Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[TertiusC]

meslit.

You have not beat anyone up with the scriptures. You have shown that you will not even consider correction of your interpretation.

You not replying/responding to other queries is your own decision. I beg of you to please consider replying to the questions raised about your own interpretation. There is no harm in questioning the truth.

Again, it is your decision.

 

[xDenax]

Why are MJ's trying to convince other MJ's not to follow Biblical Laws, Oral Laws, etc? What difference does it make to you what the other does? I don't understand?

 

[TertiusC]

We want to know what the truth is so that we can walk a road of truth together.

There is no sense in doing whatever you want.

 

[visionary]

It is getting it together to face those outside MJ with a united face...as a movement, we are still too young, there is still a lot of gelling to do ...

 

[TertiusC]

Also, if I am mistaken in my understanding of scripture (more importantly than the movement I belong to) I want the truth. I don't care about what I believe, the truth is more important than that! Wooh!

 

[meslit]

I am signing off today but will be back tomorrow.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I am signing off today but will be back tomorrow.

Not to be offensive, but how well is your understanding of the Greek and Hebrew languages? I've found it important to understand ANE languages when interpreting the Bible.

 

[xDenax]

Hmm. So it's not better to let those who feel led to err on the side of caution and be more observant rather than less observant?

 

[meslit]

Also, if I am mistaken in my understanding of scripture (more importantly than the movement I belong to) I want the truth. I don't care about what I believe, the truth is more important than that! Wooh!

The truth is that most Gentile Messianic ministires are cults. I used to be in a cult back in the 70s. Very nice people too, but they were off in practices and tended to lead others into the same errors. Once you get involved in a cult, it is hard to separate because you have invested in commitments and friendships. If you already are entangeld in a cult, you will know it. I knew it a year before I left. Eventually I started speaking up and I became a target for their criticism.

Now the Messianic Jewish ministries will varry in their cultishness, depending on whether they are grace oriented or Torah observant. The Torah observant usually are more dogmatic and lead their followers into various forms of liturical bondages that the NT warns of. The grace oriented MJ congregations are not perfect either, but there is a much better balance of committment and less of an identity crisis.

I remember attending a MJ congregation in Philadelphia back in the 70s. They wanted me to buy into to such an unrealistic psedo-Jewish mindset that they made it impossible for me to continue. Being raised a Jew gave me a little bit of an advantage in that I knew what was being phoney from real. They gave me lots of grief since they knew I perceived they were a bit off the beaten path.

Let your common sense and NT scripture be your guide. If you want to be involved in Jewish ministries, I strongly suggest joining a church that has one rather than joining a Messianic ministry. You will save youself years of healing after being judged by your peers for not being Godly enough.

If you would like to check out my internet minsitry, it's the "Messianic Literary Corner". I can't give you the link since I am not allowed to at this stage in my forum membership.

 

[Desert Rose]

Yes, its a smart rule, so there is no spam on this forums

i'd gladly post it for you, its legitimate site The Messianic Literary Corner; poetry, prophecy, grace oriented doctrine & more!


i also have a few questions that others asked as well? Arent you a bit generalising? mind you, I am a Jew who is not in any MJ cong-s, but attends ( and always was, starting with a small, home one) a church. And there are cults among christian churches , and prosperity preaching, etc etc.. So i am not being anti your statement, but there are also very good messianic congregations, i am sure.

 

[TertiusC]

@meslit

You say that there are two types of MJ congregations: Grace and Torah observant.

You will not debate scripture and do not answer questions.

I completely disagree with you that Grace and Torah observance cannot go together. Grace gives us the ability to be free from sin, Torah is the guideline to what sin is. Now that we have grace we are free to obey Torah.

When I judge a brother for sinning, like looking at pornography, it is not because I think he is not "Godly enough" it is because I love him. We need to judge righteously to save our brethren.

If you are interested in debating scripture please say so, otherwise it is pointless to have a discussion I'm just being honest about that.

 

[TertiusC]

And about Cults.

You might be right. If there is a "ministry" or "group" that preaches what the Judaizers preached then they are off the path. I completely agree.

I can say that about a lot of groups who are off the path.

At the same time I can say that we are no longer under the curse of the Torah because we have Grace. We now have the ability to not sin, by grace, so that we can keep Torah.

Torah's purpose is not to save you, it's purpose is to bless you and prolong your days. At least this is my understanding of scripture.

At the same time, sinning will curse you (sin leads to death), I'd rather not sin.

 

[meslit]

@meslit

You say that there are two types of MJ congregations: Grace and Torah observant.

You will not debate scripture and do not answer questions.

I completely disagree with you that Grace and Torah observance cannot go together. Grace gives us the ability to be free from sin, Torah is the guideline to what sin is. Now that we have grace we are free to obey Torah.

When I judge a brother for sinning, like looking at pornography, it is not because I think he is not "Godly enough" it is because I love him. We need to judge righteously to save our brethren.

If you are interested in debating scripture please say so, otherwise it is pointless to have a discussion I'm just being honest about that.

Dear TertiusC:

My apology. I am not ignoring you or running away from a debate. I am multitasking right now and will reply. Please be patient.

Thanks
Meslit

 

[meslit]

And about Cults.

You might be right. If there is a "ministry" or "group" that preaches what the Judaizers preached then they are off the path. I completely agree.

I can say that about a lot of groups who are off the path.

At the same time I can say that we are no longer under the curse of the Torah because we have Grace. We now have the ability to not sin, by grace, so that we can keep Torah.

Torah's purpose is not to save you, it's purpose is to bless you and prolong your days. At least this is my understanding of scripture.

At the same time, sinning will curse you (sin leads to death), I'd rather not sin.

There are inherant stumbling blocks with Torah observance. The obvious one is that in performing various Torah observances one becomes more and more adequate, thus becoming more confident in the flesh. Being Jewish I understand this very well. Many of my orthodox Jewish relatives perceive themselves better than than non orthodox relatives simply because they are observant in one fashion or another. It all comes down to pride. I met an MJ OT believer while working at a university this spring. He exuded the same spirit that Yeshua and Paul spoke against. Beware of the leavening that is pride. It will leaven the whole lump! You may have the freedom to be Torah observant, but will you have the wisdom to avoid its snares?

Remember 1Cor. 8:1 "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up!"

 

[TertiusC]

I can very clearly see the warning that you are giving. And I agree wholeheartedly. My pride is something that I have to submit to YHWH daily.

Like Torah is summed up, it's about loving YHWH and loving your neighbour. If pride comes, you break Torah. It's as simple as that. My pride only shows my self-reliance. I am not able to obey Torah without the grace of YHWH. I'm am wholly reliant on Him to enable me. There is nothing to be prideful about.

My escape from pornography in the past will not make me feel pride when I have a brother that is stuck in it. But I will have the wisdom that YHWH has given me to give to my brother so that he also may be free. When I see someone in sin my heart breaks because they are stuck in it. I don't feel better than them for my lack of that particular sin. But I do know that YHWH is stronger than the spirit working in them. With pride I can say that!

But back to your warning. You make a very good point.

 

[ContraMundum]

You very easily quote scripture out of context (food and drink etc) and I assume that you are not willing to discuss. And it's very easy to remove my assumption.

You are right- I am not willing to discuss this at all. I know I am right, and if you have a problem with that you can always come to your senses and agree with me. "Food and drink" in the context of Romans 14 is clearly a reference to kashrus alongside trief, and thus is obviously a reference within Torah discussion, so there is no misquoting there.

Torah observance is NOT for justification. It is a response to a relationship with YHWH. We are justified.

I don't think you or anyone on this forum is an authority on Torah observance. I know for a fact that every MJ I have ever met picks and chooses what he wants out the Torah and then throws it in the face of the Gentiles as if not doing it "their" way makes them sinners or lesser Christians. To the Jew, the irony is amazing, actually.

Because I love YHWH I do not look at pornography. Not because I think that I'm capable of doing it myself and I can prove myself righteous. I do it because YHWH himself has given me grace, the ability to be righteous! Do I accept or reject?

Not sinning isn't wrong! It's not by my own strength though, it's through grace. And I just follow that through when it comes to Torah! I believe YHWH has given us Law (not lawlessness) to show us right from wrong in His opinion (i.e. truth) and I will follow it as best I can because I am no longer under the curse of Torah (if you try to follow you are condemned) but under Grace!

Now I have grace to be able to follow Torah!

What great freedom from sin is that!

Look, every man and his dog who has read the basics of the Christian faith knows the difference between justification and sanctification, so your words are somewhat wasted here.

The point is that you do not heed your own teaching. If a man does not lay Teffilin, clearly commanded in the Torah, is he a sinner? Or, if he rejects circumcision, also commanded in the Torah, is he a sinner? What is the punishment of such sin?

To take it to the obvious- if a Gentile does not keep any of the Moedim given to Israel alone is he a sinner or not? If you say yes, then you must say that such people are under God's wrath and deserve His punishment. If you say no, then you are picking and choosing what parts of the Torah are binding and which parts are not.

The Torah says:

ויאמר אלהם שׂימו לבבכם לכל־הדברים אשׁר אנכי מעיד בכם היום אשׁר תצום את־בניכם לשׁמר לעשׂות את־כל־דברי התורה הזאת׃

This is affirmed in the Talmud also in many places (I will give references if you wish)

And on this the Apostles agree (see James 2:10 and Gal. 5:3, coupled with the quotes you ignored earlier as "misquotes") Because of this unbreakable unity of all the mitzvot one cannot possibly go about telling Gentiles to be "Torah observant", as Paul and James carefully pointed out- and they were in keeping with the Torah itself. To do so looks ridiculous and is a clear misunderstanding of the Torah. It is forbidden in the New Covenant. The Law of Messiah is clearly taught in the NT- and this law (which was previously revealed in the Torah, yet clarified by the unbreakable and supreme authority of the Messiah) is binding on all mankind.

 

[meslit]

Yes, its a smart rule, so there is no spam on this forums

i'd gladly post it for you, its legitimate site


i also have a few questions that others asked as well? Arent you a bit generalising? mind you, I am a Jew who is not in any MJ cong-s, but attends ( and always was, starting with a small, home one) a church. And there are cults among christian churches , and prosperity preaching, etc etc.. So i am not being anti your statement, but there are also very good messianic congregations, i am sure.

Desert Rose,

Yes I am generalizing, although I believe my generalizations are based on experience rather than on conjecture. Of course there are Christian cults as well as Messianic cults. I have worshipped in both churches and Messianic congregations and found some to be very good also. But speaking specifically without generalizing, there is no biblical reason to have a Gentile Messianic ministry. Thats totally against NT teachings.

 

[ContraMundum]

Desert Rose,

Yes I am generalizing, although I believe my generalizations are based on experience rather than on conjecture. Of course there are Christian cults as well as Messianic cults. I have worshipped in both churches and Messianic congregations and found some to be very good also. But speaking specifically without generalizing, there is no biblical reason to have a Gentile Messianic ministry. Thats totally against NT teachings.

I concur and agree. I think.

 

[Desert Rose]

maybe no biblical reason , but market dictates , gentlemen. There is no biblical reason to have prosperity preachers, TBN ( tv that is ) religious mafia and other similar crooks. But it sells- thus it exists! Econimics 101.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The irony here is that grace pushers seem to be as intolerant as their opponents.