

Back at you. Where does Mary do it? You don't get to object to mine without answering your own.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Back at you. Where does Mary do it? You don't get to object to mine without answering your own.

Again, based off of the context I've presented, going back to (The Oxford Companion, pg. 545, that I referenced earlier) I utilized, his literal name does not need to present this reference "God with us" to the tee, if in fact his character presents this as such. I do see significance in his name being Yeshua though (God's salvation)..and the inference that according to the accounts of the Brit Hadashah, it is with us.

On the flip side, it has to be demonstrated that Yeshua is God. And again, if you want to discuss this, we can in another thread.

 

[razeontherock]

I'll point out that Isaiah only says that the mother will call him Immanuel. God tells Isaiah to call him something else. It fits just as well as Mary calling her son Jesus not Immanuel. Perhaps better, because the prophecy specifically says the mother will call the son, and we never see Mary calling Jesus that.

Ok, thank you. Relevant to this, previously it came up about knowing what Messiah means. I don't. The person here was expected to be that but G-d says name him your enemies will be plundered instead. So in what way is this Messiah? What's the significance?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Just to clear up, Jeremiah 33:
16. In those days, Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely and this is the name that He shall call it, the Lord is our righteousness.

From your point of view, Jerusalem must be God, if that's an identical line used for the messiah and it means the messiah is God.



Do you mean to quote Isaiah 9:
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." ה. 6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
?

14 " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 " 'In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; (the subject)
he will do what is just and right in the land. 16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.'



On Isaiah 9, I utilized the Targum of Isaiah.

 

[b&wpac4]

Ok, thank you. Relevant to this, previously it came up about knowing what Messiah means. I don't. The person here was expected to be that but G-d says name him your enemies will be plundered instead. So in what way is this Messiah? What's the significance?

Ok, since you are asking, messiah is an English rendering of the Hebrew word mashiach (or moshiach, Hebrew transliterations vary) which means anointed. Also, christos is the Greek word for the Hebrew word mashiach, thus you get christ.

In the Hebrew scriptures, there are many anointed ones. Prophets, priests, kings, and even Cyrus, king of Persia is referred to as anointed.

The reason we get "The Messiah" as a title is that it is assumed that the future king that will rule over Israel referred to as the son of David and such will be an anointed one, and thus a messiah, and because he is seen as the final king, The Messiah. You will not find a place in the Hebrew bible where this person is actually referred to as The Messiah.

 

[b&wpac4]

On Isaiah 9, I utilized the Targum of Isaiah.

That is not a translation per say. It's more like a theological jam session, where these ideas are thrown together.

 

[hamashiachagape]

That is not a translation per say. It's more like a theological jam session, where these ideas are thrown together.

Why are you rejecting the Targum?

 

[b&wpac4]

Why are you rejecting the Targum?

I'm not rejecting anything, I'm stating it needs to be used for the correct purpose.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Ok, since you are asking, messiah is an English rendering of the Hebrew word mashiach (or moshiach, Hebrew transliterations vary) which means anointed. Also, christos is the Greek word for the Hebrew word mashiach, thus you get christ.

In the Hebrew scriptures, there are many anointed ones. Prophets, priests, kings, and even Cyrus, king of Persia is referred to as anointed.

The reason we get "The Messiah" as a title is that it is assumed that the future king that will rule over Israel referred to as the son of David and such will be an anointed one, and thus a messiah, and because he is seen as the final king, The Messiah. You will not find a place in the Hebrew bible where this person is actually referred to as The Messiah.

Kind of, in the past tense they are.

Really?

Psalms 132:17-18. I will make a king sprout there from David's line and prepare a lamp for my anointed one. 18 His enemies I will clothe with shame, but on him there will be a shining crown."

And we already discussed Jeremiah 23:5.

Interesting "Isaiah 61:1-3. The Spirit of Adonai ELOHIM is upon me, because ADONAI has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark; 2 to proclaim the year of the favor of ADONAI and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, 3 yes, provide for those in Tziyon who mourn, giving them garlands instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a cloak of praise instead of a heavy spirit, so that they will be called oaks of righteousness planted by ADONAI, in which he takes pride.

That is directly connected to Luke 4:18-19.