Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[meslit]

Thus, all they had to do was sell Rav Shaul to MJs and supportive Christians to get the results they were looking for, that is legitimizing obligatory Torah observance within the MJM. Are you saying then that God has not legitimised obligatory Torah Observance amongst His believers?

Correct!

 

[TertiusC]

TertisuC:

Here then is my personal take on the MJM and MGM. Having been an MJ since the 70s I have a few opinions of the Gentile Messianic movement. It was originally promoted by MJ rabbis that wanted to increase the attendance in their congregations, thereby increasing their titles. Once Messianic gentiles became a norm in the MJ movement the Pandora's box of error was opened an couldn't be shut. Messianic gentile congregations sprang up everywhere, with little opposition, much like the sabatarian (7th Day Adventist) did in the past. So now, MJs denounce the largely gentile movement even though they created it. Most Jewish beleivers, including myself find it hard to worship with Torah observant gentile believers since they are so obsessive in their ways. My MJ daughter won't worship at the local MJ cong because she thinks they are strange. So what truly is the answer? I worshipped with gentile believers in a non-Torah observance MJ congreation for years. We all were who we were. There was no identity crisis and no pretense of being someone who we were not. That's basically what some of the "One New Man" theology churches are offering today. If you really want to evangelize Jews, get out of the whole gentile Messianic thing and join a Jewish evangelizing church or "One New Man" ministry that offers a sane alternative to MJ worship. The gentile Messianic movement is completely self serving. It does not reach out to unsaved Jews since any sane unbelieving Jew would not step into such a place. OK, that is my take on the whole Messianic movement.

At this time, I really dont believe there are any Messianic Jews on this thread. Let me know if I am correct or not.

If you have any questions on why I believe what I believe, I would be happy to answer.

I have a lot of things to comment on here and I'll try to be as orderly as possible. I appreciate your feedback

1. "Once Messianic Gentiles became norm, pandora's box of error".
- Can you be more clear on exactly what you're talking about? If you are referencing Oral Torah observance please say so.

2. "So now MJs denounce the gentile movement which they created"
- Would love to see some literature on this. I have only heard, just a little, about MJs regard for MGs.

3. "Most jewish believers find it hard to worship with gentile believers because they are obsessive."
- How so? Please explain. I'd like to know the difference in how the gentile believers and jewish believers follow Torah in your opinion.

4. "My daughter wont worship because she thinks they are strange."
- Nothing against your daughter but "thinking someone is strange" isn't a very good reason not to worship with them.

5. "I worshipped with gentile believers in a non-Torah observant MJ concregation"
- Messianic Jews that don't observe the Torah. That just doesn't make any sense. They then really are converts to Christianity. Not Messianic Jews. Please explain this to me.

6. "We all were who we were, there was no identity crisis."
- I don't know what this implies. Are you trying to say that Gentile believers should stay gentile believers with their heritage? And that Jewish believers the same? That gentile believers shouldn't act like they are Jews? I want to get this very clear in discussion, i.e. what you feel about this one point.

7. "One New Man theology."
- Your opinion and my opinion on how we are to worship together might be the same or very different. I believe we need to be Torah observant, it doesn't matter who "we" are. My tastes don't matter, it's Torah that matters. If my tastes (i.e. I like fast paced music instead of slow) don't interfere with observing/obeying Torah then that's great. Obeying YHWH comes first, I come second.

8. "If you really want to evangelize Jews."
- My personal reason for being Torah observant is not because I want to evangelize Jews. It's because I want to obey my YHWH. Evangelism is just one of those commands.

9. "Or One New Man ministry that offers a sane alternative."
- I won't get offended by your use of "sane", it just shows your bias. But your definition of One New Man has evaded me in this discussion. So I will not comment on it until I know what you personally mean by One New Man.

10. "The gentile messianic movement is completely self serving, since unbelieving Jews would have nothing to do with them"
- This is a very strong statement. And a conclusion that I cannot draw as quickly as you can. I have been to a local Messianic Gentile (by your definition) Congregation and they do have some practices that Karaite Jews will laugh at and some lack of understanding so to a degree I can agree with you. But I can't make such a sweeping statement if I have to include all Messianic Gentiles in the statement.

 

[TertiusC]

To be completely clear meslit.

Observance of Rabbinic Judaism does not interest me one single bit. My obedeince of Torah is specifically the written Word. Not the Oral Torah.

I frown upon any Congregations following Jewish traditions not commanded from YHWH.

Just to be clear.

 

[meslit]

TertiusC: I will reply to these questions but not now. You will get an answer before the end of the day.

 

[TertiusC]

Great No hurry. I have to get to work asap as well!

 

[visionary]

Correct!

That is the statement from which I took out that portion which I wanted you to clarify.. Sorry that I didn't put that in quotes for you.. but I thought you would recognise your own writting.

 

[Desert Rose]

it will be through the evangelism , preaching and teaching of Spirit filled Grace teaching Jewish and Gentile believers.

works only in theory If evangelism is offensive and disrespectful to Jews by insulting their traditions and Torah, then it shows just a different type of law - only in your case it's called "lawlessness"

Such evangelism is not pojecting love and Spirit filled grace. Its just pushing your own theology, thats it. nope, its not gonna attract Jews, especially not religious ones.

 

[meslit]

works only in theory If evangelism is offensive and disrespectful to Jews by insulting their traditions and Torah, then it shows just a different type of law - only in your case it's called "lawlessness"

Such evangelism is not pojecting love and Spirit filled grace. Its just pushing your own theology, thats it. nope, its not gonna attract Jews, especially not religious ones.

First of all I will address those within the body of Messiah. To submit Torah observance to New Covenant principles means teaching Torah observance in a non-obligatory fashion, leaving that as a freedom for the believer to choose. Most MJ teachings today give grace oriented believers no choice but to be totally Torah observant to leave. You must understand there is an enmity between Torah and Grace. Only when Torah is submitted to Grace can there be peace. Since Torah observant teachers choose to subvert the historicity and grace doctrine to achieve their goals their teachings must be refuted.

Regarding unsaved Jews, they view MJs MGs as either insane or deceitful heretics or both. Being sensitive to the needs of unsaved Jewish people should never be reason to compromise the freedoms of the Gospel.

 

[Desert Rose]

I addressed everything you mentioned on the previous page already.I dont disagree .I also believe that the idea that "sabbath keepers, for example, are better believers, more pleasing to Him" is not a smart thing, for its simply not true. I seen many christians that are more fruitful, and they never kept sabbath

it depends on a person.

As long as by " freedom to choose" you mean - if one wishes to be free to observe Feasts and keep sabbath, then he is free to do so.
If he says that everybody should do it- that i have a problem with...

 

[Steve Petersen]

First of all I will address those within the body of Messiah. To submit Torah observance to New Covenant principles means teaching Torah observance in a non-obligatory fashion, leaving that as a freedom for the believer to choose. Most MJ teachings today give grace oriented believers no choice but to be totally Torah observant to leave. You must understand there is an enmity between Torah and Grace. Only when Torah is submitted to Grace can there be peace. Since Torah observant teachers choose to subvert the historicity and grace doctrine to achieve their goals their teachings must be refuted.

Regarding unsaved Jews, they view MJs MGs as either insane or deceitful heretics or both. Being sensitive to the needs of unsaved Jewish people should never be reason to compromise the freedoms of the Gospel.

Do Jews within the body of Messiah have a covenant obligation to observe the Torah or not?

Regarding Jewish views of MJs, you paint with an overbroad brush. An orthodox rabbi recently visited an MJ congregation near here after Havdalah and taught from ancient Jewish sources about Gentiles who observe Torah. Then there was a Q&A session.

When he returned to his community, he had very positive things to say about this Gentile MJ congregation on his webcast.

 

[ContraMundum]

Law this, law that. Law, law, law, law.

You never hear about "the just shall live by faith", or "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God", or "for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is well-pleasing to God, and approved by men", or "This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?" or "For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." or "And by Him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses."

Such words of comfort to the sinner's ears!

All the "One Law" Mosaic law preachers can't even keep that Law properly, even though they all claim that you have received grace and the Holy Spirit in order that they can. Whatever happened to a genuine, well thought out understanding of law, grace, sin and salvation? Some people sound more and more like Jesus isn't enough- you have to add to His work on the Cross by doing stuff (that was never meant for you anyway!)

This thread really depressed me. Repent! He is alive! Keep the law of Messiah! There is liberty in Him!

 

[visionary]

Law this, law that. Law, law, law, law.

You never hear about "the just shall live by faith", or "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God", or "for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is well-pleasing to God, and approved by men", or "This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?" or "For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." or "And by Him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses."

Such words of comfort to the sinner's ears!

All the "One Law" Mosaic law preachers can't even keep that Law properly, even though they all claim that you have received grace and the Holy Spirit in order that they can. Whatever happened to a genuine, well thought out understanding of law, grace, sin and salvation? Some people sound more and more like Jesus isn't enough- you have to add to His work on the Cross by doing stuff (that was never meant for you anyway!)

This thread really depressed me. Repent! He is alive! Keep the law of Messiah! There is liberty in Him!

What is the "faith" of "the just shall live by faith" ...

How about...

Faith in God is righteous
Faith in Yeshua as the Messiah
Faith in His Law being eternal
Faith in His Kingdom

So often I see this "faith" word thrown around without it being defined...

I believe God is right
I believe His Law is righteous
I believe His Messiah is Yeshua
I believe His Kingdom is/has/and will come

 

[TertiusC]

I agree that meslit is painting with a broad brush. That doesn't mean that we should ignore his opinion and beliefs. But he also needs to agree that proper Torah observance will not chase Jews away.

Denial of Oral Torah may scare them away, or make them think about why they observe it, or try to.

When it comes to obligatory Torah observance vs. grace I can say the following.

First of all, we are saved by grace through faith. That means that we are saved, period.

I believe, and most would agree, that Torah shows us right from wrong. In that case, Torah IS obligatory. We are not to sin so that grace may abound. But if we do sin, we do not lose our salvation.

I think having open arms to new believers and helping them to obey what we have been taught (great commission) includes helping them (and me) when they stumble and teaching them Torah. I.e. teaching them right from wrong.

We obey because we love. Relationship comes first then obedience out of gratefulness comes!

 

[TertiusC]

Law this, law that. Law, law, law, law.

You never hear about "the just shall live by faith", or "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God", or "for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is well-pleasing to God, and approved by men", or "This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?" or "For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." or "And by Him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses."

Such words of comfort to the sinner's ears!

All the "One Law" Mosaic law preachers can't even keep that Law properly, even though they all claim that you have received grace and the Holy Spirit in order that they can. Whatever happened to a genuine, well thought out understanding of law, grace, sin and salvation? Some people sound more and more like Jesus isn't enough- you have to add to His work on the Cross by doing stuff (that was never meant for you anyway!)

This thread really depressed me. Repent! He is alive! Keep the law of Messiah! There is liberty in Him!

You very easily quote scripture out of context (food and drink etc) and I assume that you are not willing to discuss. And it's very easy to remove my assumption.

Torah observance is NOT for justification. It is a response to a relationship with YHWH. We are justified.

Because I love YHWH I do not look at pornography. Not because I think that I'm capable of doing it myself and I can prove myself righteous. I do it because YHWH himself has given me grace, the ability to be righteous! Do I accept or reject?

Not sinning isn't wrong! It's not by my own strength though, it's through grace. And I just follow that through when it comes to Torah! I believe YHWH has given us Law (not lawlessness) to show us right from wrong in His opinion (i.e. truth) and I will follow it as best I can because I am no longer under the curse of Torah (if you try to follow you are condemned) but under Grace!

Now I have grace to be able to follow Torah!

What great freedom from sin is that!

 

[meslit]

Do Jews within the body of Messiah have a covenant obligation to observe the Torah or not?

Regarding Jewish views of MJs, you paint with an overbroad brush. An orthodox rabbi recently visited an MJ congregation near here after Havdalah and taught from ancient Jewish sources about Gentiles who observe Torah. Then there was a Q&A session.

When he returned to his community, he had very positive things to say about this Gentile MJ congregation on his webcast.

With regards to MJs having a covenant obligation Paul states: Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." MJs are not under Torah, although many Messianic rabbis would teach otherwise.

Regarding the Jewish rabbi visiting your church and his endorsement of Gentiles keeping Torah, do you perceive him as an Godly authority given that he is not of the Body of Christ? It appears that you and others look to the wrong source for your direction. The words are clear in New Covenant teachings, why stray?

 

[visionary]

With regards to MJs having a covenant obligation Paul states: Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." MJs are not under Torah, although many Messianic rabbis would teach otherwise.

Regarding the Jewish rabbi visiting your church and his endorsement of Gentiles keeping Torah, do you perceive him as an Godly authority given that he is not of the Body of Christ? It appears that you and others look to the wrong source for your direction. The words are clear in New Covenant teachings, why stray?

Good grief.. rejoice.. rather than find fault.. A good relationship is being established with a visiting Rabbi in which one can have friendly grounds upon which to discuss our Messiah.. let's us rejoice rather than not see the good that will come out of this meeting.

MJ's are under Torah of the bible as outlined by our Messiah Yeshua, it is His understanding or interpretation, that we should follow.

As to the often abused verse of scripture...

Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

It clearly says... "DO not let anyone judge you".. with regard to the way you celebrate the Lord's feasts. IN this you are not to get the impression that you are to stop celbrating the Lord's appointed times, just don't let anyone dictate some tradition upon the way you keep it.

 

[TertiusC]

I agree with meslit's assertion about looking towards Jews for guidance. We can gather information from them by understanding early culture, hebrew interpretation etc.

But it could turn into idolatry, something I think Messianics of all kinds may struggle with.

When we say "MJs are not under Torah" we need to be careful to add that it means that we are not longer under the curse of Torah. That does not mean that we should no longer obey Torah. Two different things.

Paul himself said that Torah was both good and spiritual. The curse of Torah, condemning us because we cannot obey it, has been removed by Grace making us free from the curse of condemnation. (As an aside, this enables us to freely obey Torah because grace enables us).

 

[meslit]

Good grief.. rejoice.. rather than find fault.. A good relationship is being established with a visiting Rabbi in which one can have friendly grounds upon which to discuss our Messiah.. let's us rejoice rather than not see the good that will come out of this meeting.

MJ's are under Torah of the bible as outlined by our Messiah Yeshua, it is His understanding or interpretation, that we should follow.

As to the often abused verse of scripture...

Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

It clearly says... "DO not let anyone judge you".. with regard to the way you celebrate the Lord's feasts. IN this you are not to get the impression that you are to stop celbrating the Lord's appointed times, just don't let anyone dictate some tradition upon the way you keep it.

You are deceived by thinking that your Torah observance is pleasing to God:

Galatians 3

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

This is meant for you Visionary. The Spirit is speaking to me right now. You will not be as you are now in just a short while. The Spirit of the Lord will change you. I am not saying this on my own!

 

[TertiusC]

You are deceived by thinking that your Torah observance is pleasing to God:

Galatians 3

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

This is meant for you Visionary. The Spirit is speaking to me right now. You will not be as you are now in just a short while. The Spirit of the Lord will change you. I am not saying this on my own!

We are no longer under the curse of the Torah! Praise be to YHWH! The Torah can no longer condemn us to death (sin leads to death) but we can not freely obey it because we have grace.

Because the curse of the Torah (if you do not obey completely you are unholy therefore condemned) has been lifted because of grace (given by covering us in His blood) we are free from the curse. Not from obeying Torah, just the curse that it puts on us by it's requirement of complete obedience. We cannot be righteous by obeying Torah (I.e. rely on observing Torah), we are righteous by His blood.

I do not think that visionary relies on Torah for salvation/justification/righteousness. But truly obeys Torah because she loves YHWH.

 

[meslit]

Visionary,

You stated "I do not think that visionary relies on Torah for salvation/justification/righteousness. But truly obeys Torah because she loves YHWH."

I believe you love the Lord. Yet, I believe the Lord Himself will show you His way, very soon. I can only say that I know when the Spirit is speaking to me and through me.

Lets just give this topic a rest. It was not my intent to beat you up with the Scriptures, although I have come down to doing just that. Can you agree to that? I will be back soon.