Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[TertiusC]

You are right- I am not willing to discuss this at all. I know I am right, and if you have a problem with that you can always come to your senses and agree with me. "Food and drink" in the context of Romans 14 is clearly a reference to kashrus alongside trief, and thus is obviously a reference within Torah discussion, so there is no misquoting there.

I don't think you or anyone on this forum is an authority on Torah observance. I know for a fact that every MJ I have ever met picks and chooses what he wants out the Torah and then throws it in the face of the Gentiles as if not doing it "their" way makes them sinners or lesser Christians. To the Jew, the irony is amazing, actually.

Look, every man and his dog who has read the basics of the Christian faith knows the difference between justification and sanctification, so your words are somewhat wasted here.

The point is that you do not heed your own teaching. If a man does not lay Teffilin, clearly commanded in the Torah, is he a sinner? Or, if he rejects circumcision, also commanded in the Torah, is he a sinner? What is the punishment of such sin?

To take it to the obvious- if a Gentile does not keep any of the Moedim given to Israel alone is he a sinner or not? If you say yes, then you must say that such people are under God's wrath and deserve His punishment. If you say no, then you are picking and choosing what parts of the Torah are binding and which parts are not.

The Torah says:

ויאמר אלהם שׂימו לבבכם לכל־הדברים אשׁר אנכי מעיד בכם היום אשׁר תצום את־בניכם לשׁמר לעשׂות את־כל־דברי התורה הזאת׃

This is affirmed in the Talmud also in many places (I will give references if you wish)

And on this the Apostles agree (see James 2:10 and Gal. 5:3, coupled with the quotes you ignored earlier as "misquotes") Because of this unbreakable unity of all the mitzvot one cannot possibly go about telling Gentiles to be "Torah observant", as Paul and James carefully pointed out- and they were in keeping with the Torah itself. To do so looks ridiculous and is a clear misunderstanding of the Torah. It is forbidden in the New Covenant. The Law of Messiah is clearly taught in the NT- and this law (which was previously revealed in the Torah, yet clarified by the unbreakable and supreme authority of the Messiah) is binding on all mankind.

It is sad that you possess knowledge far reaching, enabling great debate, yet you are unwilling to hear anything.

I would like to reply to everything that you said, I'm not defeated by your arguments. But since you will not listen, what is the point?

 

[TertiusC]

And on this the Apostles agree (see James 2:10 and Gal. 5:3, coupled with the quotes you ignored earlier as "misquotes").

And some of them clearly were. I don't think you can tell me that I'm not listening to you, essentially, if you do the same.

I am eager to listen. If you are we can continue, if not. So be it.

The more we discuss/debate the more influence you have over me to change my mind, the opposite works as well.

 

[meslit]

The irony here is that grace pushers seem to be as intolerant as their opponents.

Does this statement sound like intolerance:

"There is only one Gospel whose power and gracious freedom overcomes sin and death throughout the world. But if the Gospel's freedom is suppressed for the sake of upholding the Law (Torah), then those that put Torah above the Gospel must abandon the contradictory elements of their theology and submit their Torah observance to New Covenant principles. This does not mandate the banning of Torah observance; however, it does restrict Torah observance to that of "non-obligatory" compliance in Messianic Jewish worship and daily practice."​

Grace teachings by their name should be graceous toward Torah observance. We know that obligatory Torah observance will destroy the freedoms inherent to the gospel, so we oppose obligatory Torah observance and work to have TO teachers and believers SUBMIT their observance to New Covenant principles. That is not intolerance, that is being zealous for the Gospel!

 

[Ivy]

The point is that you do not heed your own teaching. If a man does not lay Teffilin, clearly commanded in the Torah, is he a sinner? Or, if he rejects circumcision, also commanded in the Torah, is he a sinner? What is the punishment of such sin?

To take it to the obvious- if a Gentile does not keep any of the Moedim given to Israel alone is he a sinner or not? If you say yes, then you must say that such people are under God's wrath and deserve His punishment. If you say no, then you are picking and choosing what parts of the Torah are binding and which parts are not.

Some good questions to answer and some very good points made here.

 

[TertiusC]

Some good questions to answer and some very good points made here.

If only he was open to discussion then I would be happy to answer and discuss!

 

[TertiusC]

Does this statement sound like intolerance:

"There is only one Gospel whose power and gracious freedom overcomes sin and death throughout the world. But if the Gospel's freedom is suppressed for the sake of upholding the Law (Torah), then those that put Torah above the Gospel must abandon the contradictory elements of their theology and submit their Torah observance to New Covenant principles. This does not mandate the banning of Torah observance; however, it does restrict Torah observance to that of "non-obligatory" compliance in Messianic Jewish worship and daily practice."​

Grace teachings by their name should be graceous toward Torah observance. We know that obligatory Torah observance will destroy the freedoms inherent to the gospel, so we oppose obligatory Torah observance and work to have TO teachers and believers SUBMIT their observance to New Covenant principles. That is not intolerance, that is being zealous for the Gospel!

Hmm. See what you're writing sounds good, but can you define a few things for me.

1. Obligatory Torah Observance.
2. Submitting Torah Observance to New Covenant principles.
3. New covenant. (Which covenant of the many are you talking about)
4. Freedoms of the Gospel.

If I could understand what you mean in context of the paragraphs that you typed out I may be able to understand better

 

[meslit]

Hmm. See what you're writing sounds good, but can you define a few things for me.

1. Obligatory Torah Observance.
2. Submitting Torah Observance to New Covenant principles.
3. New covenant. (Which covenant of the many are you talking about)
4. Freedoms of the Gospel.

If I could understand what you mean in context of the paragraphs that you typed out I may be able to understand better

1. Obligatory means mandatory

2. Submitting Torah observance to NC Principles means that TO MJs must preach grace principles first and then only give the option for Torah observance to their congregation.

3. New Covenant teachings (You figure that one out yourself)

4. Freedoms of the Gospel (You didn't know there were any?)

If you would like to get a good idea of what I am saying, go to the Messianic Literary Corner's "Grace Study" . It's at messianic-literary.com

 

[TertiusC]

1. Obligatory means mandatory

2. Submitting Torah observance to NC Principles means that TO MJs must preach grace principles first and then only give the option for Torah observance to their congregation.

3. New Covenant teachings (You figure that one out yourself)

4. Freedoms of the Gospel (You didn't know there were any?)

If you would like to get a good idea of what I am saying, go to the Messianic Literary Corner's "Grace Study" . It's at messianic-literary.com

I know what the words mean. I'd like your clarification and definition in context.

For instance: Does obligatory mean, you cannot be a Christian if you don't do these things? Because even saying that doesn't make any sense!

About point #2:

TO MJs must preach grace first and then only give option.

How does that make sense? How can a congregation be saved without grace? The congregation by definition should already be familiar with the blood etc.

The reason I'm asking these questions is to see if we're not possibly on the same page already. And then there would be no reason to argue.

I'd like that better than anything else.

I don't obey Torah because without it I won't be righteous. I already am. Relationship comes first.

About point #3:

The reason I ask is because so many people believe that "the new covenant" replaces all those before. I do not.

About point #4:

Which specific freedoms are you talking about in this context. That's all I'd like to know

The freedom that I'm familiar with as a Christian is the freedom from sin that grace has given me. Is this what you're talking about?

Again, the purpose of my questions is to see if we're on the same page and I think we might be

 

[meslit]

Grace is Gods unmertited love for us. We dont deserve it and we cannot attain any additional merit by our actions to attain His grace. Grace oriented teaching are those teachings that promote a believer to trust in the Spirit to provide. You stated to clarify me statement

The freedom that I'm familiar with as a Christian is the freedom from sin that grace has given me. Is this what you're talking about?

Yes, that is what I am talking about.

Now Grace teachings from the NT were mostly written by Paul. Paul was the champion freedom in the Spirit. Paul clearly denounced the false humilty that religion (in Pauls case he was referring to Torah osbervance) had upon the hearts and actions of professing Jewish believers.

Colossians 2:18-23​

[20] Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: [21] "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? [22] These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. [23] Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
Paul wants us to open our eyes to the glorious freedom we have in Grace. When we abide in Grace we don't desire the fetters of religion to hinder our walk in the Spirit. I admit though that Christianity has not helped greatly in showing Grace. We need to experience it for ourselves. God loves us even more when we stumble and cry out to him in our inability to deal with a situation. It is then that His Spirit rescues us. Torah observance as I had mentioned earlier, can add to the one's self sufficient pride, thus inhibiting our walk in Grace. I hope this explanation helps you. I am not here to tear your down, but rather direct you in a path that you may not be aware of or were diverted from.

I AM NOW CALLING IT QUITS FOR THE DAY. I WILL BE ENJOYING MY FAMILY, DOGS, CATS AND A CHINESE TAKE OUT DINER.

 

[TertiusC]

Haha, enjoy your takeout!

Agreed with Grace! Completely.

And I must agree with Paul here talking about the Jews of the day practicing Oral Torah v22 (or commands and teachings of men, clearly not Torah but Talmudic) and that it was a heavy burden.

Then back in v20 when talking about the "elementary matters of the world" not referencing Torah (also see v8 which clearly shows this). We can witness this in Galations 4:3-10! Clearly talking about Pagan days/months/seasons. He was speaking to ex-gentiles about their practices towards their gods before they were saved.

I don't see how these scriptures point us away from obeying Torah, it does point us away from pagan feasting/day keeping and from the commandments and teachings of men (Talmudic pracitices to put bondage on the Jews).

 

[visionary]

1. Obligatory means mandatory

2. Submitting Torah observance to NC Principles means that TO MJs must preach grace principles first and then only give the option for Torah observance to their congregation.

3. New Covenant teachings (You figure that one out yourself)

4. Freedoms of the Gospel (You didn't know there were any?)

If you would like to get a good idea of what I am saying, go to the Messianic Literary Corner's "Grace Study" . It's at messianic-literary.com

Most gentile who come to MJ have come from "grace study" programs and are now ready to be weaned from the "milk" and are hungry for "meat " of the Word. Hence the reason why most MJ congregations welcome the prodicals on coming home rather than conversion from another faith.

While I do agree with salting our message with more "grace" just to re-affirm our faith is in "grace" .. It would go a long way to keep he balance in context while the congregations are feasting on the meat. It will also go a long ways to making sure that no one is "working" out their salvation. .. but rejoicing in the freedoms that the Lord has provided in His Word. The biggest freedoms is from the tentricles of sin,.. How?? BY knowing what avenues that sin can invaid one's life and what to look out for. God has saved us from a multitude of problems if we but observe His counsels.. As God said, "it is the beginning of wisdom".

 

[visionary]

It is sad that you possess knowledge far reaching, enabling great debate, yet you are unwilling to hear anything.

I would like to reply to everything that you said, I'm not defeated by your arguments. But since you will not listen, what is the point?

I like the way you think..

 

[Norbert L]

... The freedom that I'm familiar with as a Christian is the freedom from sin that grace has given me...


Now Grace teachings from the NT were mostly written by Paul. Paul was the champion freedom in the Spirit. Paul clearly denounced the false humilty that religion (in Pauls case he was referring to Torah osbervance) had upon the hearts and actions of professing Jewish believers.

Colossians 2:18-23​

[20] Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: [21] "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? [22] These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. [23] Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
Paul wants us to open our eyes to the glorious freedom we have in Grace.

Anyone reading the scriptures, especially Paul's epistle's, would notice that there are numerous ideas being given that are in opposition to one another.

Colossians is only one half, for the other half there is 1Co 9:27, 10:6 "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified... Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted."

The difference between them? Col v, 22 "These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings."

Now if the Torah is nothing more than human commands and teachings, then everyone may as well become an Atheist.

 

[ContraMundum]

It is sad that you possess knowledge far reaching, enabling great debate, yet you are unwilling to hear anything.

I would like to reply to everything that you said, I'm not defeated by your arguments. But since you will not listen, what is the point?

A wise answer.

I don't think much light would be shed in any discussion on this point in this forum. We've seen it so many times. Basically that's all this forum discusses- law this, law that. That was my only intended point.

Basically the discussion ends up in the same place every time- the people who are "Old wine for new wineskins" remain in that position and the Christians remain in theirs. Nobody agrees and we just wait it out until another newcomer pops up and asks a law question. Then we repeat the very same points, and the cycle continues.

It's better to just acknowledge that I won't move my position on the topic unless God does the moving and I suspect you won't either. I'm ok with this, it's fine.

 

[Ivy]

I have to agree with you, CM, that the Scriptures you quoted a few pages back, are much neglected.

I think it is natural, sometimes, that people become fascinated with the ways and means of practice--those "seem" more tangible, and thus more satisfying (temporarily), than seemingly intangible concepts like grace. Godly self-discipline can be satisfying in a very solid way, like a good meal is.

But those times inevitably come when we don't do such a good job consuming that meal, and don't feel satisfied, especially not with ourselves. The gap between the perfection we were meant to be and what we really are is evident, and we cannot bridge that gap with something that comes in a little tin lunch box.

Only grace is big enough.

 

[mizzdy]

I only briefly scanned through this thread if its about the 'law' its usually the same old stuff. What I want to know how anyone can think Gods grace isn't found and abundant in the OT? I hear all the time its grace grace grace and we only have grace in the NT from the Messiah. Thats completely wrong in my thinking. God bestowed grace on His creation He by His grace created man, when you walk in the Gods instructions He covers us with His grace. Through His grace He gave us all a day to rest from the day to day grind of life and work. Noah found grace in the 'eyes of God'. Because of His grace He gave us a set of instructions to follow not only for our health and welfare but also a way for us to know Him, to know what or how we can have a relationship with Him. By His grace we can walk in His instructions by His grace our hearts are seen by Him. It just irks me to no end when I hear grace was not given nor seen in the OT except for the prophets that is, I hear it all the time, no grace in the OT just mean old God who made people keep rules and regulations.

As far as groups, movements etc are concerned its everywhere! the rcc says you must do this, the sdas say something else, another groups follows this way, its the same in every single denom or org. on this earth. I keep the Sabbath, I try to keep the Festivals because they belong to God and not to Moses or some org. When you go to someones house you follow the rules of that house, and whose house do we belong to but Gods? If you attend a congregation that demands or stresses what you must do or not then you just might have a problem. There are many Hebrew Roots, MJ's and others that worship together that have none of the problems written about here, and who cares if someone calls Paul Shaul? some of the HR/MJ do and some don't some get carried away some don't. Do what God calls you to do.

 

[TertiusC]

A wise answer.

I don't think much light would be shed in any discussion on this point in this forum. We've seen it so many times. Basically that's all this forum discusses- law this, law that. That was my only intended point.

Basically the discussion ends up in the same place every time- the people who are "Old wine for new wineskins" remain in that position and the Christians remain in theirs. Nobody agrees and we just wait it out until another newcomer pops up and asks a law question. Then we repeat the very same points, and the cycle continues.

It's better to just acknowledge that I won't move my position on the topic unless God does the moving and I suspect you won't either. I'm ok with this, it's fine.

An unwise response.

You say that you've seen it so many times, yet you yourself refuse to discuss what is being discussed.

You say all that is being discussed is "law this, law that". That patronizing line is getting old quickly.

It is a Messianic section of the forum, you are naive to think that Torah (Law, not law) would not be discussed. And indeed debated if a non-observant believer comes with a different opinion. I don't see your point in saying that it is being discussed, it's a very large part of this forum. You don't seem open to truth, because you possess it already. This, I will state again, is your choice.

You say that you will not change your position, yet you still attack the MJ/MG's position. "Old wine for new wineskins".

And quite a few people agree, you just don't want to discuss disagreement. Therefore you will always disagree. If you then don't like that "no one agrees", why are you still here?

Your "I will listen/discuss/change only if YHWH does the changing" position leaves no room for YHWH to work through others.

 

[TertiusC]

I have to agree with you, CM, that the Scriptures you quoted a few pages back, are much neglected.

I think it is natural, sometimes, that people become fascinated with the ways and means of practice--those "seem" more tangible, and thus more satisfying (temporarily), than seemingly intangible concepts like grace. Godly self-discipline can be satisfying in a very solid way, like a good meal is.

But those times inevitably come when we don't do such a good job consuming that meal, and don't feel satisfied, especially not with ourselves. The gap between the perfection we were meant to be and what we really are is evident, and we cannot bridge that gap with something that comes in a little tin lunch box.

Only grace is big enough.

Hi Ivy,

Are you open to discussion?

If so I will very quickly address the scriptures that you point out. I or other MJ/MGs by no means neglect them.

As for your other assertion that obeying Torah is more satisfying than Grace, I struggle to find meaning in it. If you'd like, can you please explain it. I do not understand.

Torah cannot be compared to Grace. Torah was never made to save us. Grace rescues us from the curse of Torah, that we are condemned to death because of our inability to obey it. That is the key difference. We have moved from our inability to obey Torah to our ability to obey it because we have Grace. I'm not saying that is the totality of Grace.

Saying that we sometimes fall does not mean that we should not obey, we obey because we have freedom to obey, we are no longer under the curse of condemnation by Torah, but under Grace. We can now obey Torah, and when our flesh comes out and distracts us, we can boldly come before YHWH.

 

[visionary]

I only briefly scanned through this thread if its about the 'law' its usually the same old stuff. What I want to know how anyone can think Gods grace isn't found and abundant in the OT? I hear all the time its grace grace grace and we only have grace in the NT from the Messiah. Thats completely wrong in my thinking. God bestowed grace on His creation He by His grace created man, when you walk in the Gods instructions He covers us with His grace. Through His grace He gave us all a day to rest from the day to day grind of life and work. Noah found grace in the 'eyes of God'. Because of His grace He gave us a set of instructions to follow not only for our health and welfare but also a way for us to know Him, to know what or how we can have a relationship with Him. By His grace we can walk in His instructions by His grace our hearts are seen by Him. It just irks me to no end when I hear grace was not given nor seen in the OT except for the prophets that is, I hear it all the time, no grace in the OT just mean old God who made people keep rules and regulations.

As far as groups, movements etc are concerned its everywhere! the rcc says you must do this, the sdas say something else, another groups follows this way, its the same in every single denom or org. on this earth. I keep the Sabbath, I try to keep the Festivals because they belong to God and not to Moses or some org. When you go to someones house you follow the rules of that house, and whose house do we belong to but Gods? If you attend a congregation that demands or stresses what you must do or not then you just might have a problem. There are many Hebrew Roots, MJ's and others that worship together that have none of the problems written about here, and who cares if someone calls Paul Shaul? some of the HR/MJ do and some don't some get carried away some don't. Do what God calls you to do.

Well balanced and good use of common sense.. the kind God has given you.

 

[hamashiachagape]

You are deceived by thinking that your Torah observance is pleasing to God:

Galatians 3

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

This is meant for you Visionary. The Spirit is speaking to me right now. You will not be as you are now in just a short while. The Spirit of the Lord will change you. I am not saying this on my own!

Really? You know all of this talk about grace messages brings me to think of Hasatan's conversation with Adam and Eve.....not sure why thats coming to mind right now....

The opening appeal to tradition really didn't impress me either.