Proposition 8 overturned in California

[MoonLancer]

Every slave that was freed was freed as the result of God allowing for them to be freed.

Your wrong. Liberals went to war with the south now known as the bible belt. The liberals won. the slaves were freed.

God has no causal influence over this. The bible actually says how to treat slaves and rules for owning slaves. You are very confused.

 

[Zaac]

What are you doing saying you love someone while leaving them to rot?

Actions speak louder then words.

How is telling them God's truth which will save them from eternal condemnation in the Lake of Fire leaving them to rot?

That's why you point it out to the evildoer.18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. Ezekiel 3:18-19

I'm gonna let you know.

 

[Gishin]

How is telling them God's truth which will save them from eternal condemnation in the Lake of Fire leaving them to rot?

That's why you point it out to the evildoer.18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. Ezekiel 3:18-19

I'm gonna let you know.

Prove God exists, then you can preach to me.

 

[Zaac]

Your wrong. Liberals went to war with the south now known as the bible belt. The liberals won. the slaves were freed.

God has no causal influence over this. The bible actually says how to treat slaves and rules for owning slaves. You are very confused.

The buddhist god you serve may not have any casual influence over things. But there is NOTHING that happens that the God I serve has not ALLOWED to happen. That's how he rolls.

 

[Gishin]

The buddhist god you serve may not have any casua influence over things. But there is NOTHING that happens that the God I serve has not ALLOWED to happen. That's how he rolls.

So why are you complaining about California? It was God's will! HALLELUJAH!

 

[OllieFranz]

The bill was voted in by the majority not by the minority. That is the way it works in a democracy.

The government of the United States is not a democracy. It never was and was never intended to be. It is a constitutional federation organized as a democratic republic. The two important words in that phrase are republic -- leaders are elected because of their principles, and when those principles clash with "the will of the majority, they are expected to vote their consciences, and not be swayed by the fickle whims of the mob -- and constitutional -- the Constitution comes before all else. When leaders are sworn into office, their oath is to serve and protect the Constitution.

That is my beef when a court disregards the will of the people in favor of an agenda.

No, the courts "disregard" the will of the people in favor of the Constitution -- the contract that the people signed with the government giving the government its power. Any law that ignores that contract, no matter how popular, is invalid. The contract (the Constitution) can be re-negotiated (amended), but it is not easy to do so, and that is deliberate.

Both that it is possible to amend the Constitution, and difficult to do so reflect the sentiment of the Founding Fathers that Democracy is the worst form of government -- except for all the others. They saw that all men, whether singly, in small groups, of in the collective, are venal and petty. They did not want a dictatorship, or an aristocratic oligarchy, nor did they want mob rule. The "tyranny of the mob" can be just as cruel and unjust as the tyranny of the autocrat.

It is easy enough to agree to principles as long as they are abstract, but once they become applied to individual situations, the NIMBY principle (or its reverse -- the pork barrel) and other selfish and petty concerns start clouding the issue. If the Constitution could be easily changed every time a politician proposed a tax change, or a highway, it would be worthless, and we would indeed be at the mercy of anyone who could accumulate a majority vote, whether by common goals, by bribery, or by force. By requiring that any government action must follow the Constitution, we can curb at least some of those excesses.

 

[sbvera13]

At least you're consistent. Your god has the same vindictive, do-as-I-say or burn philosophy that you do. The rest of us, we like to base our actions on this thing called compassion. Perhaps you've heard of it.

edit: re to zaac if it wasn't clear

 

[Zaac]

Prove God exists, then you can preach to me.

Prove He doesn't exist.

 

[BigBadWlf]

How is telling them God's truth which will save them from eternal condemnation in the Lake of Fire leaving them to rot?

That's why you point it out to the evildoer.18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. Ezekiel 3:18-19

I'm gonna let you know.

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4

 

[Gishin]

Prove He doesn't exist.

I don't have to. Burden of proof is on you. Prove he exists or I can reasonably assume he doesn't.

 

[Jase]

Prove He doesn't exist.

You can't prove a negative, Gishin is not the one with the burden of proof.

 

[BigBadWlf]

The buddhist god you serve may not have any casual influence over things. But there is NOTHING that happens that the God I serve has not ALLOWED to happen. That's how he rolls.

So that means God is allowing same gendered marriage

 

[lawtonfogle]

Came across an article discussing the facts cited by the judge in his ruling.

Prop. 8 Overturned: The Facts, Not the Law, Matter - Politics - The Atlantic

I am going to post them here (sorry for the length) just so everyone can see them. And to see if anyone can refute their factual nature:

1. Marriage is and has been a civil matter, subject to religious intervention only when requested by the intervenors.

2. California, like every other state, doesn't require that couples wanting to marry be able to procreate.

3. Marriage as an institution has changed overtime; women were given equal status; interracial marriage was formally legalized; no-fault divorce made it easier to dissolve marriages.

4. California has eliminated marital obligations based on gender.

5. Same-sex love and intimacy "are well-documented in human history."

6. Sexual orientation is a fundamental characteristic of a human being.

7. Prop 8 proponents' "assertion that sexual orientation cannot be defined is contrary to the weight of the evidence."

8. There is no evidence that sexual orientation is chosen, nor than it can be changed.

9. California has no interest in reducing the number of gays and lesbians in its population.

10. "Same-sex couples are identical to opposite-sex couples in the characteristics relevant to the ability to form successful marital union."

11. "Marrying a person of the opposite sex is an unrealistic option for gay and lesbian individuals."

12. "Domestic partnerships lack the social meaning associated with marriage, and marriage is widely regarded as the definitive expression of love and commitment in the United States.
The availability of domestic partnership does not provide gays and lesbians with a status equivalent to marriage because the cultural meaning of marriage and its associated benefits are intentionally withheld from same-sex couples in domestic partnerships."

13. "Permitting same-sex couples to marry will not affect the number of opposite-sex couples who marry, divorce, cohabit, have children outside of marriage or otherwise affect the stability of opposite-sex marriages."

So. Are any of these facts wrong? If so, please show your work.

I'll take number 10. Ok, I'm not saying it is wrong, but I am wondering what those characteristics are.

 

[HerbieHeadley]

Despite what your interpretation of the English Bible might have told you, there is no such thing as consentual homosexual relations being a sin in the Bible.

I have many versions of the Bible and have the tools to work them back to the original language. You can't even acknowledge the easy ones that spell it out for you.

Wearing mixed fabrics,

This is a timely but forever rule. You do not mix weak fabric with the stronger. Also, you do not sell such fabric to your brother.

eating shellfish,

Well, it doesn't make you healthy, and if you cared to kinow, you would see that this is an abomination against YOUR flesh.

wearing glasses in church,

Honestly, that's a new one. Give me a hint...

stoning rebellious children to death,

Those children that unrighteously shamed and dammed his parents with lies and financial devestation? What did the judges say?

boiling children in milk, shall I continue?

I think I know what you are talking about, but your interpretation is so laughable, I need you to tell me where to find that one.

 

[SithDoughnut]

The buddhist god you serve may not have any casual influence over things. But there is NOTHING that happens that the God I serve has not ALLOWED to happen. That's how he rolls.

So God allowed this law to be overturned? He must support gay marriage then.

Good for Him.

 

[Zaac]

So why are you complaining about California? It was God's will! HALLELUJAH!

God's will is consistent with God's word. He ALLOWs a lot of stuff that is not according to His will, thus sin.

So yes the judge in California did what he did because God ALLOWED him to do it. God will be glorified even in this man's opening the door to define marriage other than how God defines it.

 

[Zaac]

You can't prove a negative, Gishin is not the one with the burden of proof.

You're obviously confused. I know there is a God. If you want to prove that there isn't, then get to it.

 

[MoonLancer]

The buddhist god you serve may not have any casual influence over things. But there is NOTHING that happens that the God I serve has not ALLOWED to happen. That's how he rolls.

So are you really giving me a free pass and blame all the pain and suffering and the horror of this world on God? Good to know.

on a good note however it seems God supports gay marriage. Why do you fight God on such issues.

 

[Gishin]

God's will is consistent with God's word. He ALLOWs a lot of stuff that is not according to His will, thus sin.

So yes the judge in California did what he did because God ALLOWED him to do it. God will be glorified even in this man's opening the door to define marriage other than how God defines it.

So when allows things you like it's glorious, but when he allows things you don't like it's only to highlight how glorious it was when he allowed other things?

 

[Jase]

God's will is consistent with God's word. He ALLOWs a lot of stuff that is not according to His will, thus sin.

So yes the judge in California did what he did because God ALLOWED him to do it. God will be glorified even in this man's opening the door to define marriage other than how God defines it.

Maybe God disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible, and is disgraced by the Christians trying to treat his gay children like 2nd class citizens.

Have you ever considered that you might be wrong Zaac?