Limited Atonement Refuted

[anthony55]

pate:

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners, Luke 5:32.

Of course He did, for His Sheep or People are sinners !

lk 15:

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?


5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

The Sheep He died for, were sinners.

 

[anthony55]

holyr posted:

Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Sure He did, the world of His Sheep. For the world in view here has no sin to be punished for, yet we know that their is a world to be condemend:

1 cor 11:

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


This cannot be the same world whose sins have been taken away by the Lamb of God !

You do not study.

 

[nobdysfool]

And a subtle ad hominem that I don't believe that Christ was victorious, or that he is Lord, which is a false accusation against me.

I have been falsely accused of not believing Christ was victorious, or that He is Lord. Let me correct that falsehood publicly here:

I never made any such statement (as can be seen from the quote above), but I have clearly been falsely accused of such, because someone hates Calvinism so much that they will tell falsehoods about Calvinists, rather than actually answer their questions, or deal with their statements. That person needs to repent of their false accusation.

 

[heymikey80]

us all

The "us" in context of Isaiah 53 were the Jews.

If you choose to limit "us all" to "us", wouldn't we have to conclude that Jesus died only for the Jews?

Yes, because of course, the context is not the human nation of Judah but the people of God, children of His promise:

For a Jew is not one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 2:28-29​

 

[Robert Pate]

Christ died for "All Men"

Romans 5:18, "Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift (salvation) came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life."

Romans 11:32, "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy UPON ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe."

Hebrews 9:10, But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL."

 

[holyrokker]

Yes, because of course, the context is not the human nation of Judah but the people of God, children of His promise:

For a Jew is not one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 2:28-29
​

But that changes the text. The text says "us all"; not "us all who are the children of promise".

 

[holyrokker]

I have been falsely accused of not believing Christ was victorious, or that He is Lord. Let me correct that falsehood publicly here:

I never made any such statement (as can be seen from the quote above), but I have clearly been falsely accused of such, because someone hates Calvinism so much that they will tell falsehoods about Calvinists, rather than actually answer their questions, or deal with their statements. That person needs to repent of their false accusation.

And I've been called a heretic because I reject the doctrines of Calvinism.

Where does that leave us?

Is it possible to lay aside the labels and discuss the issue?

 

[anthony55]

Christ died for "All Men"

Romans 5:18, "Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift (salvation) came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life."

Romans 11:32, "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy UPON ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe."

Hebrews 9:10, But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL."

All the elect.

 

[Ryan Collins]

I see that it says , "ALL, EVERY MAN, UPON ALL, ALL MEN, FOR ALL" but I do not see "elect" anywhere in those Scriptures.

 

[anthony55]

I see that it says , "ALL, EVERY MAN, UPON ALL, ALL MEN, FOR ALL" but I do not see "elect" anywhere in those Scriptures.

They all mean the elect, you are not suppose to see it.

 

[Ryan Collins]

They all mean the elect, you are not suppose to see it.

So you're saying I'm not the elect because I fail to see where the Bible says in those verses that it is the elect when that word is clearly missing? That is perfect. The verse means what it means and shows what it shows, why must you add words to fit your hermeneutic?

 

[anthony55]

So you're saying I'm not the elect because I fail to see where the Bible says in those verses that it is the elect when that word is clearly missing? That is perfect. The verse means what it means and shows what it shows, why must you add words to fit your hermeneutic?

I dont know if you are a elect or not, but i know you dont accept the Truth of limted atonement now, and that is because its not Gods will for you to now.

 

[Robert Pate]

They all mean the elect, you are not suppose to see it.

I am trying not to get kicked off of the Forum by being a smart ***.

I think that I will just go grind my teeth down to the gums.

 

[heymikey80]

But that changes the text. The text says "us all"; not "us all who are the children of promise".

It doesn't change the text. Who's "us" in the text? The text doesn't say "all of us people."

 

[heymikey80]

Christ died for "All Men"

Romans 5:18, "Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift (salvation) came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life."

If this is for the salvation of all men it proves too much. There' no conditional here.

Romans 11:32, "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy UPON ALL."

See the conditional? He might have mercy on all. Paul is pointing out God's mercy is not limited to Israel.

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe."

"all men". Greek for "mankind". The general term.

Hebrews 9:10, But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

"we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for all." The Greek word for "all" here is an adjective. What noun does it refer to?

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL."

Sure, a ransom is extended to everyone. It doesn't end up atoning for everyone.

Hm. Repeats instead of responses.

 

[holyrokker]

It doesn't change the text. Who's "us" in the text? The text doesn't say "all of us people."

The "us all" in the Isaiah text specifically refers to the kingdom of Judah.

As to its application to today: I see no reason why it doesn't apply to all who put their faith in Christ.

 

[heymikey80]

The "us all" in the Isaiah text specifically refers to the kingdom of Judah.

"Not all Israel is Israel." Sorry, not the case. Isaiah is prophesying from God. One kingdom is not in His view. God's not a dispensationalist. God's a Spirit, and it's spiritual Israel (note, not figurative, but spiritual Israel) that God is referring to.

Unbelievers who were citizens of Judah were not in this prophecy.

As to its application to today: I see no reason why it doesn't apply to all who put their faith in Christ.

Neither do I.

 

[anthony55]

holy:

The "us all" in the Isaiah text specifically refers to the kingdom of Judah.

No it does not, it refers to the church, the spiritual seed of abraham. Its a stretch to say Jesus christ died for everyone of the tribe or kingdom of judah, at the most a small remnant of judah, the rest were reprobates.

 

[anthony55]

hey:

Sure, a ransom is extended to everyone

No its not, the ransom was paid to God, its not extened to anyone. The ransom was paid to God for all the elect or the many.

matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

He ransomed all of the many.

 

[Robert Pate]

In the bible we have words like, "Redemption" "Ransom" "Reconciliation" These words tell us that Jesus Christ was redeeming the world back to God.

Redemption: The payment of a debt or obligation.

Ransom: The payment for the release of a person.

Reconciliation: To bring back to friendship after an estrangement.

Romans 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL.

2 Corinthians 5:19, That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.

These words reveal the gospel to us. In the gospel we have been reedemed, ransomed, and reconciled. Christ paid the price for our ransom and in doing so we have been redeemed and reconciled to God.

Jesus Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity has overcome and has defeated the world, the flesh, and the devil. In doing so he has reconciled the world to God. God now sees all of humanity and all of creation as perfect in Christ.

Jesus Christ now owns all, he bought it and gave it to God the Father. There is nothing left for Christ to do but to come and claim what is his. All things are under him, he is above all things. He even owns the lost and will judge them as he sees fit. Jesus is Lord.